1917 S serial number question

JChandler · #1 01-02-2021, 05:12 PM

I recently acquired a 1917 S prefix post war. In pretty good condition and I “think” the original holster purchased with it. Don’t know a whole lot about these. We’re the cylinders of a post war different from the pre wars? Hardened differently?
Thanks for any info regarding this

Hondo44 · #2 01-02-2021, 05:58 PM

Welcome to the forum.

That's a beauty! I'm sure you know not to store the gun, any gun, in a leather holster.

Yes a very early post war, early enough to be a Transitional Model, i.e., just like a pre war except it has the post war sliding bar improved hammer block. It even still has the pre war barrel knob on the extractor rod and sharp shoulder Magna stocks.

When introduced in 1917, that model was the first S&W hand ejector to have a heat treated cyl. However, beginning during WWII, improved steel was used that no longer required heat treatment by ~1945 when heat treating was eliminated except for mag cartridge chambered guns and apparently including the 38-44 models.

However, I would not be concerned about any difference in cyl strength whether heat treated or made of improved steel. As a practical matter, it's a non-issue.

Hope that helps,

JChandler · #3 01-02-2021, 06:02 PM

Thanks Jim!
Yes I wont store it in the holster(I think that’s where its been most of its life)
I was trying to narrow down what I could shoot through it, If I do I will just stick with standard velocity 230 ball.

Wiregrassguy · #4 01-02-2021, 06:11 PM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! You should be able to shoot any standard pressure or +P commercial ammo in it. It was designed to shoot .45 ACP military ball which was a little more powerful than current .45 ACP +P.

JChandler · #5 01-02-2021, 06:17 PM

Thanks for the info, I got a few packs of Wilson’s moon clips to go with it. Can’t wait to try it out

murphydog · #6 01-02-2021, 06:21 PM

It should shoot jacketed .45 Auto well, especially 230 gr (for which it was designed). I recall reading that lead bullets don't work as well with the shallow barrel rifling.

Wiregrassguy · #7 01-02-2021, 06:28 PM

Mine don't shoot my cast lead bullets as well as jacketed bullets. They tend to tumble and keyhole.

Hondo44 · #8 01-02-2021, 06:38 PM

I would not worry about +P .45 ACP. But I would not use a steady diet of it even in a gun rated for it! It's not going to blow up the gun, it's just unneeded excess wear that does cumulative damage. Not unlike wear to your car if you always drive it at full throttle.

Muley Gil · #9 01-02-2021, 07:03 PM

Welcome to the Forum.

Holsters of that style were being sold on the commercial market from the '40s at least in to the '70s. It is not a military style.

Art Doc · #10 01-02-2021, 07:08 PM

New one on me. Never knew there was a post WW II 1917 with an S serial prefix. I thought the 1937 Brazilian Model was the last incarnation of the 1917.

Wiregrassguy · #11 01-02-2021, 07:12 PM

Instead of 70 mph speed limits, let's all drive at 55.

Ooops. Been there, done that.

Frank, the .45 HE Model of 1950, pre-model 22.

Jack Flash · #12 01-02-2021, 07:41 PM

It looks great, I can't believe it has been stored very long in the holster.

The standard .45 ACP is a pretty potent round in its own right. Plus you're not restricted to FMJ. Bullet profile doesn't cause feeding problems in a revolver so any soft point, hollow point, etc., will work fine.

My point is, no need to worry about +P unless you want to start a yet another "best handgun for bear" thread.

StrawHat · #13 01-02-2021, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Doc

New one on me. Never knew there was a post WW II 1917 with an S serial prefix. I thought the 1937 Brazilian Model was the last incarnation of the 1917.

Nope, the 1950 Army was built on the new, short action N frame starting in 1950 along with the 1950 Target Model in 45 ACP The fixed sighted 1950 Army became the Model 22(?). The adjustable sighted 1950 became the Model 26 and the heavy barreled 1955 became the Model 25-2. Pictured is a 1950 Army and a Model 25-2.

Kevin

22hipower · #14 01-02-2021, 10:53 PM

Very nice 1917, do the stocks number to it? Looks like you have one of the 990 commercials with the new postwar hammer block designated with the S sn made up after the war in the S209792-S210782 range. Yes, the 1950 Army/Targets are much the same gun but I think of these 990 as the last of the 1917s. Here's one of the last few manufactured; S210775. I've been thinking about having the poor nickel job removed and returning it to its former glory. . . . but so far thinking is all that has been done.

Jeff
SWCA 1457

handejector · #15 01-02-2021, 11:16 PM

There is one feature on these post-war 1917s BESIDES the new hammer block that is not seen on any other variant of the 1917..............

JChandler · #16 01-03-2021, 12:18 AM

Yes the stocks have the same serial number stamped on the inside. After I researched the serial number and as you said it was one of the 990ish made in this configuration in the late 40’s

mh51 · #17 01-03-2021, 12:20 AM

The 1917 Army (post war transitional) was made from 1946-49 using many frames and parts made prior to WWII that S&W purchased back from the govt. As 22hipower said, they fall into a very specific serial number range.
I have S210353, that shipped 11/47. Thanks to SCSW 4th edition for much of this info.

