S&W US Army Model 1917 British Proofed

1780inn · #1 04-03-2021, 11:45 AM

Here for your perusal is Smith & Wesson .45ACP US Army model of 1917 serial number 132134 with British Birmingham proofs on cylinder, frame and barrel. I recall reading/seeing information that some 20000 of these S&W 1917s were sent to the UK in 1940; perhaps this is one of them.

1780inn · #2 04-03-2021, 11:48 AM

A few more photos:

1780inn · #3 04-03-2021, 11:49 AM

One more to show serial number etc:

Wiregrassguy · #4 04-03-2021, 12:27 PM

That 1917 was made in November 1918. Could have been a private purchase as I see no broad arrow or viewer's marks. Or had the UK moved on from that in 1940?

Absalom · #5 04-03-2021, 01:39 PM

Revolvers that the British bought in a regular fashion through the British Purchasing Commission went to RSAF Enfield for unpacking and acceptance, and got the well-known stack of stampings on the left back frame and the crossed-pennant proof until fall 1941, when revolver shipments moved under Lend-lease.

But I do not know whether the batch of M1917s that were dispatched to Britain as a stopgap emergency help received that standard treatment. This one almost certainly belongs in that batch, and I can‘t detect any markings either.

PS: A quick forum search produced a few others with pictures, British post-war proofed but not acceptance-stamped, presumed from the same batch, so that confirms it.

20,100 guns in July 1940, straight from Army depots.

PALADIN85020 · #6 04-03-2021, 01:53 PM

i have what was evidently a lend-lease Model 1917 with British proofs on the cylinder.

John

1780inn · #7 04-03-2021, 02:35 PM

Thanks for the useful info; I'll send for the S&W letter to confirm shipment details.

Muley Gil · #8 04-03-2021, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1780inn

Thanks for the useful info; I'll send for the S&W letter to confirm shipment details.

The letter will only confirm the first shipment from S&W to the US Government in 1918. It won't have any info on the 1940 shipment.

Absalom · #9 04-03-2021, 08:02 PM

Not to appear picky, but the July 1940 shipment was not Lend-lease.

The Act was not passed until March 1941, revolvers were not included until late fall of that year.

Buford57 · #10 04-03-2021, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

Not to appear picky, but the July 1940 shipment was not Lend-lease.

The Act was not passed until March 1941, revolvers were not included until late fall of that year.

I never noticed that before. Do you know how they got around the Neutrality Act?

Absalom · #11 04-03-2021, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buford57

I never noticed that before. Do you know how they got around the Neutrality Act?

I don’t know the details, but I would think it was somehow slipped through under the cash-and-carry legislation which from 1939 had allowed FDR to bypass the Neutrality Act when it came to supplying Britain.

Muley Gil · #12 04-03-2021, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

Not to appear picky, but the July 1940 shipment was not Lend-lease.

The Act was not passed until March 1941, revolvers were not included until late fall of that year.

Picky, picky, picky!

I changed my post.

StrawHat · #13 04-04-2021, 05:33 AM

I have posted about the Model 1917 previously but here it is again. A Model 1917, built in 1918 that made it’s way to England at some point and acquired the appropriate stamps and such.

Kevin

Mk VII · #14 04-04-2021, 06:02 PM

The one I bought had no proof markings at all, and I had to point this out to the vendor, who had to get it proved and stamped.

1780inn · #15 04-07-2021, 11:59 AM

Can any identify this British proof mark on the side plate by the screw? Under a magnifying glass looks like a tine broad arrow at 1 o'clock.

ddixie884 · #16 04-07-2021, 02:32 PM

I'm proud that a bunch of these made it to Britain after Dunkirk and the loss of so many arms. I'm glad that Britain was strong enough to survive WWII. I'm glad they let a few of the arms we sent them escape to make it back to the USA. I'm very disappointed that the brit government destroyed the countless arms so kindly sent because they didn't trust their own people with personal arms.............

Mk VII · #17 04-07-2021, 03:58 PM

Not clear enough to tell. Might be a London proof mark.

Heinz · #18 04-07-2021, 04:58 PM

The Neutrality Act may be a clue to the lack of British proofs on these guns. They may have been treated as a civilian purchase of surplus pistols?

Absalom · #19 04-07-2021, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinz

The Neutrality Act may be a clue to the lack of British proofs on these guns. They may have been treated as a civilian purchase of surplus pistols?

That is an interesting thought. However, there’s something that would suggest that this wasn‘t a worry at this point:

When these were sent in July 1940, S&W was already producing .38 S&W-chambered M&P‘s for the South African military, a belligerent along with Britain, and the South Africans did property-stamp those revolvers. Legally, the 1917s would not have been different.

Mk VII · #20 04-07-2021, 05:39 PM

There's no requirement to prove them commercially when they go to the government.

Absalom · #21 04-07-2021, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mk VII

There's no requirement to prove them commercially when they go to the government.

We know that.

