I need help in identifying my newest S&W

Daugier · #1 01-06-2021, 05:15 PM

It’s a hand ejector
The serial number is 22997 (found on the yoke, not the butt or front strap, which are both engraved)
It is a .38 S&W (not spl)
Barrel length is 5”
Fixed Sights
5 screws
Note: The S&W emblem on the right side is unusual and perhaps modified by the engraver

Also, was the different color bluing in the cylinder ever from the factory?

Thanks for your help!

Truckman · #2 01-06-2021, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daugier

Also, was the different color bluing in the cylinder ever from the factory?

To my untrained eye it looks anodized...

...Ben

Wiregrassguy · #3 01-06-2021, 05:46 PM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! It's a WWII British Service Revolver which apparently was engraved by Kurt Jager in Mainz, Germany. According to Rock Island Auctions:

Quote:

Kurt Jager was born and grew up in Suhl. He was drafted and wounded in WWII and taken prisoner by U.S. forces. After the war, he initially engraved firearms primarily for American servicemen. He worked from the Weisbaden Rod and Gun Club at the American Air Force base. Once German citizens were allowed to own and purchase firearms again, his primary customers came from his homeland, and he moved his shop to the Mainz business district.

The serial number you provide is not valid. It is actually an assembly number used during manufacturing. Take off the grips and see if the real serial number was engraved in the side of the grip frame. If not, the gun is illegal since the serial on the butt has been removed. The finish is probably the way he wanted it to look. Sometimes, bluing takes on a purple tint from poor work, but Jager was an expert. That gun is likely quite valuable if it has a serial number. One of the experts will be along to fix anything I messed up.

Absalom · #4 01-06-2021, 06:05 PM

Read all about him here:

Jaeger, Kurt – German Hunting Guns

I assume you either got it in a private sale or the FFL dealer used the yoke assembly number on the 4473.

It is technically contraband, but I wouldn‘t lose any sleep over it. The butt redecoration is clearly part of the engraving and thus was not done to conceal or deceive, it happened in a foreign country and almost certainly before 1968. At worst, a particularly mean-spirited and well-informed BATFE agent might confiscate it if circumstances conspired to rub his nose in it. So don‘t shoot anyone with this gun

Truckman · #5 01-06-2021, 06:37 PM

Quote:

He worked from the Weisbaden Rod and Gun Club at the American Air Force base.

I was at Wiesbaden a couple of times on TDY in 1966-68, and I frequented the R&G Club (admittedly for the cheap beer)...I wish I had been aware of a lot of things in those days, but I was not aware of a master engraver on the premises...Maybe I'll do better in my next life...

...Ben

.357magger · #6 01-06-2021, 06:41 PM

BSR by Jaeger...nice.

The differential coloring of the cylinder from the rest is a result of them being reblued after engraving. It's called "plum" and in some circumstances it causes devaluation.

Not in this case though.

Jaeger is an internationally known master engraver and gunsmith whose work post war is highly sought. I've seen some of his S&Ws in internet auctions sell well within the city limits of Sillyville.

It's a great piece imo, thanks for sharing it.

Art Doc · #7 01-06-2021, 09:41 PM

I really hate to be the fly in the ointment but it appears the engraver eradicated the serial on the frame. If it hasn't been stamped under the stocks the gun is illegal.

Waveski · #8 01-06-2021, 10:16 PM

- If I zoom in and look real hard I think I can see evidence of how the plugged lanyard ring hole was eliminated and incorporated into the engraving.

***I take back this statement. The later , more detailed image shows no such evidence.

Absalom · #9 01-06-2021, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waveski

...
- If the original serial is intact on the barrel flat would that validate the gun? Or would that not "count" because barrels can be swapped?

Nope. Only the frame serial is considered the legal one. Even though you can likely establish the original with a high degree of certainty if barrel, cylinder, yoke arm, and ejector star serials are present and align, that would not be sufficient if someone were insistent on making a legal issue of it.

Wiregrassguy · #10 01-06-2021, 10:50 PM

Daugier, if there is no valid serial number on the frame, I would contact the seller and get my money back. You are assuming the liability for a felony even though the odds of you being prosecuted are low.

