OK Guys, I really need your help here. I just picked up this revolver with a 6.5" barrel, target grips and target sights. It is pristine with 98-100% bluing and appears unfired or maybe a few shots through it. The weird thing is that it has two serial numbers. Under the grips and inside the lug it has 57XXX but behind the cylinder carriage it has 42XXX. Does anyone know what the age is of this gun? It looks to be a pretty rare variant of the .38/44.

The only number that matters is the number on the bottom of the butt. All the rest are either assembly numbers or possibly the same number on the butt.

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Don Mundell

Thanks! That's what I have always heard. Any idea on age?

Which is the number on the butt? The number on the butt of frame is the serial. We need this number or first 3 digits to help on age.

And photos never hurt. Especially if you think you have something out of the ordinary.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

It is a variant of the 38-44. It isn't rare. I dare say it isn't even scarce----but it's a first class example of the gun maker's art---and one of my favorites. It started off in the early 1930's, and continued on until the mid 1960's.

As to it's age, you'll need to get a letter---if you're a stickler for accuracy. If a somewhat unscientific wild guess will suffice, #59378 was shipped on June 7, 1940-------------and another of our colleagues (one or more) will be along with some earlier shipping dates for your viewing pleasure and extrapolation.

Ralph Tremaine

Well, as I said the butt number is 57XXX, so sometime prior to 1940. Here are some pics for your viewing pleasure

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That's a really nice Outdoorsman. The stocks are not original but are Cokes, a fantastic substitute. Cheers!

SVT28

Sent from my LM-V450 using Tapatalk

Some people might buy the gun just for the grips!
(calling fleabus101, )

It at least appears you have the "two screw) rear sight, so that puts it after 1932----and the serial number is fairly close; so I'll guess yours left in the late '30's. (Now just to illustrate the unscientific part of all this, I have another/different model in the same serial number series. It's number is , 54911, so you'd figure it shipped way before my Outdoorsman----and a good bit before yours too. It didn't. It shipped January 28, 1941.)

The bottom line of this guessing game is it's a guessing game. If you want facts, you want a letter from the historical foundation. You find their part of this forum down below.

Ralph Tremaine

For reference, this one is SN 57709 and it shipped in May 1939. I would expect that yours shipped sometime near that, but only an historical letter will tell you for sure.





Thanks for sharing your beautiful O/D - which in my opinion was one of the finest revolvers to ever flow off the factory floor.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Thanks guys! I was not aware of "coke" grips but they sure do feel good in the hand! That nickel example is sweet. I don't really care about the exact date, just wanted to get a ball park number.

Yes, those "Coke Bottle" stocks are somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years newer than the gun. But they are extremely nice and not a bad thing to have on a prewar .38/44 Outdoorsman's revolver.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

That nickel example isn't----it's just squeaky clean.

If you'd like to have a rare Outdoorsman, just keep looking until you find a real nickel one.

Ralph Tremaine

All I can say is "WOW" to that finish!

Well he has some that are all scratched up, so we figure he's entitled to a really nice one like that every now and then----even if it does have the wrong hammer on it.

Ralph Tremaine

You have one of the nicest S&W revolvers
that were ever produced. While the 50s target grips aren't period correct..they are one of the best feeling factory grips you can use on it.
Congrats on your terrific aquisition.
Randy..

Sorry for the confusion it just threw me off when you said under the grips. Now seeing it has a beautiful set of post war Cokes it all makes sense now. That is a real beauty of gun and I just love mine, so I know you will love and enjoy yours!

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Beautiful find to say the least....

Don't know what you paid, but the Cokes alone go for $6-800....

Enjoy that one...

Bob

Thanks Fleabus, the fit and finish on it is really very nice even though my pics aren't very good. I can't wait to get it to the range and see how it shoots. I have never owned an N frame S&W. The seller had quite a collection of older revolvers including two pristine Model 29s, a 29-2 and 29-3.

I think I'm suffering from O/D envy here.

Pete, in case Ralph's "humor" has gone over your head, the "scratched up" guns that Richard has are ones that have been engraved - sometimes extravagantly but always tastefully and masterfully. And as for the Outdoorsman shown having the wrong hammer, it simply has what is known as a "humpback" hammer that the factory offered as an option to the standard hammer. As to whether it came from the factory that way or not (sometimes they were fitted after the fact), only a letter will tell and I'm sure Richard has one.

Ralph wasn't kidding when he said that your gun is not necessarily rare or even scarce as they made thousands. One in the same condition as yours is awfully hard to come by these days though.

Well Tom, the truth is that I went to see this fellow because he sent me a list of his guns that included two Model 19s which is what I was looking for. Turns out he sold the Model 19s but told me to look at his other revolvers. I had no idea what this model was but the condition and bluing looked so good and the price so low I just went for it! Glad I did. I like Ralph's humor!

Yeah. He should publish a book titled "Apothegms of Ralph the Raconteur."

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

An Outdoorsman is among the very best of cast bullet revolvers and they're heavy enough that even an inexperienced shooter can do pretty well with one.

