Hello I have an early triple lock cal. 455 is strange that it has an adjustable rear sight and a pin front sight, as well as a checkering trigger.
can you tell me what kind of model it could be?
I once read of a "Bisley - model" but unfortunately found no pictures.
It has some English proof marks.
The Ser. No. is 1519
Thanks in advance
Christian

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Welcome to the forum! And that’s an impressive first post. I believe what you have is a Military Target revolver. The rear sights are drift adjustable to meet the match requirements. Hondo44 will be along to give you much more details about these revolvers. Very neat old gun.

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Tim
SWCA #2697

Here is a picture of the bottom handle there is a 4 that is maybe the serial number

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S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild10.jpg (58.7 KB, 390 views)

Let's see what others think, but I think yours is an after market modification.

First, the lanyard ring style is incorrect. If Smith & Wesson had placed that, they ould have situated the serial number not in the centre of the butt but offset to one side. I think to the rear and not to the front, but I could be wrong. Also, a portion of the original serial number would not be peeking through. If that is a "4", then the serial number ends in a 4. I think what you think is the serial number is an assembly number.

The serial number can be found in multiple places but the easiest for you, as the one on the butt is obliterated, is to look in the ejector rod shroud. You provided a photograph of that, but I cannot see what exactly it is.

Interestingly, this has the non medallion stocks, which suggests this particular revolver was assembled pre mid 1910. Which is interesting in itself, as independent of the after market sight modifications and probable after market checkered trigger, these stocks were affixed to a revolver which is in .455 Webley but long before the British Contract of circa 1914. So, what is anyone's guess as to the FIRST .455 Webley Triple Lock ever assembled?

Of course, these stocks may have originated from an earlier gun, which is possible, although unlikely, as the non medallion stocks are much rarer than the later medallion ones.

This is my best guess from the photographs provided, but I could be wrong. A factory letter using the actual serial number and not the assembly number could prove helpful.

The 4 is definitely part of the serial number ... the 1519 is an assembly number and not the serial number. The lanyard loop was added after the gun was initially produced. If it was added by the factory (either before it shipped or if returned to the factory) the full serial number will be stamped on the left side of the grip frame (under the left grip panel).

There are several other placed the full s/n appears but start by looking on the rear face of the cylinder.

Very nice Triple-Lock ... and welcome to the Forum.

Russ

Well, I have seen any number of aftermarket modifications adding a "drift adjustable" rear sight. Without exception, the width of the sight was the same as the width of the frame--suggesting the need for a punch to "drift adjust" the sight-----and suggesting they who performed the modification were not too bright. So be it.

Your sight would appear to be "drift adjustable" without the use of a punch, and that made me sit up and take notice.

The bottom line of all this is: Get a letter. There are no alternatives. We can sit around and jaw jack about all this until the cows come home, and accomplish nothing----maybe a little less. Get a letter!

Ralph Tremaine

And having said all that, there is one matter to tend to before ordering the letter; and that is determining the actual, real, honest to God serial number-------and proving it with a photo of where you got it.

There is a number in the front of ejector rod shroud, 40?4. Also on the rear of the cylinder.

In the ejector housing and on the drum it says 4054 that would also match the 4 as the last digit of the serial number next to the ring hole.
Than the serial number is 4054

Here a pic

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And cylinder

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IMG_2984.jpg (46.8 KB, 294 views)

Bigger pic from the cylinder

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S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild6.jpg (55.1 KB, 259 views)

Okay, 4054 It is!

Send for a letter today and be sure to post it once it arrives.

With the backlog, this will be around 01 March.

Another point of interest. I do not see any military acceptance marks, but apparent commercial proofs on the cylinder. Definitely rates a letter.

Bob

Dolf, welcome to the forum, thanks for giving us an early Christmas present. You have a very interesting Triple Lock.
Could you share with us just how it came into your possession? And, I wonder if you are from Great Britain, as you phrase things slightly differently than American born and raised enthusiasts would.
Looking forward to more info.

WR

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God, Country, Family

That is a nice looking revolver. As befitting a target model, it appears to have been shot a good bit.