Welcome to the forum....nice entrance!!

JChandler · #18 01-03-2021, 12:53 AM

Thanks for all the info guys!
The serial number on this one is S 210561, luckily the stocks also match. Glad to have bought it

murphydog · #19 01-03-2021, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

There is one feature on these post-war 1917s BESIDES the new hammer block that is not seen on any other variant of the 1917..............

Some came without a butt swivel?

Art Doc · #20 01-03-2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Instead of 70 mph speed limits, let's all drive at 55.

Ooops. Been there, done that.

Frank, the .45 HE Model of 1950, pre-model 22.

Never seen the 1950 called a 1917. Totally different guns as far as I know.

Art Doc · #21 01-03-2021, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JChandler

Thanks for all the info guys!
The serial number on this one is S 210561, luckily the stocks also match. Glad to have bought it

Wouldn't that serial be from around 1960? Doesn't sound right at all on a 1917. What am I not understanding?

Wiregrassguy · #22 01-03-2021, 11:23 AM

Found this info.

Quote:

Believed that fewer than 1000 commercial versions were made in a serial number range of S209792-S210782 with an S serial prefix to indicate the new postwar hammer block, and continued within the 1917 serial number range. One knowledgeable collector reports that these guns are sometimes encountered without the “S” serial number prefix. These commercial versions had the S&W trademark on the sideplate and may or may not have a lanyard ring.

(SCSW, 4th Ed., Page 194).

Memphis · #23 01-03-2021, 12:04 PM

Was the ejector rod knob shape the other difference you were referring to Lee?

Roger

Muley Gil · #24 01-03-2021, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Doc

Wouldn't that serial be from around 1960? Doesn't sound right at all on a 1917. What am I not understanding?

Remember Doc, the 1917s had their own serial number range. The addition of the new safety caused the "S" prefix to be added, just like the M&P revolvers had their own range and the "S" was added towards the end of WW II.

Yes, the civilian N frames with an "S" prefix would have been built in the 1960 time frame.

handejector · #25 01-03-2021, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Was the ejector rod knob shape the other difference you were referring to Lee?

Roger

We have a winner. The post-war S numbered 1917s are the only 1917 variant that have the barrel shaped ejector knob. All others have the mushroom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh51

The 1917 Army (post war transitional) was made from 1946-49 using many frames and parts made prior to WWII that S&W purchased back from the govt.

No, the frames are not WW I buy backs because they are Flat Tops. WW I frames are Round Tops.
No, the barrels are not WW I buy backs because they are not cut for the mushroom ejector rod knob.
I do not think even the cylinders are WW I buy backs. I've handled dozens of these guns and I have never seen an S gun cylinder with a Gov't inspection stamp.
I believe all the WW I parts were used up in the post-war Brazilian guns.
I think these 991 S guns were built from scratch to feed a starving market that had not been fed for nearly 6 years.

JChandler · #26 01-04-2021, 06:22 PM

Thanks for all the great info, I will shoot and enjoy this 1917,

mh51 · #27 01-05-2021, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

We have a winner. The post-war S numbered 1917s are the only 1917 variant that have the barrel shaped ejector knob. All others have the mushroom.

No, the frames are not WW I buy backs because they are Flat Tops. WW I frames are Round Tops.
No, the barrels are not WW I buy backs because they are not cut for the mushroom ejector rod knob.
I do not think even the cylinders are WW I buy backs. I've handled dozens of these guns and I have never seen an S gun cylinder with a Gov't inspection stamp.
I believe all the WW I parts were used up in the post-war Brazilian guns.
I think these 991 S guns were built from scratch to feed a starving market that had not been fed for nearly 6 years.

Lee, I didn't mean that these were built from surplus WWI parts.
From what I've learned, these were built from existing parts purchased under govt. contract just prior to WWII, but had not been assembled when the war ended. S&W bought the parts back to use in immediate commercial production after WWII.

Hondo44 · #28 01-05-2021, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh51

Lee, I didn't mean that these were built from surplus WWI parts.
From what I've learned, these were built from existing parts purchased under govt. contract just prior to WWII, but had not been assembled when the war ended. S&W bought the parts back to use in immediate commercial production after WWII.

Nope, they would have the same problem; cut for the mushroom knob, not for the barrel knob.

The 1917s used the mushroom knob all thru the 1930s, unlike all the other models that switched to the barrel knob after the change order of:

• 1/22/27 change order to replace 'mushroom' extractor knob, with the ‘barrel’ style (with single milling cut under barrel), on all HE non-shrouded barrel models. (Except the 1917s* and all models with an extractor rod shroud which always had the barrel style knob from the shroud introduction in 1908 on the .44 HE 1st model, TL.)

*Probably as you noted, and just speculating, there were so many surplus 45 barrels in inventory already cut for the mushroom knob, and also used on PW Brazilian '46 contract guns.