Roscoe, the Triple-lock, has arrived

Modified · #51 12-02-2020, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikerjf

Ok, the Hi-Standard derringer then.

That thing looks kind of dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob L

I for one, like it. Would I do it to a gun that I own, no but to acquire the gun and take ti to the range, yes. As it has been pointed out, someone had it modified to be what they wanted and until you shoot it, how would you know if it was good or not. It is sure to bring out conversations at the range. Speaking fo which, would love to hear a range report once you have it in hand.

Will do.

I don't get out shooting much any more, but I've got lighting in my basement range, so I'll try to finish it up enough that I can use it a bit. Should be fine for shooting this.

Eddie Southgate · #52 12-02-2020, 09:35 PM

Well, I have finally been shown a Triple Lock that I would not own .

Keith Brown · #53 12-02-2020, 09:48 PM

Right when I saw this article I knew Sixgun would like it, can’t wait to see his display at some future Symposium, what an interesting and discussed grouping it will be ! Butchered, I don’t know, looks like the man had an idea and altered the gun to fit his want/need. Would have been better to have not used a triple lock, but in that era it was not held up as such a cherished thing by so many. I wouldn’t do it but it’s done and over with and can now be enjoyed or scorned at our pleasure. I think the back strap alteration may be an attempt to replicate the feel of the earlier big bore top break guns. If this was done in 35 and say the fella was 40 or so the number 3s and the like might have been very familiar to him.

Anyway, I’m absolutely positive it has now found it’s way home and will be enjoyed for many years.

Kinman · #54 12-03-2020, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet

Just won a gun that one of the wonderful SWCA members pointed me at.

I'm pretty excited about it and thought I might do something a bit different than my usual with this gun, and start a thread on it before I have it in hand.

The pictures are a bit lacking, but I thought there might be some fun to be had speculating about it and seeing what speculations pan out when I have direct possession of it.

I have a little bit of information regarding it to add (not from the seller, actually something I have known for quite some time that was brought to my attention by another SWCA member who is welcome to chime in and take credit for enabling me), but I think that information may spoil any fun to be had in idle speculation. So I'll hold off on it for the moment.

So without further ado, in all it's horribly butchered glory:

A triple-lock!

What are your thoughts?

Edit: After a round of speculation I added more information to Post #27 if you want to spoil your speculative fun.

THE HORROR...the horror...

NavySCPO · #55 12-03-2020, 01:01 AM

For those of us who don’t know...or those who think they do and may be wrong, why the “Fitz” treatment?

Did the guy have a genetically enlarged or mutated index finger? 🤪

All kidding aside, I really don’t know for sure, and I’m pretty sure others have the same question. I have a hard time understanding how this improved DA shooting, or anything else for that matter, but then I asked so please, fire away!

jframejoey · #56 12-03-2020, 03:19 AM

Muley Gil bet me to it but there is definitely a schofield thing going on with the blending of the frame and grip.

Kurusu · #57 12-03-2020, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messer

Would that make it a Fitzlelock?

To me it looks like someone tried to modify the TL for pocket carry (suits had bigger pockets back in the day).

Interesting timestamp piece. The rounding of the top of the grip frame looks very odd - makes me want to hold it just to see how it feels.

I think it would feel almost like a Schofield. And if so, it would not be bad.

Tytan01 · #58 12-03-2020, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet

Just won a gun that one of the wonderful SWCA members pointed me at.

I'm pretty excited about it and thought I might do something a bit different than my usual with this gun, and start a thread on it before I have it in hand.

The pictures are a bit lacking, but I thought there might be some fun to be had speculating about it and seeing what speculations pan out when I have direct possession of it.

I have a little bit of information regarding it to add (not from the seller, actually something I have known for quite some time that was brought to my attention by another SWCA member who is welcome to chime in and take credit for enabling me), but I think that information may spoil any fun to be had in idle speculation. So I'll hold off on it for the moment.

So without further ado, in all it's horribly butchered glory:

A triple-lock!

What are your thoughts?

Edit: After a round of speculation I added more information to Post #27 if you want to spoil your speculative fun.

I was watching this gun too because I thought the story was interesting. Personally, I think it's an homage to the style of gun modifying referenced in the GB listing.