I wish somebody was putting on sights like that now.
We have highly customized police trade in revolvers but still with the hog wallow rear sight.

Dolf,

Thanks for sharing your very interesting and rare S&W!

Clearly not a military contract .455 with its 7 1/2" barrel and 4054 serial #, rather a rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Model factory chambered in .455. Maybe only about 40 or so estimated.

The few .455s ordered before the BSRs were typically ordered for Bisley matches in England and therefore with Bisley match rule conforming improved sights. Since S&W's adjustable target sight did not conform, they accommodated the need as I believe they did with your gun. They are often referred to as the "Military Sight", they have nothing to do with the military and I call them "Bisley Sight". Front sights on these factory installations vary depending on customer specification.

However I'd appreciate closer photos of the rear sight from the back and the side, because it does appear to be a factory installation from what little I can see. And as posted above, a S&W authentication will confirm and is the only way to confirm. The checkered trigger also appears to be factory of which we've seen several.

Here are photos of S&Ws installation for you to compare with:

Factory sights that letter as original and shipped to England here Post #7:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...#post137992489


Photo courtesy of Masterpiece


Photo courtesy of Masterpiece

Factory target checkered trigger:




Another letter confirmed factory slightly different Bisley sight:

Photo by red9

Your grips are the correct style however not likely original due to the poor fit. Check the back of the right grip for serial # in pencil.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Sometimes one needs to pick up a book every now and again.

Having not seen one before, I was not aware of the British Target variation.

The latest edition of SCSW states these were produced in the 4100 and 4300 range. 4054 isn't too far away.

The book states that those in .455 Webley were produced beginning in Sept 1914. My guess is that this is in reference to the military production for the British government. If this is applicable to all production, then the non medallion stocks are likely not original. If there are exceptions to this, and this shipped earlier, then the stocks very well may be original.

Although uncommon today, there would have been a time when the non medallion stocks extant exceeded the medallion ones or were not much less common than the medallion ones, so switching them out would not have been unusual, medallion for non medallion, etc.

Also, I own two Triple Lock revolvers, both of which shipped in 1913, and they have non medallion stocks. I am 99% confident that both have the original stocks. As Smith & Wesson did not ship in the order assembled, I'm confident both of these were assembled mid 1910 or before.

So, it's possible that this revolver might have shipped at a much later date and still has non medallion stocks. Or maybe it shipped well before September 1914 as it is not of military production.

Jim, that's a very detailed answer.
Thank you so much for that.
yes you are right, the right grip is without a number.
Enclosed you will find pictures of the sight.
Then to answer further questions from other members of this forum, I come from Germany, have a gun shop here and the revolver belongs to a friend of mine.
He brought the revolver with him from Afghanistan in the 1980s.
If the revolver is really a complete factory production, how would you estimate the value in this condition?
The barrel is as shiny as a mirror and the timing is excellent.
Such revolvers are rarely offered here in Germany, so I have no feeling for the price.
I can just send an e-mail to S&W about a S&W letter about the revolver with pictures and ser. No. and then get an answer at some point, or how does it work?
Thanks in advance
Christian

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	S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild12.jpg (41.7 KB, 171 views)
	S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild13.jpg (61.7 KB, 180 views)
	S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild14.jpg (49.2 KB, 173 views)

Here's how to order a letter: Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

Afghanistan? Tha revolver has had an interesting life, no doubt! It may have traveled there in the latter days of the British Empire in the hands of an officer or an enthusiastic shooter (ambassador, consular staff, etc?) and then been left marooned in the Middle East on the passing or reassignment of whoever owned it. It's been somewhere, or perhaps many places over the last 100+ years, and if it could talk, the stories it could tell would likely amaze us all.

As for value, that old, that model, and virtually unaltered? If placed at auction here in the US and a couple of determined bidders in attendance, and the price would quickly go into the stratosphere! I'm not familiar with the German gun market and your laws, but that is a significant enough piece that you could probably get interest from one of the international auction houses to handle it.

Tell your friend congratulations, and to you welcome to the forum and thank you for showing us a significant piece of S&W history!

