Early .32 Regulation Police Target LETTER ARRIVED

red9 · #1 01-09-2021, 06:51 PM

I just acquired #259193. It's a 4 1/4" blue target model. Front of grip, barrel and cylinder matching; no visible number on grips w/ rebated backstrap. Patridge front sight and square notch rear. No rework marks or return date. Serial number is at the beginning of the RP range and apparently earliest known target model. Shipped 6/17, letter will be requested.

Bob

delcrossv · #2 01-10-2021, 11:44 PM

Please post the letter when you get it. The front sight is later, it could be a conversion. If it shipped as a target, it's the grandaddy.

Might be a special order too- someone posted a short barrel RP target in nickel that was SO.

Hondo44 · #3 01-11-2021, 05:53 AM

That's a pretty darned nice rare bird. And predates the .22 Kit Gun by 18 years. If Smith would have come up with the Marketing term "Kit Gun" at the same time, they may have sold a ton of them a long time ago.

The 1935 .22 KG was no barn burner in sales until after the war. Part of the reason was no doubt the depression years in which it was introduced. But perhaps some of it may have been the .22 cal. Who knows where a bigger caliber.32 Kit Gun would have gone in the gun-hungry-public times post WWI, and w/o a depression going on?

red9 · #4 05-01-2021, 06:20 PM

Letter arrived (cue happy dance):

Green Frog · #5 05-01-2021, 06:43 PM

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

Sometimes ya just gotta take a chance and believe. Congrats on a super find, not to mention historically significant. We now for for sure that at least one savvy hand gunner in 1917 had the vision to special order a Kit Gun, even before the term was coined.

Regards,
Froggie

Hondo44 · #6 05-02-2021, 11:19 AM

Wow, bravo!

I thought it was righteous! Never say never. What a prize! Congrats!

DGNY · #7 05-02-2021, 01:46 PM

Such a fine configuration! And good caliber also, in this world where many are seeking smaller caliber arms for SD and for fun. Updated to 32 H&R Mag (let alone fire breathing .327), with its modern 4.25” bbl, plus some slightly larger grips, one can already envision a new Classic model on the horizon!

Of course, mayhaps with a photo of this little beauty itself as part of the advertising program.

Thank you for sharing that notable letter.

delcrossv · #8 05-02-2021, 02:50 PM

Very cool! Yours is probably why S&W started making RP targets.
What's really interesting is that your order was with with shorter (less than 6") barrels. My 6 inch target shipped October of '17 (266260).

Congratulations! 😍👍👍

glowe · #9 05-03-2021, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delcrossv

. . . The front sight is later, it could be a conversion. If it shipped as a target, it's the grandaddy . . .

I have never found photos of a Patridge front sight being available in the teens. Had to look up the details for this style sight. It seems that the sight blade was designed by E. E. Patridge in the 1890s. The question now is when was the first one mounted on a S&W? Maybe this one???

I have several pre-1920s M&P Targets and none of them have a Patridge sight. Have not seen any photos of one either. The 1912 catalog showing target sights does not show them available for a S&W.

delcrossv · #10 05-03-2021, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I have never found photos of a Patridge front sight being available in the teens. Had to look up the details for this style sight. It seems that the sight blade was designed by E. E. Patridge in the 1890s. The question now is when was the first one mounted on a S&W? Maybe this one???

I have several pre-1920s M&P Targets and none of them have a Patridge sight. Have not seen any photos of one either. The 1912 catalog showing target sights does not show them available for a S&W.

Correct. Both my early RP Targets (1917 and 1919) have "shark fin" front sights. My RPT from the late 20's has a Patridge. But according to the letter, this was ordered with one. Pretty neat.

I have an 3rd model M&P and 2nd model 44 both with "Western" sights. I don't know if those were cataloged either.

wbraswell · #11 05-03-2021, 11:35 AM

Great thread, super cool RPT!

Hondo44 · #12 05-03-2021, 01:07 PM

In checking my serial # list for RP Target models, either yours or the other # in the shipment is the earliest known/lowest # RP Target model!

Sistema1927 · #13 05-03-2021, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Frog

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

Sometimes ya just gotta take a chance and believe. Congrats on a super find, not to mention historically significant. We now for for sure that at least one savvy hand gunner in 1917 had the vision to special order a Kit Gun, even before the term was coined.

Regards,
Froggie

Now the question is: Did someone order a brace of these through Baker & Hamilton Co., or did they order a pair assuming they would be able to sell them? In either case, where did the twin go?

redwagon32 · #14 05-03-2021, 02:12 PM

Not a RP, but I have a M&P 1905 target 1st change made in 1905-06 with a pinned Patridge front sight-(FWIW it is currently in the For Sale section)

glowe · #15 05-04-2021, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redwagon32

Not a RP, but I have a M&P 1905 target 1st change made in 1905-06 with a pinned Patridge front sight-(FWIW it is currently in the For Sale section)

Could be, but without a detailed image showing the fit and metal, could be a later replacement, just like the OP's . . . . or not???

