Identifying early K-38 *new pictures*

RacingSnake · #1 02-16-2021, 09:29 AM

Hi, I had a look at this K-38 and seems clearly an early model but the serial number is very early, 784*** no prefix. No model number on the yoke or frame so pre-57.

What do you guys think?

CM1.jpg

CM2.jpeg

CM3.jpg

CM4.jpg

glowe · #2 02-16-2021, 09:38 AM

Did you add too many *s? An early serial number is "101" from 1946 with a single line on the frame MADE IN USA and a barrel shaped ejector rod. 700,000 range is well into the model numbered guns. That serial number puts your gun at 1968. Open your cylinder and look at the frame behind the crane for a model number??

murphydog · #3 02-16-2021, 09:38 AM

This .38 Combat Masterpiece has to be from no earlier than about 1957; an earlier one would still have the upper sideplate screw. Is it model stamped in the yoke cutout?

This model always had a K serial number prefix. K 784xxx would be from 1968 so the stocks may or may not be original, or this number is not from the flat bottom of the grip frame.

To IDENTIFY your Gun >

smithra_66 · #4 02-16-2021, 10:13 AM

The hammer shape on that one looks later than the mid-late 50s. It looks like an early 60s gun. Does it have a screw in front of the trigger guard? Is the cylinder serial numbered?

RacingSnake · #5 02-16-2021, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Did you add too many *s? An early serial number is "101" from 1946 with a single line on the frame MADE IN USA and a barrel shaped ejector rod. 700,000 range is well into the model numbered guns. That serial number puts your gun at 1968. Open your cylinder and look at the frame behind the crane for a model number??

Hi Gary, best I go back in the morning and look properly. When I saw the 700,000 serial number and couldn't find a model number I assumed it was very early.

RacingSnake · #6 02-16-2021, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

This .38 Combat Masterpiece has to be from no earlier than about 1957; an earlier one would still have the upper sideplate screw. Is it model stamped in the yoke cutout?

This model always had a K serial number prefix. K 784xxx would be from 1968 so the stocks may or may not be original, or this number is not from the flat bottom of the grip frame.

To IDENTIFY your Gun >

The number was definitely from the bottom of the grip frame. I need to go and get some better pictures tomorrow and check on the model number.

Thanks for the link Alan.

RacingSnake · #7 02-16-2021, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithra_66

Does it have a screw in front of the trigger guard?

As I left the shop I knew someone was going to ask me this. I don't think it did.

So...with 3 screws and assuming the diamond magnas are original and IF it has a model number, we're somewhere between 1961 and 1969?

Will post clearer info tomorrow.

smithra_66 · #8 02-16-2021, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacingSnake

As I left the shop I knew someone was going to ask me this. I don't think it did.

So...with 3 screws and assuming the diamond magnas are original and IF it has a serial number, we're somewhere between 1961 and 1969?

Will post clearer info tomorrow.

Yes I think that's pretty accurate. 3 screws would be around 62, MAYBE late 61 and no earlier. The diamond magnas were phase out I believe around 68 or early 69 so your assumptions seem reasonable to me.

Engine49guy · #9 02-16-2021, 02:48 PM

Are you sure there was no 4th screw in the front of the trigger guard?
Big butt ampersand, integral FS ramp, no upper sideplate screw, without a model marking it's an early 4 screw,
if it is a 3 screw it would be model marked.
Check the heel again, the K will be towards the front tang seperated by an inch or more

RacingSnake · #10 02-16-2021, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine49guy

Are you sure there was no 4th screw in the front of the trigger guard?
Big butt ampersand, integral FS ramp, no upper sideplate screw, without a model marking it's an early 4 screw,
if it is a 3 screw it would be model marked.
Check the heel again, the K will be towards the front tang seperated by an inch or more

Let you know tomorrow what I find.

RacingSnake · #11 02-17-2021, 08:23 AM

Ok, so I got to have a better look at the gun this morning. A few points and then the new pictures.

It's a 4-screw gun
No prefix to the serial number
No model number
No serial number on the cylinder or under the barrel
Has a trigger over-travel stop
10-groove serrated backstrap

Somewhere between 1955 and 1957?

RacingSnake · #12 02-17-2021, 08:26 AM

Additional pictures

murphydog · #13 02-17-2021, 08:57 AM

If you have the gun handy (or the person with the camera does), is there a number stamped on the barrel flat near the extractor rod or on the rear cylinder face?

The number on the bottom of the grip frame is a mystery. It 'appears' to be in the factory font but I think I see signs the area has been refinished. Either way it is not consistent with a .38 Combat Masterpiece, its correct name without a model stamp.

An original .38 CM of this era (late 1957 to early 1958) would have an SN in the high K 200000 to low 300000 range. As this one has an altered serial number that cannot be correct, I would avoid it for legal reasons.

RacingSnake · #14 02-17-2021, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

If you have the gun handy (or the person with the camera does), is there a number stamped on the barrel flat near the extractor rod or on the rear cylinder face?

No. No number on either.

s&wchad · #15 02-17-2021, 10:01 AM

Very strange indeed.