Would be cool if it could actually be traced back to him.

6518John · #59 12-03-2020, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NavySCPO

For those of us who don’t know...or those who think they do and may be wrong, why the “Fitz” treatment? . . . Did the guy have a genetically enlarged or mutated index finger? 🤪

I understand it was to aid in the immediate acquisition of the trigger (your finger would not land on the front of the trigger guard in a high-stress situation). Also, and I suspect the most important, to aid in getting your finger directly on he trigger if you were were wearing heavy gloves.

American Rifleman | Sheriff's Tips: The Fitz Special—A Defense Gun from Yesteryear

mikerjf · #60 12-03-2020, 07:30 AM

Maybe true, but if you read Fitz's book section on tricks, you may draw the conclusion I did in post #26 of this thread.

6518John · #61 12-03-2020, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikerjf

Maybe true, but if you read Fitz's book section on tricks, you may draw the conclusion I did in post #26 of this thread.

Mike I saw that when you posted yesterday and meant to make this post but got busy a forgot. I knew a sheriff (actually a friend of my father and grandfather) that saw the finger-breaking maneuver happen to someone in a fight on the Oklahoma border. Moreover, I believe he had seen a miscreant grab a revolver in a “pincher” movement and bind the cylinder to keep it from firing (he carried a 1911 thereafter).

So you are 100% correct.

Kinman · #62 12-03-2020, 08:19 PM

It seems to me that if your going to the trouble of bobbing a hammer in order to avoid a possible "hooking event" on clothing that you are creating an even larger possibility by creating the great hook of the trigger area....albeit the trigger is pointing into the pocket and should not create a problem on the outward draw I do see a possibility in a scuffle of it preventing jamming the muzzle into your assailant because of clothing, etc. snagging the hook provided by removing the forward section of the trigger guard. It is an excellent design and should not be tampered with. JMHO.

ddixie884 · #63 12-07-2020, 08:18 PM

I find it very interesting and I would really like to shoot it. Then and now folks alter their personal firearms to suit their particular needs. Cooper said "personal arms were not for sale" any way and when you are gone it doesn't matter anyway. Congrats on your new custom revolver, enjoy......

Dave.357 · #64 12-07-2020, 11:10 PM

While it is not my cup of tea, he did not make it for me.
A big bore working gun.Not pretty ,but did it work for him?

Modified · #65 12-16-2020, 05:26 PM

It arrived. It's kind of glorious and I love it.

First thing to note is that the S/N is actually 11704

Observations;

- Very very interesting mark on the top of the barrel, remnant of original patent?

- Built for a right hander, the grips have a slight right hand thumb rest which is remarkably well placed. Feels really good in the hand.

- More extensive sight work then expected. Rather nice sights in fact. You will notice that there is stippling at the rear there. At first I thought this was originally a target, but immediately realized it couldn't have been.

- Action is very very nice, both DA and SA.

- Grooved backstrap

- Grooved trigger

- Checkering added to the hammer to aid in single action shooting, works remarkably well to cock it as Frisbie notes in the article.

- Re-Crowned very well.

- The semi circles on the grips were event modified, not sure why exactly...

- The gun is refinished, and I don't think factory. It has an ever so slight plumb(?), almost iridescent quality to it. Plus the third lock stud is blue which it shouldn't be. It's kind of a fascinating re-finish, it's certainly the best non-factory one I have ever seen that is obviously non-factory. Normally a re-finish would bother me, but this one is all good.

- There was some active rust on the hammer/trigger, started clearing it up, will keep on it and look for other spots. Overall however its in better "as long neglected" shape then I expected.

- There is old, blued over pitting under the grips. The donor gun was certainly not pristine when it was "butchered" up.

A couple more pictures with slightly different light:

Overall I could scarcely be happier with it.

Kansasgunner · #66 12-16-2020, 05:35 PM

That is a very neat old revolver! The stories that gun could probably tell

Congratulations on that one.

SAFireman · #67 12-16-2020, 05:49 PM

Ok, but how does it shoot

Borderboss · #68 12-16-2020, 06:09 PM

For me, it's hard not to like this gun. The work was clearly was done to be utilitarian. I'm not sure if getting it lettered to find out where it was originally shipped would help to know who might have wanted the work done, but it could if it turns out to be shipped to a law enforcement agency.