The issue under discussion here is the opposite: These are pre-Lend-lease government acquisitions without Enfield acceptance markings.

PJGP · #22 04-08-2021, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

That is an interesting thought. However, there’s something that would suggest that this wasn‘t a worry at this point:

When these were sent in July 1940, S&W was already producing .38 S&W-chambered M&P‘s for the South African military, a belligerent along with Britain, and the South Africans did property-stamp those revolvers. Legally, the 1917s would not have been different.

I don't know anything about the US Neutrality Act, but the early South African M&Ps were a staight commercial purchase, ie South African property.

Peter

Absalom · #23 04-08-2021, 04:05 PM

It has puzzled me a bit that this significant shipment of 20,100 Models 1917 does not show up in Charles Pate’s book except in a passing general remark about the US transfering obsolete munitions to Britain after Dunkirk. Elsewise Pate’s list with shipment data, including many much less significant guns and batches, are quite detailed. There must be little documentation to be found.

However, after some forum searching I came upon this from our friend Alan in Australia from 2013 in a thread about one of these. It’s the only background info I’ve discovered. I’m sure he won’t mind if I quote him; highlighting is mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanDavid

If your revolver has the remnant of red paint on the barrel, I strongly suspect it is one of the 20,000 .45 revolvers that were included in the 37 million dollar sale of artillery, ammunition and small arms, which the British government bought off the US Steel Company, the US government having sold the same day this equipment to the US Steel Co. This was to get around the US Neutrality Act which was in force at the time. This sale also included 500,000 Model 1917 rifles and 80,000 odd assorted machine guns as well as 500 .38 S&W revolves and 900 odd 75mm guns, etc.

My reaserch at the UK National Archives and American archives shows that, the contract was amended about 4 times and the total dollar value ended up being about $43 million, the final number of M1917 revolvers shipped was actually 20,100.

This was in July 1940 so well before Lend Lease, the guns were paid for by the British.
.......................................
...................
...............
Regards
AlanD
Sydney, Australia

Mk VII · #24 04-08-2021, 04:43 PM

Yes, the US Steel Export Corporation was created specially for the purpose.
These figures re taken from the Official History - 'Lee-Enfield' is wrong - should be M1917 Enfield, of course.

Mk VII · #25 04-08-2021, 05:11 PM

A more detailed list

Muley Gil · #26 04-08-2021, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mk VII

A more detailed list

I'll take a few of those 1917s at $7.50 each!

Kinman · #27 04-08-2021, 06:46 PM

Me too...Me too...

Mk VII · #28 04-08-2021, 07:15 PM

although many people in the Depression were earning five or ten cents an hour, if they were lucky enough to be working at all.

ddixie884 · #29 04-08-2021, 08:12 PM

Thankfully the free exchange of guns and money kept these guns in circulation. As a man with a few guns bought in good times could always sell them for cash to get through hard times. Guns have always been a hedge against inflation, like Gold. That is one reason old guns reappear when the old folks die and the grand kids sell off the antiques and guns for chump change..............

AlanDavid · #30 04-25-2021, 06:09 AM

The transaction through the U.S. Steel Corporation was a vehicle to get around the Neutrality Act, whereby the guns were 'sold' to a U.S. company, payment was by way of new war material to the exact value of the stuff on the list, or $37M odd, to be paid for by the UK. I finally found the schedule of new martial which the UK government was to pay for, it was mainly artillery and ammunition, no small arms.

I have never seen an Enfield inspected M1917 revolver and don't expect too, as I think the revolvers were issued straight away. I do have in my own collection a .30/06 Savage made Lewis aircraft gun which is Enfield inspection marked. Some of the machine guns that were sent were in need of repair and un-serviceable, so inspection was required. The 500,000 rifles were not inspected either, they were fine, being covered in thick Cosmolean which took hours to remove, by the Home Guardsmen to whom they were issued.

Regards

AlanD

jeeps · #31 04-25-2021, 07:39 AM

Thankyou for the answer!! Smith Wesson model 1917 English proofed

C,Mudrock · #32 04-25-2021, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanDavid

being covered in thick Cosmolean which took hours to remove, by the Home Guardsmen to whom they were issued.
AlanD

A bit off subject but: I always wondered if any weapons in heavy cosmoline - survived in useful condition - in any of the Ships sunk in salt water ?

Kinman · #33 04-25-2021, 12:00 PM

The LCU I was stationed on in Vietnam had been sitting in Luzon Harbor, P.I since the end of WWII. They packed them up and moved them to Vietnam, the hatches were all welded shut, we cut our way in and found all sorts of interesting stuff. The engine room was totally sprayed with cosmoline, the mechanics worked for days cleaning that **** off but in the end all three engines fired off as well as our generator. The other areas were covered with paint and required hours of chipping and painting but it didn't really take us all that long to get the 150' boat up and running, I'd say a week give or take a day or two. I was given the task of getting the ramp engine running, it was gasoline powered and I was the only guy with any lawn mower motor experience. It had been spared the cosmoline, the only real problem I had was finding a proper spark plug for a motor built in 1938.

jeeps · #34 04-26-2021, 06:33 AM

When I got the Sw 1917 the cylinder would not turn ,due to cosmoline. I had to run a hot hair dryer over the crane area to loosen it up. It was loaded with it. It to came from neighbors grandfather along with old Waltham 845 railroad grade pocket watch. The watch runs great as does the 1917.

