Here for your perusal is Smith & Wesson .45ACP US Army model of 1917 serial number 132134 with British Birmingham proofs on cylinder, frame and barrel. I recall reading/seeing information that some 20000 of these S&W 1917s were sent to the UK in 1940; perhaps this is one of them.

Attached Thumbnails

         

A few more photos:

Attached Thumbnails

         

One more to show serial number etc:

Attached Thumbnails

 

That 1917 was made in November 1918. Could have been a private purchase as I see no broad arrow or viewer's marks. Or had the UK moved on from that in 1940?

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA #2629

Revolvers that the British bought in a regular fashion through the British Purchasing Commission went to RSAF Enfield for unpacking and acceptance, and got the well-known stack of stampings on the left back frame and the crossed-pennant proof until fall 1941, when revolver shipments moved under Lend-lease.

But I do not know whether the batch of M1917s that were dispatched to Britain as a stopgap emergency help received that standard treatment. This one almost certainly belongs in that batch, and I can‘t detect any markings either.

PS: A quick forum search produced a few others with pictures, British post-war proofed but not acceptance-stamped, presumed from the same batch, so that confirms it.

20,100 guns in July 1940, straight from Army depots.

i have what was evidently a lend-lease Model 1917 with British proofs on the cylinder.

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Thanks for the useful info; I'll send for the S&W letter to confirm shipment details.

The letter will only confirm the first shipment from S&W to the US Government in 1918. It won't have any info on the 1940 shipment.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Not to appear picky, but the July 1940 shipment was not Lend-lease.

The Act was not passed until March 1941, revolvers were not included until late fall of that year.

I never noticed that before. Do you know how they got around the Neutrality Act?

__________________
RIP Bob, Jimx3, Rowdy, Rick

I don’t know the details, but I would think it was somehow slipped through under the cash-and-carry legislation which from 1939 had allowed FDR to bypass the Neutrality Act when it came to supplying Britain.

Picky, picky, picky!

I changed my post.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I have posted about the Model 1917 previously but here it is again. A Model 1917, built in 1918 that made it’s way to England at some point and acquired the appropriate stamps and such.

Kevin

Attached Thumbnails

     

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

The one I bought had no proof markings at all, and I had to point this out to the vendor, who had to get it proved and stamped.

Can any identify this British proof mark on the side plate by the screw? Under a magnifying glass looks like a tine broad arrow at 1 o'clock.

Attached Thumbnails

   

I'm proud that a bunch of these made it to Britain after Dunkirk and the loss of so many arms. I'm glad that Britain was strong enough to survive WWII. I'm glad they let a few of the arms we sent them escape to make it back to the USA. I'm very disappointed that the brit government destroyed the countless arms so kindly sent because they didn't trust their own people with personal arms.............

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Not clear enough to tell. Might be a London proof mark.

The Neutrality Act may be a clue to the lack of British proofs on these guns. They may have been treated as a civilian purchase of surplus pistols?

__________________
Kind regards, Heinz

That is an interesting thought. However, there’s something that would suggest that this wasn‘t a worry at this point:

When these were sent in July 1940, S&W was already producing .38 S&W-chambered M&P‘s for the South African military, a belligerent along with Britain, and the South Africans did property-stamp those revolvers. Legally, the 1917s would not have been different.

There's no requirement to prove them commercially when they go to the government.

We know that.

The issue under discussion here is the opposite: These are pre-Lend-lease government acquisitions without Enfield acceptance markings.

I don't know anything about the US Neutrality Act, but the early South African M&Ps were a staight commercial purchase, ie South African property.

Peter

It has puzzled me a bit that this significant shipment of 20,100 Models 1917 does not show up in Charles Pate’s book except in a passing general remark about the US transfering obsolete munitions to Britain after Dunkirk. Elsewise Pate’s list with shipment data, including many much less significant guns and batches, are quite detailed. There must be little documentation to be found.

However, after some forum searching I came upon this from our friend Alan in Australia from 2013 in a thread about one of these. It’s the only background info I’ve discovered. I’m sure he won’t mind if I quote him; highlighting is mine.

“If your revolver has the remnant of red paint on the barrel, I strongly suspect it is one of the 20,000 .45 revolvers that were included in the 37 million dollar sale of artillery, ammunition and small arms, which the British government bought off the US Steel Company, the US government having sold the same day this equipment to the US Steel Co. This was to get around the US Neutrality Act which was in force at the time. This sale also included 500,000 Model 1917 rifles and 80,000 odd assorted machine guns as well as 500 .38 S&W revolves and 900 odd 75mm guns, etc.

My reaserch at the UK National Archives and American archives shows that, the contract was amended about 4 times and the total dollar value ended up being about $43 million, the final number of M1917 revolvers shipped was actually 20,100.

This was in July 1940 so well before Lend Lease, the guns were paid for by the British.”

Yes, the US Steel Export Corporation was created specially for the purpose.
These figures re taken from the Official History - 'Lee-Enfield' is wrong - should be M1917 Enfield, of course.

Attached Thumbnails

 

A more detailed list

Attached Thumbnails

 

I'll take a few of those 1917s at $7.50 each!

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Me too...Me too...

although many people in the Depression were earning five or ten cents an hour, if they were lucky enough to be working at all.

Thankfully the free exchange of guns and money kept these guns in circulation. As a man with a few guns bought in good times could always sell them for cash to get through hard times. Guns have always been a hedge against inflation, like Gold. That is one reason old guns reappear when the old folks die and the grand kids sell off the antiques and guns for chump change..............

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV