For the Victory Model fans among us, another Victory Model that popped up for sale (at a hefty asking price of $1K!) this weekend:

5 inch barrel, blade front, notch rear sight, smooth walnut grip. A grooved trigger, checkered hammer spur and lanyard swivel. S/N V661334.

"Pol.Br.L.u.S." stamped on the left side. See attachment.

MADE IN U.S.A. is stamped on the right side.

edit: The asking price was later adjusted to $700, and I finally bought it for the still somewhat high $650, in part thanks to advice in this thread and comparing to other "British Service Revolver" examples.

Attached Images

	Victory_Model.jpg (166.5 KB, 177 views)
	Victory Stamp.jpg (152.6 KB, 164 views)
	Victory_SN.jpg (67.9 KB, 137 views)

It belonged to the post WW2 German occupation police force in the Bremen Enclave. Pol. Br. = Polizei Bremen and L.u.S. = Land under Stadt (Rural and Municipal/City).

Very cool.

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I continue to be impressed by the amount of knowledge in this forum!

I presume it is not worth a 50% premium just because of that stamp though...

The gun is in unusually good and all-original condition for a German police gun. The apparent absence of other post-war proofs is an additional plus (if there aren’t any hidden on the other side of the barrel).

Still, if I were still adding to my collection, I’d go to no more than maybe $600, or $700 after a few drinks

I can't take credit for the knowledge...Absolom is the man! He shared a great article by Timothy J. Mullin that specifically identified those marks while I was investigating a similar occupation gun just a couple days ago. :-) Gotta give credit where credit is due!

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Postwar German Victorys aren’t uncommon, can’t say that I’ve ever seen a holster or accoutrement for them though.

Both sides look about the same, and I can't remember a US Govmt property mark, or a German proof mark, or a re-import mark. Does not mean something is not there though.

I am not familiar with the stamps at all. I ran the price by someone I know, and he said $650~750, and "look out for rust inside cylinder chambers. My answer was, "$750 in dollars? But it isn't even remotely shiny!"

Edit:

The top strap IS marked, as described in the SCSW 4th ed:
"U.S. Property GHD"
It is very faint, and hard to see without good light.

Here is an Ostereich Polizei (Austrian Police) I was just looking at compared to an Australian lend-lease I just bought. They want $600 for the Austrian but I got the Australian for $300 at a different shop.

Yours is interesting but I can't see spending that kind of money on it.

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I suppose IF the gun was rare AND important, and had historical value beyond being one of many M&P-style revolvers used post WWII, THEN a high price would be justified. Otherwise it is only as interesting as another Victory in comparable condition.

The Ö in Österreich can also be spelled "Oe" if your keyboard is umlaut deprived like mine. (A bit off topic, but stay with me, )

The name of the country, Austria or Oesterreich, means "Empire of the East", and before that "Eastern March" or "Eastern Borderland". Austria is a small remnant of the Austrian Empire from before WWI. The capital Vienna was once an outpost of the far reaches of the Roman Empire on the Danube. The name of the country goes back to historical events during the Roman Empire, some of which Absalom referred to in another thread about Roman history, and the partition of Europe into Eastern and Western regions.

Still off topic but I am getting there...

Your other Victory model ended up in Australia, which is derived from the Latin "Terra Australis", or "Southern Land".

So - you now have East and South. Now you need to buy just TWO MORE Victory models, and you have the four corners of the world covered. Then you can just work your way toward the center.

All roads lead to Rome... or to Arminius as Absalom pointed out in a different thread...

I love this forum! Great information! Sadly I'm passing on the Austrian one though, just a bit too high in my estimation...but after what you taught me it is tempting!

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And yes, forum members whose user names are mercifully lost to time have in the past managed to get Austria and Australia mixed up when discussing these ...

And one more minor nerdy tidbit. The mark as applied says “Austria (eagle) Police”, not “Austrian Police”. The proper adjective form, “Österreichische Polizei“, may have been a few letters too long for that size of circular stamp.

Corrections:

The top strap of the gun is marked "U.S. Property GHD". It is just very faint, and not visible unless you have good light. I will post a pic later.

The price I posted was sort-of a place holder. The actual price is likely to be in line with current values.

The barrel is 5", and the s/n on the barrel flat, the cylinder, and the butt of the frame all match. The gun is chambered in .38 S&W (checked twice) and it really is a plain Victory model.

Thanks everyone for helping!

It is a nice example of a Victory ; the post war German designation would be a plus for me.
It looks like it has been disassembled , judging by the screws. I think that would knock the edge off of a high asking price. Marred screws make it a very nice shooter , rather than a high condition collectable.

In my book anyway.

Thanks for the comment! To me only the yoke screw looked like it had screwdriver marks but I could be wrong... It is not in collector condition. The finish is worn off in a couple spots. Sorry for any misinformation above, I am not a collector, but I will try to edit and fix any omissions.

I have more detailed pics, and will try to post them later today, and for reference correct anything else I may have posted in error from before I looked at it in good light.