Muley Gil · #35 04-26-2021, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeeps

When I got the Sw 1917 the cylinder would not turn ,due to cosmoline. I had to run a hot hair dryer over the crane area to loosen it up. It was loaded with it. It to came from neighbors grandfather along with old Waltham 845 railroad grade pocket watch. The watch runs great as does the 1917.

I'm glad for you that you have the 1917 and the watch, but I will never understand not passing along family heirlooms to a younger generation. I know some folks don't want firearms, but I've never heard of a watch phobia.

oldbrownhat · #36 04-28-2021, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddixie884

...I'm very disappointed that the brit government destroyed the countless arms so kindly sent because they didn't trust their own people with personal arms.............

This ^^^ It's getting that way up here north of the 49th as well, unfortunately.

jeeps · #37 04-29-2021, 06:32 PM

Yes after WW1 and the Russian revolution the Brits' cleared out firearms as well. And after WW2 destroyed to. Now knifes are illegal.

1780inn · #38 07-27-2021, 11:51 AM

According to the S&W Letter this revolver was shipped from the factory on April 14, 1918 and delivered to United States Armory Springfield MA.

dickydalton · #39 07-27-2021, 02:03 PM

I have a 1917 that must be comercial, no US Property stamp. But it has a lot of british proof marks and is 45 Auto Rim.

Muley Gil · #40 07-27-2021, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dickydalton

I have a 1917 that must be comercial, no US Property stamp. But it has a lot of british proof marks and is 45 Auto Rim.

Does it have the US ARMY MODEL OF 1917 stamp on the butt.

Jack Flash · #41 07-27-2021, 05:50 PM

From the letter:
"We have no information as to where your revolver was shipped from the Armory."

I'll bet it was "Somewhere in France."

dickydalton · #42 11-03-2021, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Does it have the US ARMY MODEL OF 1917 stamp on the butt.

No, just the SN. And I just measured the barrel and it's 6 1/2" and stamped matching SN. This is unusual.

Wiregrassguy · #43 11-03-2021, 02:03 PM

Dicky, I believe you have a .455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model that was converted to .45 AR. Is the .45 AR stamped above a crossed out .455 similar to below:

jeeps · #44 11-26-2021, 09:14 AM

Mine is stamped U.S.Army Model 1917. In 1941 the U.S.A. sold 21k of SW model 1917's along with Lewis guns and Stokes mortars trough the U.S. Steel company as scrap metal to get around the Neutrality Law. After Pearl Harbor there was Lend Lease. R.A.F. pilots and home guard used them as well as others.

AlanDavid · #45 11-27-2021, 09:26 PM

The 20,000 pistols along with all the other munitions totaling $37,619,556 were declared surplus. These were then to be exchanged - not sold - for $37,619,556 worth of other equipment, which the U.S. military wanted. This was mostly artillery, it is this equipment that the British paid for while the surplus munitions was shipped to the UK. The U.S. steel Corp acted as a broker without making a commission.This occurred during July/September 1940. Although the original schedule or list showed $37.6 million it was added to 3 or 4 times and finally became about $46 million, in value. As to the quantities shown on the list such as 20,000 .45 DA revolvers 25,000 BAR's and so on, in nearly all cases the actual quantity delivered is as variants. In the case of the S&W .45 DA's these came in at 20,100. They were split 50/50 with the Middle East Command and the Air Ministry. None went to the Home Guard.
Air Ministry marked examples with a crown over the letters AM, are extremely scares . I have only documented 2 so far - presumably not all of the 10,000 were marked?

Regards

AlanD

dickydalton · #46 12-16-2023, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Dicky, I believe you have a .455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model that was converted to .45 AR. Is the .45 AR stamped above a crossed out .455 similar to below:

No, it is the original stamp on the barrel.

StrawHat · #47 12-16-2023, 11:26 PM

dickydalton,

Some images would be nice so we can try and piece the story together.

Kevin

Wiregrassguy · #48 12-16-2023, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dickydalton

No, it is the original stamp on the barrel.

Dickey, that can't be because S&W didn't make a model 1917 chambered for AR. As Kevin said, we need to see some pictures so we can figure out how this stamp got to be looking like an original.

jeeps · #49 12-17-2023, 10:04 AM

The 1940 shipment was slipped into England as scrap metal along with Lewis guns and Stokes mortars. No broad arrow marks ,just pressure proofs. A back door shipment to avoid breaking the Neutrality and peace groups in the U.S.A.

dickydalton · #50 12-17-2023, 03:44 PM

19174.jpg | The High Road