The features say it’s a 4-screw K-38 Combat Masterpiece from the later part of the 50’s. Everything about the gun is typical, until you get to the serial number. The numbers don’t appear to have been altered, but it’s possible they were.

This is pure speculation, but I can only think of 3 possible scenarios.
- The factory totally messed up serializing the gun and shipped it anyway.
- The gun was built by a factory employee for his own use and was issued a random number.
- The butt was scrubbed and a new number added outside of the factory. If that’s the case, they did a superb job.

There should be a serial number on the inside of the extractor. Get a flashlight and see if it matches the number on the butt. It may offer some clues.

glowe · #16 02-17-2021, 12:27 PM

I have not yet seen an original Combat Masterpiece without a K on the butt. To me those numbers look too big and in are in the wrong location on the butt???? Maybe a put together gun with made up serial number.

S&W stopped putting the butt serial number on the rear surface of the cylinder and on the barrel when the Soft Fitting operation was discontinued in May 1957.

Forgot to mention that the inside of the right stock should have a serial number. That process did not end until the 1970s

RacingSnake · #17 02-17-2021, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s&wchad

The numbers don’t appear to have been altered, but it’s possible they were.

Thanks Chad. The serial number was part of the reason I initiated the post. Didn't match what I could find on that era of CMs. The number definitely looks original - type face, depth of numbers etc.

RacingSnake · #18 02-17-2021, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Forgot to mention that the inside of the right stock should have a serial number. That process did not end until the 1970s

Gary, I think this might be the shortest route to some clarity.

series guy · #19 02-17-2021, 02:07 PM

The screw that attaches the rear sight is also wrong so someone has been working on this gun.

s&wchad · #20 02-17-2021, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacingSnake

Thanks Chad. The serial number was part of the reason I initiated the post. Didn't match what I could find on that era of CMs. The number definitely looks original - type face, depth of numbers etc.

Here’s the serial number on a typical 4-screw K-38 Masterpiece for comparison. Yours has a slightly different font (note the "4"), but it's struck very cleanly and doesn't scream alteration. Note that the same number on mine (without the prefix) is stamped on the inside of the extractor star. If the serial number on the butt of your gun was changed, there’s a good chance they missed the extractor number.

Identifying early K-38 *new pictures*-9ad0c934-b657-43af-bb66-dd5634b69ec8-jpg

Identifying early K-38 *new pictures*-9ad0c934-b657-43af-bb66-dd5634b69ec8-jpg

Identifying early K-38 *new pictures*-3206d70b-fb29-4fe0-8b7f-f09697228be0-jpg

RacingSnake · #21 02-17-2021, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s&wchad

Here’s the serial number on a typical 4-screw K-38 Masterpiece for comparison. Yours has a slightly different font (note the "4"), but it's struck very cleanly and doesn't scream alteration. Note that the same number on mine (without the prefix) is stamped on the inside of the extractor star. If the serial number on the butt of your gun was changed, there’s a good chance they missed the extractor number.

Thank you for that information Chad.

handejector · #22 02-17-2021, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s&wchad

- The butt was scrubbed and a new number added outside of the factory. If that’s the case, they did a superb job.

You nailed it here. They are in a fairly straight row, but not as straight as the Factory machine in the late 50s.
The font is wrong on the 4s as you mention, and also on the 7s.

That number is BIG time BOGUS.
It will be interesting to see what the extractor has on it.

handejector · #23 02-17-2021, 04:43 PM

Also-
you can tell even from the pic that the serial number area has been cold blued.

RacingSnake · #24 02-17-2021, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

You nailed it here. They are in a fairly straight row, but not as straight as the Factory machine in the late 50s.
The font is wrong on the 4s as you mention, and also on the 7s.

That number is BIG time BOGUS.
It will be interesting to see what the extractor has on it.

Thanks Lee. I'll let you guys know what I find tomorrow.

RacingSnake · #25 02-18-2021, 07:15 PM

As suspected by Lee and Chad, the numbers under the stocks and ejector match but they're not the same as the serial number on the butt. See pictures below - looks like 321567 and I assume it would have had a K prefix.

The dealer is not trying to pass it off as anything other than what it is and the gun is legitimately registered under the 'new' number. The reason for the change I guess will remain unknown - could have been done many years ago.

Thanks for all the guidance on this one - I've learnt a lot and it was worth the extra time of going back for additional pictures.

AlHunt · #26 02-18-2021, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacingSnake

As suspected by Lee and Chad, the numbers under the stocks and ejector match but they're not the same as the serial number on the butt. See pictures below - looks like 321567 and I assume it would have had a K prefix.

The dealer is not trying to pass it off as anything other than what it is and the gun is legitimately registered under the 'new' number. The reason for the change I guess will remain unknown - could have been done many years ago.

Thanks for all the guidance on this one - I've learnt a lot and it was worth the extra time of going back for additional pictures.

Luckily you didn't buy it. It may be in the dealers book with that as a serial number but it's not legit. The dealer made a mistake in acquiring it.

ETA: Unless there were some documentation and provenance of the serial number change and ideally a letter from BATFE legitimizing it. Apparently, there is not.