Guy

GerSan69 · #11 01-07-2021, 01:27 AM

Well, hold on. Let me go out on a limb here. If any of you Lawyers want to correct me, please do, but I think you'll find the basics of my little rant here are correct.
This discussion comes up every so often. It always causes confusion, because folks don't ever take the concept of "grandfathering" into account. Put simply, if a firearm is in existence before a law is revised (except in certain circumstances spelled out by Congress in a law) the gun is OK. There are many guns in existence with no serial number!
This is a pre-68 GCA gun. The 68 and/or 86 laws IIRC were the ones with specific rules about serial numbers. On old guns, the rules are (or were) a lot looser. For instance, there are many, many instances out there where the same serial number is on 2 or more firearms.
So IMHO whatever number has been used since the gun was repatriated to the US (which was most likely before all the laws that required that every new gun from that point forward must have a unique serial number to be sold in this country) is the "right" one. Last point, and probably the only one that really, really matters here: Customs didn't have a problem with allowing this gun to be brought into the US in its current condition.... if it's OK with them, then it's OK - Period!

Daugier · #12 01-07-2021, 01:48 PM

Thanks for some real good info! Attached are pictures of the grip frame, the butt, and the number stamped on the flat of the barrel just above the ejector rod. The number is 667352, and also has a V stamped. see picture attached. This number (and the V) are also stamped into the cylinder face.
The closest descriptions I can find in Supica's 4th edition is ".38 Military & Police Model 0f 1905 4th Change", or ".38/200 British Service Revolver". I would still like to know the correct Model name!
Also, the W engraved on the right plate, is where the S&W logo is usually located. (I did read that sometime this logo was omitted on some models) This W and a small circle around it appears to be in silver. I would like to polish it, would this be a mistake?
Thanks again for all your help!

Daugier · #13 01-07-2021, 01:50 PM

Probably just the picture, thanks!

Absalom · #14 01-07-2021, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daugier

.... The number is 667352, and also has a V stamped. see picture attached. This number (and the V) are also stamped into the cylinder face.
The closest descriptions I can find in Supica's 4th edition is ".38 Military & Police Model 0f 1905 4th Change", or ".38/200 British Service Revolver". I would still like to know the correct Model name!

You have found both correct model names yourself

The .38 M&P Model 1905 etc. is the collector description of the model from 1915 until 1942. The Victory series with the V prefix continued unchanged except for externals (grips, finish) in two versions, the US version in .38 Special and the British Service version, which your gun was. The .38/200 was another label for the .38 S&W, called .380 Mk I in Britain; all the same caliber.

V 667352 would make it a British Service Victory from mid-to later 1944 originally, sent to Britain under Lend-Lease.

Daugier · #15 01-07-2021, 02:51 PM

Wow! Thanks Absalom, that exactly what I needed to hear.

Do you have an opinion about the silver W? Should I polish it?

Wiregrassguy · #16 01-07-2021, 02:57 PM

Jager or Jaeger engraved a number of BSR's in the same manner except for the initial on the sideplate. Here is a collection of his engraved guns that sold for a considerable sum at auction. Note the BSRs have an "R" instead of the "W." I suspect it was an initial, probably the last name, of the customer. Also, note the plum color of the cylinder which is identical to your gun. I also note that the BSRs don't have serial numbers on the butt as was clearly stated in the auction description. Perhaps Wordsmith, if he sees this thread, can comment on how that is legal.

Art Doc · #17 01-07-2021, 03:11 PM

Always been illegal to remove a serial.

Serial MUST be on frame. Other parts do not count.

I would make sure the serial was stamped on the frame under the stocks. Harbor Freight sets a stamp set for about $12.

Daugier · #18 01-07-2021, 05:20 PM

Great and helpful information! Thank you.

GerSan69 · #19 01-11-2021, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Doc

Always been illegal to remove a serial.

Serial MUST be on frame. Other parts do not count.

I would make sure the serial was stamped on the frame under the stocks. Harbor Freight sets a stamp set for about $12.