Regards
Green Frog

What I also noticed is that the drum has a British test mark Krone BV on each of the 6 bores and 2 times on the root of the barrel.
Best Regards
Christian

Dolf, welcome to the Forum and thank you for posting such an interesting revolver. I know it is difficult to place a price on uncommon specimens, but just to offer a data point that may get a conversation going, I would think any knowledgeable collector would be willing to pay USD 3500-4000 for that revolver in that condition, and if two deep-pockets collectors clashed at auction over the question of ownership, the price could go significantly higher. I doubt that it would go into five digits (which is another way of saying that I couldn't afford it if it did), but it is definitely a specimen of some historical appeal and therefore value.

A couple of production footnotes: drift-adjustable target .455 revolvers with 7.5-inch barrels are known with serial numbers 3971 and 4060. S&W shipped the former in March 1909 (along with seven identical specimens whose serial numbers I do not know) to an individual in Birmingham, England. The latter revolver was shipped to England about three months later, but I do not know the recipient's identity or if the shipment included more than that one revolver. Other target Triplelocks bearing four-digit serial numbers in both .455 and .44 Special were shipped in 1909-1910.

As mrcvs noted above, the first military contract .455s were produced and shipped in late 1914. I have an early production specimen (serial number 358) that shipped in October of that year. A point to bear in mind is that the .455 contract revolvers were numbered in their own serial sequence, so we should expect to find duplicate serial numbers on .455 revolvers in the 3900-4400 range, with the adjustable sight guns being of earlier manufacture and the fixed sight specimens coming along about five years later. This was implicit in a comment from Hondo44 above, but I wanted to stress the fact that duplicates will exist. And to be clear, the 3900-4400 range I mentioned is arbitrary; I just used round numbers to set boundaries for the known .455 targets, however many of them there may be.

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David Wilson

Dolf,

Thanks for the additional photos. You can probably tell comparing them to my photos I posted, of the most common factory installation,that your rear sight is exactly the same shape!

FYI" drum = cylinder, and root of barrel = frame end of barrel.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

OP, thanks for sharing this. This forum is an education a minute. I have know there were .455 S&Ws made for British use but never knew they were made this early and in target configurations. Yes, if it came thru the Afgans, I am sure it could tell true stories much stranger than fiction !!!

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

"Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Models factory chambered in .455."
Including a pre Brit Contract special order TL subset of 25 standard .44 1st Model TLs in the .44 serial # range chambered in .45 Eley with 5” barrels, shipped Nov. 1, 1912. Thx to Jim Fisher for bringing these to our attention and sharing documentation! Maybe 40 or so misc. 455s total.

A Scarce 5 Inch Triple lock shipped to Canada in April of 1915

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Jim
S&WCA #819

All I can say is "Wow!" -as I follow along, clicking pictures and the above thread link (thanks, Jim).

What a fascinating story and journey of this TL posted by Christian, the OP.

I'd like to believe that you, the S&W cognoscenti, are preparing me for that great day when I come across my first 1st Model.

Once again, the knowledge exhibited and shared here makes this the "head-and-shoulders" greatest repository of all things Smith & Wesson!

Thank you!

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Veteran Paratrooper, '86-'90

I loved reading this thread. Thanks to all who contributed to my education about this unusual gun that pegs the "cool meter."

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

My thoughts-

That checkered trigger is almost certainly Factory. They offered checkered triggers in that period, and that is exactly how they were checkered.

That swivel is a British swivel. Find a pic of any 38 or 455 Webley revolver and compare it. I own a couple of S&Ws with the same swivels added after arriving in England.





You nailed it. It is a 44 Military that was ordered in .455 caliber. Since it is #4054 of the original 44 serial number series, it may have shipped early enough for the grips to be original non medallion type. I think they fit so poorly because they have been sanded.