After the cleanup, I would see about fitting it with a Tyler T-Grip or a BK, and then start carrying it. It's just too cool to not.

Spajohn · #69 12-16-2020, 06:46 PM

This reminds me of chopping a motorcycle; it's usually done to an individual's tastes and may not be for everyone, and what one person sees as dangerous another sees as sexy.
Removing the trigger guard is the same thing as taking off the primary chain guard on a motorcycle. You just have to know what's what and don't wear those bell bottoms when you ride, or pull the trigger when you're getting it out of your pants.

delcrossv · #70 12-16-2020, 08:38 PM

It's interesting, I'll admit.

But just so I'm clear as to where I am on such things:

Here's a Pre 33 as I received it:

and after I finished working on it.

Modified · #71 12-16-2020, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delcrossv

It's interesting, I'll admit.

But just so I'm clear as to where I am on such things:

Here's a Pre 33 as I received it:

and after I finished working on it.

Haha, did some poor mook get brained with that trigger guard? Is that what I am seeing in those pictures?

Another thing that was pointed out to me when I was just chatting about this gun with Keith Brown is that the area forward of the trigger guard, where the Yoke connects to the gun, has also been rounded off.

It's pretty drastic actually, now that its pointed out to me. I wonder what else this gunsmith did that I'm missing?

Hondo44 · #72 12-17-2020, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet

It arrived. It's kind of glorious and I love it.

- Very very interesting mark on the top of the barrel, remnant of original patent?

That's a dingbat, that last character on the patent date/address barrel rollmark. There was also one at the front end on many pre war HEs.

Flygas · #73 12-17-2020, 01:57 AM

I was mildly interested when I first saw it in the auction, but your photos make a huge difference. If the original auction photos had been half as good as yours’, I’d have given you some competition. Love it! Congratulations on another great character gun.

delcrossv · #74 12-17-2020, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

That's a dingbat, that last character on the patent date/address barrel rollmark. There was also one at the front end on many pre war HEs.

You sure Jim? With that gun I'd guess it's some sort of motorcycle gang symbol.

Roscoe is very "business oriented" if you catch my meaning.

iskra · #75 12-17-2020, 03:27 AM

"Requiem For A Heavyweight..."

I'm with those here far wiser than me, who say to leave it alone!

Best & Happy Holidays to All!
John

steelslaver · #76 12-17-2020, 08:43 AM

I think it is pretty cool really. A example of how people make something just how THEY want it. I am sure the guy who did it gave a rats rear about what others though. He was very happy with it. The details like the grooved trigger, front sight and back strap, the work on the rear sight all testify to it being a labor of love.

Hondo44 · #77 12-17-2020, 09:05 AM

The trigger appears to be the original with custom grooving.

Modified · #78 12-17-2020, 03:32 PM

Broke out my other triple lock and snapped a picture.

mtgianni · #79 12-18-2020, 12:58 AM

That was built for a purpose and achieves it. I really like the second set of pictures.

Greymann · #80 12-18-2020, 08:37 PM

Beautiful piece what a great find.

Pig Hunter · #81 12-19-2020, 01:24 PM

Well played! Those days mods were done because the end user was pretty sure it would be used in defense of their life. Whoever did the mods wasn't a hack. Money was really hard to come by in the late 30's and that kind of work wasn't cheap. While a pristine collectable piece that is never used is desired by most collectors, to me they sterile. A handgun is meant to be a tool. Atool not used is just a hunk of metal no matter how well done. ymmv

keith44spl · #82 12-19-2020, 01:31 PM

Eighty or ninety years ago...

That is something I would have done !

.

Hondo44 · #83 12-20-2020, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet

Broke out my other triple lock and snapped a picture.

I'd love to know the weight difference of those two, or between the "Roscoe" and a 4" TL.

The more I look at it, the more I appreciate it and it's intended purpose.
I'd still need a full trigger guard and more hand filling stocks, something like these customs but in a RB:

Photo credit: jmace57

Modified · #84 12-20-2020, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I'd love to know the weight difference of those two, or between the "Roscoe" and a 4" TL.

