Requesting help dating my "new to me" purchase. I'm afraid that all I know is, I want home protection and I love pretty vintage items.
The guide to identify what I have in the Forum is excellent. I already know much more about it... it lead me here.

The serial number is 480770 (stamped on the butt, bottom of barrel and cylinder) and it's a 38 special CTG. There is no model number stamped on the yoke, only the small factory assembly numbers. I believe it is a 5 screw.

I'd just love to know what I have, age-wise... and maybe a value (I cringe as I may discover I paid too much... but I love it). Thank you in advance!

Link is for pics. I'm new here and already love this site!

Microsoft OneDrive - Access files anywhere. Create docs with free Office Online.

I'm not going to get close enough for any precision in the goofy little game we play, but some others might. (Absolute, no questions asked facts come with a letter from the historical foundation---$100.)

#404219 shipped September 9, 1922
#594161 shipped August 23, 1928

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, you have an M&P (Military & Police) revolver. It is S&W's most popular item, with something on the order of three quarters of a million pieces produced starting more or less at the beginning of the 20th century up to WWII----a bunch more during the war, and maybe another million thereabouts since then. All of which is to say spare parts are plentiful.

As to value, not much. It's been refinished at least once, so value drops by about half. At least one of the refinishings has been of very poor quality, so maybe half again---and we best quit here before we run out of halves.

A couple things to look for to narrow down the date. First, if it has a MADE IN USA stamp on the frame, it was made in 1922 or later. If it has a large mushroom shaped ejector rod, it was made before 1927. My guess is that it shipped right in the middle of those two numbers, 1925.

Also, the revolver model is 38 HE, Military & Police, 4th Change. As Ralph stated, the revolver has been refinished, plus it does not have original stocks. They made millions of K frame revolvers from 1899 up to the Model 10 in the 1950s, so value will be low, maybe somewhere under $250.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

To be more specific, they hit the 1 million mark in April, 1942.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Welcome to the Forum.

That's a decent looking old Smith. I recommend using wadcutter ammunition, if you can find any, or a semi-wadcutter profile loading.

Hang about this forum. If you enjoy S&Ws, this is the best place to be. Many of us have other brands as well, plus rifle and shotgun interests. It is family friendly too, which is a big plus.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thank you for the input. It's good to know a little history about it (refinishing and later grips). I thought this might be an N frame as it has a 4" barrel length. No?

Ralph

Probably closer to 7-10 million made post-WW2. Consider that targets are now separated into a separate serial number series from fixed-sighted guns. Post-WW2, the firsts round of targets are serial-numbered as K101 to K999999, and the first round of fixed-sighted are C1 to C999999. That's two million right there. Then comes 1K1 to 1K99999, then 2K1 to 2K99999, etc. At 9K99999, thats another million. In fixed sighted guns, the next million are D1 to D999999. I think all this happens before 1970.

Then there is another 50 years of production since then. Its staggering to think about how many have been made.

Regards, Mike Priwer

No, this is a K frame. Barrel length doesn't determine frame size.

Pre WW II hand ejectors (swing-out cylinder revolvers) were built on four frame sizes: the tiny M frame in .22, the I frame in .22, .32 and .38 S&W, the K frame in .22, .32 and .38 and the N frame in .38, .357, .44 and .45.

Frame sizes increase from M to I to K to N. Post WW II the I frame was slightly enlarged to the J frame, the L frame was introduced and is between the K and the N, and lastly the largest frame is the X frame.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Still learning. Thank you!

Welcome to the forum!

I think you made a good purchase. Yes it's been refinished. The trigger and hammer are nickeled, but the factory didn't do that, so some third party did it. Looks good and clean to me.

A 4 inch barrel 5 screw for sure. The stocks (grips) look really nice even if they are not original. They are probably worth a lot just by themselves.

Since you want it for home protection, it should be just the ticket. A .38 Special is an excellent choice especially as a first gun.

I would be happy to have it. In the current market, it's hard to say what it should sell for, but I think the $250 estimate is low, given current conditions. Under normal circumstances, I think it is still low.

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You're shy a few manners.

I know as much about ammunition as I do guns (sadly). Is the wadcutter you mentioned special? I was contemplating trying to get over-the-counter for a 38 today if possible (Walmart maybe).

I forgot to mention that you have to get used to people here who think that a refinish is the kiss of death to a gun.

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You're shy a few manners.

Wal-Mart stopped selling handgun ammo last year. Hopefully, you have a local gun shop (LGS) nearby that has some .38 special ammo. .38 special wadcutter ammo shouldn't be hard to find.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks for saving me that trip! I have a buddy who has some ammo so I think I'm set.
For grins, I called S&W customer support when I saw in another place, they could date the gun. I called and gave the lady the serial number and she said 1964. I'd rather think she was wrong about that. She did however point me to the historical site where I could do the $100 letter route. I don't think I want to know that bad.

Yes, she has her numbers mixed up. By '64 it was all 3-screws.