We know that there were some 455s built long before the British military contract guns.
In 2016, I discovered the earliest 455 TL that I have knowledge of. It shipped in 1912, and it was also the first five inch 455 that any of us had ever seen. Since it went to Canada, it has no proofs of any kind---













The barrel had no caliber marks and no "Smith & Wesson"---

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I've just spoken to my boyfriend again.
He bought the revolver in Kabul in 1975 for the equivalent of € 400.
the revolver was also entered in his passport, which was done at that time.
Unfortunately, he removed the color hardening that was still clearly visible from the trigger and hammer.
He also shot the revolver and found it shot high, but I think "Bisley shooting" shoots at a great distance, which would go with it.
He sends me a copy of the old passport with the entry.
Since I am very curious now, I have applied for a S&W letter.
when the letter arrives, i will post a copy.
Thank you for your kind help with identification
Best Regards
Christian

forgot, the caliber information is not on the barrel either, but the smith & wesson company information is on top.
Ans two british proof marks.
Christian

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S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild15.jpg (25.5 KB, 72 views)

The proof is quite old. The lanyard ring is a 'Birmingham trade pattern' which can be found fitted to many arms, then and later. My 1851 Navy Colt has a similar one.

Let's see. Built in Springfield, Mass, shipped to Great Britain, where it was proofed for sale, probably bought by a military officer, who was later stationed in Afghanistan, where it was, most likely, either lost or stolen. Later on, it is sold in Kabul in 1975, then brought back to ?????

Quite a history. When I was in Afghanistan, 2004-2007, US citizens could only bring back pre 1899 (ATF definition of antique) firearms.

Dolf, are you and the Triple Lock here in the US?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

As an aside, and relative to the jumbled up shipping dates sometimes/often(?) seen with TL's, I'm told my 7 1/2" target #3976 is a first year gun (08), and was shipped February 23, 1909. My other, a 6.5", fixed sight (now a King Super Target) #10688 left on October 9, 1915.

Ralph Tremaine

Then I think that this one won't be much younger either.

Non-S&W similarity:
Back when a free Englishman might own a revolver, I subscribed to The Handgunner, Ltd. One of their regular dealer advertisers showed a picture of the company team with their six consecutive numbered Webley WS Target revolvers. They were 7 1/2" squarebutts, like a long Mk VI.

Probably zeroed for a six o'clock hold which would look high if he expected it to shoot to point of aim.

What I only became aware of today, the revolver has a barrel length of 7 1/2 "the military British had 6 1/2" right?
Then it would definitely have to be a civilian versoin before the military production?
Best regards
Christian

Dolf,

Yes, the gun you show is a civilian model from well before the British 6 1/2" barrel military revolver order.

I'm afraid your misunderstanding of the term used above, "Military Target revolver" had confused you early in the thread: the term "Military Target" refers only to the factory sight installation, the revolver is not a military revolver.


Please review post 16:
Hope this helps,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Dolf, that's correct. The few non-military .455 target models had 7.5" barrels and were manufactured four to five years before the first military contract .455s with fixed sights and 6.5" barrels went into production.

The proof marks on the barrel look like the crown-above-BV type, which are one of the many known Birmingham proofs. One in your photograph is legible despite being slightly blurry. The other is more blurred, but looks as though it may be a weakly struck imprint from the same stamp.

As to shooting high, I am not surprised. The front sight on .455s is quite tall on the fixed-sight models that have the in-frame rear notch. The drift-adjustable rear sight has a notch that is slightly higher than the frame notch, so the front sight would need to have a corresponding increase in height in order to maintain the proper impact point of the bullets fired from the revolver. Instead, the front sight is much lower than the standard fixed-sight height. Such a configuration may be appropriate for long-range competitions, but it is a prescription for hitting high when shooting at closer targets. Since the front sight is removable, it can be replaced with a taller sight for use at shorter distances.

Now that I think of it, can you ask your friend to take close-up photos of the front sight from the side, top, and angling down on it from a little above, behind, and off to the side? I'm wondering if it is possible that the site is damaged and that a top mounted white or brass bead may have been broken off.

EDITED TO ADD: I see that Jim got his comments posted first, which often happens when we both want to say something about a specific point. I used to be able to type faster than I do now.

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David Wilson

I thought the front sight might have been filed or damaged.

A lowered front sight causes a firearm to shoot higher and this could explain why it shoots high.