Don't know if it helps, but mine, with serial number, 41843 was shipped in October 1932.

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Bill

Interesting remark! Why cast bullets in particular?

Thanks! That would seem to confirm mine is made sometime in the late 30s

I guess an Outdoorsman might shoot jacketed just as well, but I don't know as I have little experience with jacketed bullets in handgun chamberings. However, I doubt a jacketed bullet would shoot more accurately than a well-fitted cast bullet of the proper alloy for the load.

I forgot I have another question for the experts here: Aside from the two top screws to adjust the rear sight, there is a third screw further up the top strap. What was the purpose of that third screw? Also how should the rear sight screws be adjusted properly?

Thank you! I have plenty of both 158 grain SWC and 125 grain semi jacketed hollow point bullets soI guess I will check to see which shoot better.

The top screw holds the sight on. One adjusts the elevation and windage by screwing in the direction you want the bullet to go. In other words, if the gun shoots to the right of where you aim, adjust the windage screw in, moving the impact of the bullet to the left. If it shoots low, screw the elevation screw out, just like pulling the bullet impact up.

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Peter #2091

------------or not.

The screw closest to the muzzle holds the sight assembly on the gun. They are routinely frozen solid. If/when you wish to remove the sight assembly, you'll need a screwdriver that fits the screw---AND has a handle big enough to hold onto. That screwdriver is to be found at Lowes (Kobalt #0525844) in the "Precision Screwdriver Set". There are ten screwdrivers---1/16", 3/32", 5/64", and 1/8" slotted. One of those fits the far front screw. Give it a try----CAREFULLY. When it shows no sign of moving, raise the sight by turning the aft screw CLOCKWISE, so as to expose the channel in the top strap as much as possible. You now have a clear shot to the screw's threads for your favorite magic unsticking stuff--------which may or may not work before you run out of patience. Given the expiration of your patience, head for your gunsmith------GUNSMITH, not a parts changer. (I ended up at my GUNSMITH'S for about one out of three------never buggered a screw or a gun-----$20 a pop, and worth every penny of it.) (The remaining screwdrivers in the set are Phillips and Star------10 in all. If you equate quality to cost as I normally do, the $10-12 you spend for these screwdrivers will convince you they're garbage. Not so---at least in my case----going on 5 years. My other set of precision screwdrivers came from Brownells---6 of 'em---for slotted screws (that aren't stuck, because these handles are teeny-tiny). They're made in Germany, come in a fitted, hardwood case, and cost about $75. This is the good stuff. The Chinese garbage from Lowes is what works.

Now, here's how to adjust/lock your sight (arguably the very best S&W ever made (simply because it's INFINITELY adjustable, and WILL NOT "shoot loose")----if/when properly adjusted/locked. INFINITELY adjustable means this is the gun you use for lighting matches, driving nails, and murdering bumblebees. (The later Micrometer Adjustable sight (still in use today) is fine for shooting at paper targets, but not for close work.)

Okay, the aft screw is for elevation (and locking). The screw directly in front of the aft screw is ALSO for elevation (and locking). Here's how: Make the initial elevation adjustment by turning the aft screw clockwise (raises the sight)----get close. Make the final elevation adjustment with the screw immediately in front of the aft screw. Now turn the aft screw counterclockwise as far as it will go. You're done. If you'll sit and stare at what you've done, you'll come to realize you've jammed the sight into position with a push-pull arrangement of these two screws---the aft screw is pulling the sight down (via a flange nut in a slot in the top strap) against the neighboring screw (which is against the top strap)-------and the sight will move if and when the top strap does----usually after a really big KABOOM!!!!! Windage is adjusted by loosening one screw and jamming the other against the blade-------and the windage adjustment shooting loose has never been a problem. The elevation adjustment shooting loose was a problem for a mere 50 years!! (Oh the shame of it all!!!)

Okay----how far to move the screws goes like this: One full turn of an adjusting screw moves the point of impact 1" for each 10 yards of range.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, I was looking in my Brownells book to see about how much my really good screwdrivers that don't work were, and spotted something new----new to me-----Grace Micro Screwdriver Set----3 slotted, 3 Phillips, BIG HANDLES, $30 (in my book which is older than dirt). The handles at least appear to be larger than those from Lowes.

Fantastic instructions Ralph! I am sure to be back for more info..

Well, if you're sure to be back for more, here's some technical tid-bits you may very well not have known to ask for----at least not right now. Some come from a S&W catalog (circa 1936-37), some from a March 1, 1934 letter from D. B. Wesson to an inquisitive customer who had ordered "a pair" of Outdoorsman (One .22, one .38/44) The customer had asked about the heat treating (if any) of the .22 cylinder.

While your barrel may be marked .38 S&W Special, your revolver was designed for the .38/44 S&W Special. Here, from the catalog, are some comparative performance figures (from an 8 3/4" barrel):

.38 S&W Special Mid Range at-----825 f.s.
.38 S&W Special at---------------- 950 f.s.
.38 S&W Special Super Speed at 1100 f.s.
.38/44 S&W Special at------------1226 f.s.
S&W .357 Magnum at-------------1512 f.s.