If by yoke screw you mean the forward-most side plate screw , yes , but the cylinder release thumb latch screw is the worst of the bunch.

That may seem nit-picky , but if a seller is asking high stakes you get to be nit picky.

By contrast my DSC , which has perfect screws and very good overall finish , cost me a bit less than 40% of that asking price a few years back. I think it is a safe generality that either DSC or a 5" .38 S&W Victory bring a bit less than a 4" Victory in .38 special.


Is that general statement valid?

You’ll get different opinions on this.

I’d say it’s likely valid for the general buying public who see the .38Spl. US PROPERTY Victory as the archtypical form of the model.

Not so much for actual collectors. Military-shipped US Victorys are the most common type, easily found at all condition levels, but with almost no chance to find out where the gun ended up. DSC guns have much better odds at provenance since they usually letter to a specific end user. And good-condition BSRs (all original and unconverted) are harder to find that either of the US versions.

Here is a new description, including what I previously missed:

Victory S/N V661334

• Matching s/n on Frame, Cylinder, Barrel and Grip
• 5 inch barrel
• "SMITH & WESSON" on left side of barrel
• "38 S&W CTG" on right side of barrel
• "Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA..." on top of barrel
• Smooth walnut grip
• Grooved trigger
• Checkered hammer
• Original Lanyard swivel
• "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D." on top strap (very light)
• "P" stamped on left side next to hammer, after the serial number on the barrel flat, and inside the yoke on the frame
• "Pol.Br.L.u.S." stamped on the left side (I now know this means "Polizei Bremen Land und Stadt, as posted by another member above)
• Large S&W trademark stamped on the side plate
• "MADE IN U.S.A." stamped on the right side

Attached Images

	Vic_SN2.jpg (64.5 KB, 12 views)
	Vic_Grips1.jpg (88.5 KB, 7 views)
	Vic_SN3.jpg (31.1 KB, 9 views)
	Vic_SN4.jpg (40.4 KB, 7 views)
	Vic_US_Prop_GHD.jpg (47.5 KB, 5 views)

I have edited some of my other posts in this thread to avoid leaving any misleading information for anyone else, and added some pics above.

The asking price was adjusted after identifying it properly as a British Service Revolver, and I finally bought the gun for the still somewhat high price of $650. That may or may not be justified because there is no sign of rust or evidence of rework of any kind, no import marks, and the grips are in good shape and numbered to the gun.

I don't think anyone besides me was seriously interested in the gun at that price, and my attempts at persuading one of my friends who is more familiar with WWII firearms to spend $600~700 on it were in vain. As Absalom wrote above, $700 would require a few drinks first,

I have fired about 40 rounds through it, and only negative thing I have noticed is that some cartridges do not seem to seat perfectly in the cylinder and on the extractor without some help.

The grips are a little harder on the hand than modern grips, and I noticed some evidence of tumbling/keyholing past 10 meters (30 feet).

Apparenty the City of Bremen was in the British occupied zone, but not officially part of the area administered by Britain after WWII.

Bremen had traditionally been a city-state, and resisted being included into the German state of Lower Saxony by the British. It became an "exclave" of the American occupation zone surrounded by the British zone.

The mayor after 1945 was a German politician from before WWII who had suddenly developed a passion for farming instead of politics when the Nazis had taken over. He was appointed by the US Military Government in August 1945 as part of the de-Nazification program. He visited the US in 1946, was an early proponent of NATO in Germany, and served until 1965.

Bremen was known as the "Free Hanseatic City of Bremen" after WWII, and included Bremen and Bremerhaven. It had its own senate, civil administration, and also its own police force.

So, this Victory model was most likely issued to the police after August 1945, and before 1951, and retired sometime after. The somewhat odd stamp "Pol. Br. L. u. S." (Polizei Bremen Land und Stadt), was meant to tell people that the police force was independent and not part of Lower Saxony.

Having said all that...

If it was issued by the US Military in Germany, and not the British, why issue a .38 S&W and not a .38 spl?

Germany apparently re-established proof marks in 1951. If this gun was re-sold through official channels after 1951, should have had German proof marks?

Attached Images

Vic_Pol_Br.jpg (96.6 KB, 6 views)

Bremen with Bremerhaven became an American enclave for one specific reason:

Since the US ocupation zone in the South of Germany was landlocked, the US wanted to guarantee itself access to and control of a major port for resupply.

As for issuance, while the British (obviously) issued only BSRs, plus Enfields and Webleys, the US authorities issued both Victory versions. In Bavaria and Württemberg-Baden, we also have a mix of BSRs and US variants in both calibers.

The easiest explanation is usual the right one: Simple availability. Supernumerary Lend-Lease stocks in Britain (still US property) and whatever they could gather from Navy and OSS stores no longer needed.

The proofing was only required if they wanted to sell it on the German civilian market. Bremen may have dumped these on some international surplus dealer like Sam Cummings.

That makes sense, thanks! So most likely it was sold to a dealer outside Germany, and imported to the US before the 1968 requirement for import marking took effect, so there are no German proofs or import marks.