I also think something broke off.
I still have a picture and a brass ball is definitely not on top.
Christian

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S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild17.jpg (27.1 KB, 92 views)

But i can quickly order a new one from smith & wesson

Probably not, since that gun had a century-old vintage sight. But there are companies that specialize in old gun parts, and there may be some members of this forum who have small parts collections that include a sight of the specific height and general type that you need.

You might like to look at this: 7 1/2 Triple Lock Target Find

That thread has some discussion about early triple lock targets that may provide some information relevant to your friend's revolver. The one that leads off that thread is chambered in .44 Special and has a rear sight capable of elevation as well as side to side adjustment. But the front sight is very possibly the one that would have been installed on the .455 we are discussing in this thread. Such sight blades were manufactured with different heights above the sight base. These sight choices differed by only a few thousandths of an inch, and you would need to know which one is correct for a firearm with a rear sight that could not be adjusted for elevation.

There may be another problem here that I am sorry to bring up, but the pin that retains the current short blade looks oversized and placed too high to me, and the inserted blade does not seem to be seated fully in the slot in the sight base. If you do find a replacement Sheard bead sight (or its equivalent), it might take some careful fitting of the blade to the base and some precise drilling of the foot of the new blade to permit reuse of the current large pin.

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David Wilson

I made the pin because the original one wasn't included.
Unfortunately I don't find any pictures of sights in your link.

There are no close-up photos of the sight in that thread, but the first post has images of the entire revolver that can be enlarged to see the sight profile.

Here are a couple of other links that show Sheard (Marbles) bead sights more closely. The relevant images are included in the top post of each thread.

Finally got my 38/44 Outdoorsman home

M&P 1905, 4th Change Target - Pictures Added

What I am trying to show with these pictures is the basic profile of the sight blade you should try to find, not the specific height or minor features like the grooves you can see on one sight's thin edge. The guns in these two threads were produced in the 1930s, so they are several years younger than the .455 we have been discussing.

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David Wilson

Today I removed the cover plate and found a patent date on the trigger spring housing you know that too
Best Regards
Christian

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S&W Tripple Lock .455Eley Target Bisley Bild18.jpg (81.7 KB, 58 views)

Christian, one thing that I do before taking a side plate off, is loosening the main spring screw at the base of the grip. This removes the tension on the hammer stud. As the side plate has a corresponding divot in it that aligns with the stud. Un-supported, it could break off.

WR

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God, Country, Family

I finally received the letter, but it doesn't convince me what do you think?

Attached Files

S&W Letter Triple Lock British Government.pdf (221.7 KB, 105 views)

I believe it was looked up wrong. No doubt a British service revolver #4054 in the British serial # range was produced, however, never with a 7 1/2" barrel, custom Bisley sights and checkered trigger.

First there was a #4054 TL Military model revolver produced in the 44 spl # range but factory chambered in .455. The # (most #s) was duplicated but in the British contract serial # range about a decade later.

No offense to Don Mundell who assists Roy Jinks with historical letters, but I believe it was looked up incorrectly in the shipping records. I would call Roy and have it looked up in the .44 Spl Military 'Triple lock' serial # range, and once he confirms it, request a corrected letter.

Call Smith & Wesson @ 800-331-0852 and choose option 7 on the menu when the 'machine' picks up. The Historian, Roy Jinks, will come on the line if he's not out of town. Give him the serial number, refer him to your letter and the details of your gun, and he can look up the # in the .44 Spl Military shipping records from the factory. That will confirm the correct identity and configuration of your very unique gun.


Also refer Roy to post #28 in this thread. Roy knows Handejector and that he knows as much about these as anyone. Also as he posted, the lanyard ring in the butt is not a S&W lanyard ring like all British service revolvers had. Drilling thru the butt serial # ws not done on the BSRs, but could be a factory installation however only if it has the serial # also stamped on the left side of the grip frame near the bottom. If not, the drilling was not done at the factory. The BSRs had the serial on the butt offset so the # would not be drilled thru.

Let us know what you find out.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Now I've received a second letter about my revolver, I think it's better.
Best Regards
Christian

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S&W Letter June 2021ohne Adresse .jpg (58.7 KB, 118 views)

Yep, now that's that a correct letter!

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Jim
S&WCA #819