From the letter:

"The steel that is used in the cylinder of the K-22 is identical in formula with that used in the larger calibers, but it is not heat-treated after machining as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening. As a matter of fact, even in out larger calibers the steel as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength in the neighborhood of 80,000 lbs. which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity, but we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety that is obtained with the 150,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives."

Your cylinder is one of those in the "larger calibers". Your cylinder (unless modified) will not accommodate .357 Magnum cartridges because the chambers are too short (by .10"). It was apparently commonplace for owners of the Heavy Duty models (and seemingly less so for Outdoorsman owners) to ream their chambers to accommodate the .Magnum, and to use the cartridge with no ill effects.

Ralph Tremaine

Some of what people were using in the late 30s. Not a hundred percent sure of the red/green box but I think it's just before WWII

Well I guess I will now have to start reloading .38 special loads for this old gal! So far, I have only reloaded rifle calibers but it might be fun to work up some specific .38/44 loads. Nothing super hot, but just a notch above the usual +P loads.

Ralph, I looked for those Kobalt screwdrivers on the Lowe's site. Are these the ones you recommend? https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-Prec...r-Set/50135070

Yes--------

RT

And back to the best bullets to use----hard cast/softer cast/jacketed (about which I know next to nothing), I note the cartridge boxes shown in Post # 36 (above) all refer to "Metal Point" bullets. I suppose the best bullets to use is related to the depth of the rifling grooves----deeper for softer material. (?) If "Metal Point" denotes a bearing surface harder than lead, then I suppose that's to be considered.

There were bullets with only the nose covered in jacket material but lead bearing surface. Maybe that is what the label means. Have to pull one down to know.

Ralph and Jim, I read somewhere that the original Heavy Duty version of the pistol was made for the police who wanted a .38 revolver capable of piercing a car door in their fire fights with bootleggers. Consequently, the first ammo developed for the pistol was a lead bullet capped with a copper "cap" or "point" to prevent deformation in such as case. That might explain the "metal point" reference on those boxes. I have found a bullet company in Montana that casts the Elmer Keith 170 grain lead bullets he used in the .38/44 loads. Not ever having cast lead bullets for reloading, I wonder if you need to use gas checks on cast bullets you shoot at 1100 or so FPS?

Elmer did not like Gas Checks!
Back in the day, holding close to the Gospel of Elmer I have cast and shot a lot of Elmer design bullets.
I had the 150, 160 and 174 grain molds.
Mostly loaded the 174 in the 357.
Often loaded the 150 and 160 in 38 Special.
Shot a fair amount in my Outdoorsman.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Yeah, I don't like gas checks either but I also don't like leading in the bore. That's why I asked. I know in a rifle you have to keep velocities below a certain speed unless you use gas checks hence my question. I guess from your response there is no concerns at 1100 fps so I am good!

Given that you don't like leading in the bore, go to the Notable Thread Index Sticky in this section---to the "lead in barrel" thread. You won't find anything about prevention---only how to get the lead out----pretty much instantly---compliments of Wilson Combat, via me.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, thank you for directing me to that sticky! I have used chore boy pads in my rimfire guns that tend to get leaded. However, your description on precisely how to disassemble the pads is terrific! I always ended up with a big glob of chore boy copper on the brush! I have also used Frontier Big 45 pads in lieu of the chore boy pads.

Well I found a few pounds of WST powder and some 158 grain SWC bullets to buy so I will try my hand at reloading .38 Special for this pistol. Still looking for dies. I found that the ammo I had shot OK but not very consistent. Apparently, Winchester WST works well for target loads and burns clean. Anyone have any experience with this powder in .38 Special?

I know you didnt mention bulleye or Unique but
in my earlier reloading days I cant tell how many rounds of 3.0 bullseye and 3.5-4.0
unique Ive shot over 148 grain wadcutters.
A compareable load of your powder should mske a wonderful practice soft shooting load.
Please keep us informed on your 38/44
Outdoorsman journey.
I just am lucky to recently aquire mine.

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Fleabus, unfortunately I could not find those powders or anything else. I was hoping to find a powder that could be used in both target loads and +P loads but such was not to be in these times of scarce reloading supplies. One thing I really liked about WST from the reviews I found was that it is excellent for target loads and burns super clean. I really like your newly acquired .38/44! Love those grips!

I hope things improve on powder availability.
Your WST should do well on reloads. One day I may have to unbox my new in the box Rockchucker big reloading kit I bought 3-4 yrs
ago for poss future needs. May need it if the
crazy **** continues😁😁
Appreciate your comments on my old Smith.
The nice touch Curt does is doing A fine
checkering pattern that doesnt abrade your
mits gripping them on your palm grip or the
side panels. Just a real nice great feeling
hold on the revolver..
We are lucky to aquire an early well made
N Frame Target Model😄😄
Best on your future treasure searches OE Pete.
Randy..😉😉