The more I look at it, the more I appreciate it and it's intended purpose.
I'd still need a full trigger guard and more hand filling stocks, something like these customs but in a RB:

Photo credit: jmace57

Out of curiosity, who made those "Magnas", do you know?

I've seen a set just like that on a picture of one of Phil Sharpe's guns.

Hondo44 · #85 12-20-2020, 06:31 PM

I wish I knew, as I recall the owner didn't know either.

I finally made some copies for a K frame and a Baby J frame Chiefs out of damaged factory target grips I had for each.

Modified · #86 01-11-2022, 11:17 AM

The kiddos were occupied briefly with a large pile of dominos so I popped to the gunroom with a scale real quick to answer a question people keep asking me. Please forgive the quick and dirty pictures, the scale is set in ounces:

Roscoe weighs in at 34.2oz

The closest competition for carrying that I have is this pre-war snubby M&P, weighing in at 28.2oz

For reference I grabbed my Model 19 and tossed it on the scale, that weighed in at 35.85oz

At this point children yelling drew me away from this activity so I didn't have time to dig out my Triple Lock. If anyone can weigh a stock 4" Triple Lock I would love to know just how much weight was actually shaved off of Roscoe.

Messer · #87 01-11-2022, 04:15 PM

Here is my 4" - unloaded, but it has a S&W Grip Adapter (still missing the rubber insert)

Tom K · #88 01-11-2022, 04:16 PM

After re-reading this thread I have to think that if Elmer Keith had done the modifications and written about it and called it the #6, everyone would have loved it.

Modified · #89 01-11-2022, 04:28 PM

Hah, maybe. Certainly would be a lot more of them out there to find.

In any case I'm increasingly happy with the gun, every time I hold it I like it a little more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messer

Here is my 4" - unloaded, but it has a S&W Grip Adapter (still missing the rubber insert)

Hah, so he only managed to shave 5 ounces off! That's a lot of work for such little return.

Borderboss · #90 01-11-2022, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modified

Hah, so he only managed to shave 5 ounces off! That's a lot of work for such little return.

But I'm sure the handling characteristics are much better with Roscoe.

Hondo44 · #91 01-11-2022, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messer

Here is my 4" - unloaded, but it has a S&W Grip Adapter (still missing the rubber insert)

That's a beautiful TL.

Just FYI, it's fairly easy to shape the rubber piece for the grip adapter until or if you find a replacement. A rubber sanding block from the hardware store is cheap and works very well. Cut out a chunk with a fine tooth saw or hacksaw. Then sand to shape with fine grit sand paper on a belt sander or sanding disc in a power hand drill mounted in a vise. Use a small sanding drum in the power drill for the inside curve. Then drill the screw hole.

Hope that helps,

Buford57 · #92 01-11-2022, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig Hunter

Well played! Those days mods were done because the end user was pretty sure it would be used in defense of their life. Whoever did the mods wasn't a hack. Money was really hard to come by in the late 30's and that kind of work wasn't cheap. While a pristine collectable piece that is never used is desired by most collectors, to me they sterile. A handgun is meant to be a tool. Atool not used is just a hunk of metal no matter how well done. ymmv

Some time in the next 20 years someone will get on this forum and show off the "classic" M28-2 that they picked up and someone else will moan about how all the collector value was destroyed by the green front sight insert "Bubba" added. If I live to read it I will plead guilty to commissioning the desecration and point out that if the name of the smith who did it appeared on a custom rifle they'd all drool. Then I'd mention how visible it was in a dark alley against a white outline.

Muley Gil · #93 01-11-2022, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modified

Hah, maybe. Certainly would be a lot more of them out there to find.

In any case I'm increasingly happy with the gun, every time I hold it I like it a little more.

Hah, so he only managed to shave 5 ounces off! That's a lot of work for such little return.

5 ounces can mean a lot if you tote it for 8-12 hours a day.

I carried a 5" full lug M625 .45 ACP for a while as my duty revolver. It soon got too heavy, especially when your Sam Browne has a radio, cuffs, extra ammo, baton, Gerber tool, pepper spray, etc.