You never know what a letter might tell you, but for a fairly common non-original condition gun like yours it almost certainly would not add to the gun's value.

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You're shy a few manners.

I stand corrected---to one degree or another. I was referring to M&P's. You seem to be referring to what-----M&P's and then another bunch of K frames? More by way of explanation than excuse, my interest (and therefore my knowledge) is (and always has been/will be) target guns. I profess to not even understand why fixed sight guns are even made. I know better of course, but such helps at least some folks to understand when and why I shut down.

Ralph Tremaine

I don't know how much you paid, but it looks like you got a functional shooter. I've had old guns refinished and will continue to do so because I like good looking firearms. The only cardinal sin is attempting to sell a refinished/restored gun as new to the unsuspecting. Many of us could waste all of our free time on Gunbroker messaging sellers with clearly refinished guns that they are selling as original. Those sellers that are brazen --- or ignorant --- enough to do so almost never change their description, so again it's a waste of time.

Actual 148gr wadcutters are not easy to find on store shelves. I like the ones I have purchased from Georgia Arms, but these days I load my own. Either these or 158gr semi-wadcutters will probably be your best bet for home defense. Develop a strategy to reload your firearm under stress (speedloaders, speedstrip, etc) and PRACTICE.

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Psalm 27:2

Ralph

I didn't realize you were talking about M&P's only. Prior to the redesign following WW2, the .38 K-frames (and K-22's and K-32) were all combined in the first serial number series of 1 to 999999. That's a mix of adjustable and fixed-sighted guns. I suppose we should add to that the 32-20's, which were in their own serial number series, includes both adjustable and fixed-sighted guns. So, pre-WW2-Victory serial numbered K-frames total 1,140,000 guns, or so. As far as I know, there is no known split between adjustable and fixed sights.

The .38 series hit 999999 on April 24 1942, at which point they had to start another serial number series. They could not go back and start at 1 again, because of the confusion it would cause with the pre-war guns. So, they added the V as a prefix, but part of, the serial number. The last Victory model serial number is VS811,119 ( the S having been added to signify the new hammer safety) on Aug 27 1945.

As the war was over, and Victory had been achieved, the V was dropped, and the serial number series was run out to S999999. That completed the second million K-frames. Of course, nearly all of that second serial number series are fixed-sighted guns; the Mexican Model targets, and a few others, are the exception.

At this point, the redesign is completed, and two new series are started: the K-prefix series for adjustable sighted guns, and the C-prefix series for fixed-sighted guns.

And that is all I have to say about that!

Regards, Mike

I wonder how many people reading this thread know the origin of Clem Kadiddlehopper?

No fair searching!

Red Skelton!

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Mike H

The ones that cracked me up were with the two seagulls, Gertrude and Heathcliffe...I still listen to his radio skits on XM channel 148...I believe that's where the "mean widdle kid" originated......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Great post, Mike.

Yes. The records show it was assembled on that date. However, it did not ship from the factory until March 1, 1946, in one of the earliest postwar shipments to a distributor. The only earlier civilian shipment I've identified was a batch sent to the Cleveland PD in February, 1946.

Also, the number on the gun you mentioned is SV811119, not VS811119. VS just wasn't used so far as I can determine. There is one in existence that we know of (owned by an SWCA member), but I'm convinced it was simply a mistake. I have looked at thousands of SV M&Ps over the past decade and another VS has never showed up.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Jack

Check out "History of Smith & Wesson" by Roy jinks, pages 164 & 165. At the time of the new hammer safety, partially-completed frames (already having a V-prefix serial number) were additionally given a "S" preceding the 'V' when they were modified, thus making their serial number prefixed by "SV". Additional war-time frames (new) were given the prefix "VS", and the last one of those was VS811119. The "V" prefix was then dropped, and the series was run out with just a "S" prefix.

All this according to Roy!

Regards, Mike

Hi Mike

I know what the book says. But where are all of them? I have just over 2500 SVs in my database and not a single one of them has a VS prefix. The one that is known has a ridiculously high number - VS813414, the V is odd and out of line with the rest of the serial number, while the S is normal and perfectly lined up with the digits.

Something just doesn't add up. It would be great if we could solve this mystery, but for now I just don't believe they exist.

Incidentally, I have actually seen SV811119 and it is SV, not VS.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Around here ( aka Collector Circles) there is heavy emphasis on Original Condition . Back in the Revolver Era when these were everyday Using Guns , they would get refinished if sufficiently holster worn , or if the owner just wanted a different look. Same thing if the owner wanted different grips , either to fit their hand better , or for esthetics . But what disappoints a Purist Collector can make for an affordable shooter .

*******************

Actually for at least a decade now b Wadcutters are rare on LGS ( Local Gun Store in gun lingo) shelves . The default generic " practice ammo " is 130gr FMJ . Yeah , I miss walking into a store and seeing 158gr SWC , but it is what it is .

******************

For the OP , the simple version is that you want Standard Pressure .38 Special Ammunition . This means the Box and/ or the cartridge says , .38 Special " and does NOT also include a " +P " or " Plus P " .