Do you understand, that is not always true?
Many guns have no serial number. What would you say to someone that builds a gun from an 80% receiver?
Here's the thing. Prior to 1968, a serial number was not necessary on any gun that was not covered by the NFA of 1934. And defacing or removing a serial number only applied to NFA weapons prior to 1968! It is more than likely that OP's gun was re-imported in the 1940s or 50s, because US Customs, one of the strictest agencies in the world when it comes to applying the law to every item that enters the USA, allowed this gun into the country. If it were illegal, it would not have been allowed.
Since a serial number was not required, removing it to engrave the gun was perfectly OK back then.
I'm sorry if anyone finds my tone offensive. I'm certainly not trying to. But on the other hand, think of the poor guy who gets rid of a perfectly legal firearm because of completely false information.... I think he'd be feeling a lot more than just "offended!"

BC38 · #20 01-11-2021, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GerSan69

Do you understand, that is not always true?
Many guns have no serial number. What would you say to someone that builds a gun from an 80% receiver?
Here's the thing. Prior to 1968, a serial number was not necessary on any gun that was not covered by the NFA of 1934. And defacing or removing a serial number only applied to NFA weapons prior to 1968! It is more than likely that OP's gun was re-imported in the 1940s or 50s, because US Customs, one of the strictest agencies in the world when it comes to applying the law to every item that enters the USA, allowed this gun into the country. If it were illegal, it would not have been allowed.
Since a serial number was not required, removing it to engrave the gun was perfectly OK back then.
I'm sorry if anyone finds my tone offensive. I'm certainly not trying to. But on the other hand, think of the poor guy who gets rid of a perfectly legal firearm because of completely false information.... I think he'd be feeling a lot more than just "offended!"

I've always thought this argument made logical sense as well. Given the age of the firearm and the provenance of the engraving, the S it N was obviously removed before the GCA68 made it illegal to do so. As I have always understood US law you can't make something illegal retro-actively and then prosecute for it. Seems the absolute worst that could happen is the gun could be confiscated by an extremely over-zealous ATF agent, but they would already have to be looking at the owner really hard and be really determined to find something to nail them for in order for it to become an issue. If they're coming after you that hard chances are 99 out of 100 that they are going to find SOMETHING to nail you for one way or the other any way.

I wouldn't be concerned about it if it were mine.

Now without the engraving that can be positively attributed to being pre-GCA68 it would be a different story all together, because you wouldn't be able to prove that the SN was removed before the GCA68 made it illegal.

On the other hand, given the age of the gun, they would still have to prove that it WASN'T done before it was made illegal, wouldn't they?

Muss Muggins · #21 01-11-2021, 08:36 AM

You are incorrect. If it ever had a serial number, it is illegal to remove it. If it never had a serial number, you're okay . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by GerSan69

Do you understand, that is not always true?
Many guns have no serial number. What would you say to someone that builds a gun from an 80% receiver?
Here's the thing. Prior to 1968, a serial number was not necessary on any gun that was not covered by the NFA of 1934. And defacing or removing a serial number only applied to NFA weapons prior to 1968! It is more than likely that OP's gun was re-imported in the 1940s or 50s, because US Customs, one of the strictest agencies in the world when it comes to applying the law to every item that enters the USA, allowed this gun into the country. If it were illegal, it would not have been allowed.
Since a serial number was not required, removing it to engrave the gun was perfectly OK back then.
I'm sorry if anyone finds my tone offensive. I'm certainly not trying to. But on the other hand, think of the poor guy who gets rid of a perfectly legal firearm because of completely false information.... I think he'd be feeling a lot more than just "offended!"

Inusuit · #22 01-11-2021, 11:45 AM

What Muss Muggins says in post #2 is correct. As it stands, the OP has an illegal gun.

krsmith58 · #23 01-12-2021, 06:26 PM

if the OP stamped the # on the frame would that make it O K ??

Eddie Southgate · #24 01-12-2021, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krsmith58

if the OP stamped the # on the frame would that make it O K ??

Not any more than welding up the giggle pin hole you drilled in your AR lower . As far as the ATF is concerned once it is illegal it is always illegal unless they sign off on the renumbering . I wouldn't worry about it , nobody is gonna come looking for it .

kwill1911 · #25 01-12-2021, 07:42 PM

If it had a SN it is illegal to remove it. The 1968 GCA doesn't matter except that there were (cheap) guns manufactured prior to 1968 without SNs.

Muss Muggins · #26 01-12-2021, 07:47 PM

You must apply for permission to restamp the serial number, and I believe the application must be made by the person who removed it . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by krsmith58

if the OP stamped the # on the frame would that make it O K ??