At the time, S&W didn't have any 4" Mountain Gun barrels in stock. I found a 3" full lug barrel and swapped that on. It made a big difference.

moosedog · #94 01-11-2022, 04:45 PM

I realize that many people live in warmer climates than we do here in the
mid-west, so it's hard for them to visualize trying to get your gloved hand into the trigger guard and positioned on the trigger with a lined glove like Midwest police wear.
I applaud your new purchase even though it makes me miss the ones that I've had over the years. A truly iconic example of a hideout gun from the glory years of law enforcement when men used firearms that they tailored to their needs instead of the plastic fantastic, one size fits all ideology of today.

mikerjf · #95 01-11-2022, 07:13 PM

Roscoe is still my all-time favorite here. There's a 1917 that's close.

ironhead7544 · #96 01-11-2022, 08:47 PM

I read somewhere many years ago the the cut trigger guard had a second reason. It could be "fanned" by using a karate chop on the trigger with the off hand.

The Commissioner on "Blue Bloods" has a Fitz Special that was handed down to him.

6string · #97 01-11-2022, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modified

Well awesome, everyone seems to be having fun with this thread! I had really hoped as much. This gun I believe is a type that elicits strong emotions. I love that kind of gun.

Jim summed up a lot of what people have said, I've taken a snippit out here:

First off, I did get it for a low price, not peanuts, but a price that is low enough I am very pleased with the gun, despite it's issues (I must admit that I, like most of you, find the fitz job in particular to be horrifying).

I intend to do nothing to the gun aside from cleaning it well, hopefully finding a nice Star on the butt (and getting corresponding SWHF documents, hey a guy can dream can't he?), and maybe trying my hand at making additional grips for it. I have this dream of learning how to jig bone, but that's a topic for another day.

I believe some, or many, of the questions people have regarding the gun are answered in an article out of the March '35 American Rifleman, along with (what I believe you will agree with me on), a firm resolve not to actually change the gun.

When this gun was pointed out to me I recognized it instantly as an example of Frank Frisbie style butchery, particularly the "complete removal of the much-cussed hump on the grip".

As sad as it all is, the way that Frank fully admits what he did horrified collectors... in 1935 no less... well there's a certain charm there to me.

I hope you all get as much entertainment out of our poor butchered Roscoe as I already have, even before having it in hand.

Oh, last note: this is obviously not the gun in the picture. The sight is different, and the stocks are obviously different. However this gun clearly was inspired by (or maybe inspired?) Frank.

My hope of course (being me) is that someone was reading their new copy of American Rifleman, and found this article, and thought; "This frank guy is onto something, I hate that much cussed hump too! I think I'll send it back to S&W with a copy of this article and have them improve this gun to Frank's specifications!"

Of course I doubt that will happen, but it's fun to dream about.

For some reason, this article by Frank Frisbee changed my opinion on first viewing the original post.
Assuming the modification work is well done, then it seems to have a real historical, and perhaps practical or even aesthetic, value.

As an analogy, it's worth noting that of all the extant Stradivari violins, only one is in its original, unmodified state. Praised for their tone, the Stradivarius violin was treasured for the particular arch and contour of its top which allowed it to be restrung with higher tension steel strings. Everything else was up for grabs: lengthened neck shafts grafted onto the original scroll, new fingerboards, new bridges, new tailpieces, altered string angles. Just about everything.
I think old Antonio would be shocked to see his work held in such high esteem all these centuries later, even if not in the same form in which he created it.

Muley Gil · #98 01-11-2022, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironhead7544

I read somewhere many years ago the the cut trigger guard had a second reason. It could be "fanned" by using a karate chop on the trigger with the off hand.

The Commissioner on "Blue Bloods" has a Fitz Special that was handed down to him.

When I went to the po-leece academy in the 1970s, the firearms instructor loaded his M13 with .38 specials and using his index and middle finger, fired all six rounds down range in about 1 second.

mikerjf · #99 01-12-2022, 06:10 AM

Re: Fitz, read his book - he has a whole section on "tricks" to let you twist away an opponents gun, while breaking his trigger finger.

I immediately realized that, with a cut guard, that didn't happen.

He doesn't spell it out, but clearly this was a primary reason for the mod.

StrawHat · #**100** 01-12-2022, 07:50 AM

Not a Fitz Special, not even a New Century but it is 45 ACP and weighs 35.6 ounces.

I carried it for a long time until something else got my attention.

Kevin