In the midst of the current Ammunition Panic , buy whatever you find at a price point that doesn't make you gag . If you actually have choices , ine with 158 grain Bullets will * probably * shoot closest to point of aim for your fixed sight revolver . ( Shooting close to point of aim is a good and desireable thing , that makes hitting that at which you are shooting easier .

Jack

For 2500, I can imagine that all of those were partially-completed frames that were modified to the new hammer safety, and the S added to the serial number to create a SV prefix. The factory was 100% committed to Victory models, so there well could have been a very large number of partially completed frames.

Because the guns were not made in serial number order, its possible that partially completed V811119 was in the last batch of frames to be modified, and prefix-stamped with an S. I suppose you'd have to ask Roy about this point, since you have personally examined the gun.

As to where the rest of the VS guns are, maybe there were relatively few new frames made after finishing up that last batch of SV guns. The War was winding down, and maybe there was not a need for many more .38's.

In this context, how many Norwegian Air Force in Canada contract guns do you have in your database, or have seen, or know anything about? Just asking!

Regards, Mike

Hi Mike!

Clearly not. And, of course, not shipped that way either. Here is an interesting partial list of the late war SV guns in my database, with ship month and location, if I have it:

SV732261 - Jun '45 Navy
SV764366 - Jun '45 Navy
SV770761 - Jan '45 Navy
SV774890 - Jan '45 Navy - Springfield
SV775333 - Jan '45 Navy - Springfield
SV775869 - Jan '45 Navy
SV779251 - Feb '45 Navy - Oakland (1200 units)
SV782308 - Mar '45 Navy - Oakland
SV785627 - Mar '45 Navy - Oakland
SV788548 - Apr '45 Navy - Oakland
SV790283 - May '45 Navy - Oakland
SV790900 - May '45 Navy - Oakland
SV793339 - May '45 Navy - Oakland
SV799530 - Jul '45 Navy - Oakland
SV800608 - Jul '45 Navy - Oakland
SV802722 - Aug '45 Navy - Norfolk (highest # to Navy per Roy)

Sandwiched in between those numbers are several thousand that didn't ship until March '46 or later and went to civilian locations (PDs, Distributors & what have you).

Rings a bell, but I'd have to search my database to see if any of them are included. If so, I believe I would have noted it in the misc column. I'll see what I can find.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Mike
Yes, I do have info about that contract. However, the Master supplied it and I was asked not to share without permission. I suggest you take the matter up with him. Sorry.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Thanks for the tip! I have a speed loaded on the way already. I don't want shells in the gun due to curiosity of a grand child being where they aren't supposed to be. I do want to be able to quickly load even if in the dark. I thought the speed loader would be best. I also have a nice leather holster for it and a plastic pistol case is also in the mail.

As kids in school, we would stand to his pledge of allegiance and recite it with him... so in essence, he taught us. He also said a prayer that they played over the classroom speaker. Those were the days!

By all accounts he was a genuinely nice man who always gave credit to others where it was due...He was also an accomplished painter......Ben

__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

[QUOTE=KlemKadiddlehopper;141081197]Requesting help dating my "new to me" purchase. I'm afraid that all I know is, I want home protection and I love pretty vintage items.
The guide to identify what I have in the Forum is excellent. I already know much more about it... it lead me here.

The serial number is 480770 (stamped on the butt, bottom of barrel and cylinder) and it's a 38 special CTG. There is no model number stamped on the yoke, only the small factory assembly numbers. I believe it is a 5 screw.

I'd just love to know what I have, age-wise... and maybe a value (I cringe as I may discover I paid too much... but I love it). Thank you in advance!

Link is for pics. I'm new here and already love this site!

Microsoft OneDrive - Access files anywhere. Create docs with free Office Online.[/QUO


Mr. Klemkadiddlehopper , did you expect this response when you posted ? Man these guys know guns!!

Jack

That list is a whole other subject, which I know a lot about, as I was a member of the group of three in getting the list into shape.

My question was not about the list, but about your personal knowledge of the guns in that contract; ie, personally knowing anything about the existence /whereabouts of any of the guns.

The question is my answer to your comment about VS guns "Where are they?" . Perhaps you are not aware of any specific NAF in Canada guns, but like VS guns, they are around. Check out S&WCA Journal Vol 53 No 2 Summer 2019 pages 15-24, specifically page 17.

I have to believe that there are VS guns, and that I've seen some being sold in auctions, but I can't prove that!

Regards, Mike

Jack

Regarding the SV and VS issue, I communicated with the fellow who owns and maintains the list of Victory models. He says that his database, which is very extensive, contains only one VS gun, which is the one you referenced. He also believes that the book is in error about this issue: all the post-safety Victory models are SV guns.

He is also the new president of the S&WCA. Sure you know who I'm speaking of.

So - I'll take his word for this, and acknowledge that my position was wrong.

Regards, Mike

Thanks for the new info, Mike. And yes, I know who you mean; a very reliable source.

I'll send you a PM on the other matter.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318