That M&P has been re-blued, so maybe new front sight and definitely later stocks???

Hondo44 · #16 05-04-2021, 10:41 AM

Front sight blades with a bead are much more common in the 'teens' but original Patridge blades are known. The question on this gun is: does the rear blade have a small U notch or larger square notch to accommodate the wider Patridge front sight?

Also pre war target models all have sight parts stamped with the serial # (or partial #): front blade, rear blade and rear sight tang. All parts must be removed to see the #s however.

Photo by Mike Priwer

red9 · #17 05-04-2021, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The question on this gun is: does the rear blade have a small U notch or larger square notch to accommodate the wider Patridge front sight?

Square notch. As to dating first Patridge, my TL military target has a Patridge which may or may not be original. However, there was at least one other TL military target so equipped. Per comment from Roy, mine is "identical" to one provided to C. S. Axtell for use at Bisley in 1908.

Bob

delcrossv · #18 05-04-2021, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sistema1927

Now the question is: Did someone order a brace of these through Baker & Hamilton Co., or did they order a pair assuming they would be able to sell them? In either case, where did the twin go?

Hey red, IIRC you posted this in the RPT thread on the SWCA side?

Green Frog · #19 05-05-2021, 12:36 PM

Every time I see or hear about this topic, my dream is renewed to have and shoot one of the postWar Transitional RPT Kit Guns. Since there were only less than 200 made, and those almost 65 years ago, the odds are against me. I do have a question for friend Hondo44, however. Did they use the preWar adjustable sights with opposing wind age screws or did they go with the then-current micrometer adjustable rear sights? Old frames, old style sights or leftover frames with newer sights?

Froggie

PS I think you’ve probably revealed this but I can’t find it here on the site nor in my phoggie ‘phibian memory.

Froggie

Wiregrassguy · #20 05-05-2021, 01:49 PM

Quote:

This group includes .38/32 RP Targets and the 196 .32 Reg. Police Target ‘I’ frames, a 1957 release non Model #’d with pre war sights numbered to the gun, small trigger guard and leaf mainspring (pre Improved ‘I’ frame), (Shown 3rd from top on right), made on left over pre war target ‘I’ frames. Th is model still has the smaller pre war cylinder diameter and frame window. Frame serial# stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw matching all other #’d parts inc. stocks and sights, 8 locations in all, (in low #657XXX range). 4” barrel, pre war/early postwar rebated rear grip strap, sq butt stocks, with post war type 16 lpi checkering, round cornered border on round top stocks with curved nickel plated brass medallions. You’ll notice pre war sights supplied w/ special modified pre/post war blue all steel sight adjusting tool (SAT) to fit tiny sight screws, pre war/early post war hammer, post war grooved trigger, and 3rd type post war (and post 1966 aft er becoming J frames) non-sculpted thumbpiece while all other I frames of the period still had the third type flat latch. Most features are inconsistent with non-target pre Model 31 guns of the 1957 period! Including the 3rd post war style straight ejector knob (left hand thread), 4 line address and no patent dates on barrel. A very convoluted transition model for sure. Brief details of these 196 guns are on page 128, 3rd edition, Standard Catalog of S&W, Supica and Nahas, pictured pg 127.

(Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Edition, Page 145-146).

I believe this is what Jim might say.

Hondo44 · #21 05-05-2021, 03:07 PM

Froggie my firend,

Yes, that's what I would say (and wrote).

The Post War Transitional .32 RP "clean up guns" we'll call them, are a true anachronism!

Pre war in most aspects except: with post war sliding bar hammer block safety, straight knob-less extractor rod with left hand thread, 4", not 4 1/4" barrel, and although the rebated sq conversion stocks are pre war style they have the post war features listed above in the quote.

The only correction I can make to Guy's quote is a typo in the book: there are a total of 9 serial # locations, not 8. Therefore 3 on the pre war sights; front blade, rear blade, and rear sight body are all serial numbered, 5 on the gun, and 1 on the right side grip backside for a total of 9.

Note: Rear sight has single elevation screw, no elevation check screw.

Green Frog · #22 05-05-2021, 03:25 PM

Thanks Jim (and Guy). I knew I had seen where you had recorded all of this, but a quick glance @ SCSW 4 wasn’t enough for me to catch it. My old frog eyes aren’t what they used to be!

I’ve now gathered about everything I need to build a recreation, but I’ll have to profile a barrel and add the front locking lug underneath... I’d really prefer to get a real factory profiled barrel, even if I have to line it.

Froggie