UPDATED: new info and serial# - 1942 Victory I may refinish…. need advice on bluing
I’m looking at a Victory .38 S&W for a $200. The issue is that at some point it was stripped of it’s finish. The gun has perfect lockup, the barrel is in great shape, and all the parts are there. It’s a true Victory, not a converted one.
I am considering having it reblued but wanted to ask where you guys have found the best / most true to original bluing outfit and an estimate of pricing.
Thanks
Last edited by ChargerBill; 08-25-2021 at 10:13 PM.
Bluing-----------?? My knee-jerk reply is they were Parkerized, but having said that, maybe the early guns were blued. Whatever, there are a whole bunch of folks who are nuts for Victories, and have forgotten more than I know about them---and not many of them are so bashful they won't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Regardless of the final finish, I'd be inclined to have the surface prepared authentically---whatever that is----bead blasting/sand blasting.
To be honest I really didn’t know they were Parkerized. My intention is to have a nice looking useable gun that won’t become botched in the process. Basically a functional restoration…even though I know the originality value is gone. I honestly don’t care about that… I like shooting my guns and not having to worry about them rusting away. The historical value is really all I’m interested in with this particular gun.
Unless I can find a decent shooter grade with a fair amount of finish for less than $500…I’ll just fix this one up.
Ok, just looked up the parkerizing process and didn’t realize it is the same as phosphating, which I have done to engine bay components on older car restorations.
Looks like I can refinish the gun myself. That’s what is called a win win. Sweet!
If you only want a shooter, just keep the stripped gun oiled or waxed.
I bought a stripped 1917 frame back around 2006. Between forum member tennexplorer and myself, we had enough parts to make a complete revolver. It is still in the white and hasn't rusted in all that time
Well, they were Parkerized---and blued (both Bright Blue and "sandblast blue")---and which depends on when. All these words of wisdom come to you from Charles W. Pate's 360 some-odd pages titled U.S.Handguns of World War II--- one of the many books I've owned for 20+ years without spending enough time with them.
So----you said 1942. They were "sandblast blue" until March (+/-), and sandblast "Black Magic" (parkerized) from then on to the end of the war. The folks at the SWHF (historical foundation) can tell you when your gun shipped. That information is part of what's provided in a so-called historical letter---and may be contained in this book, albeit perhaps less precisely.
"You pays your money, and you takes your pick."
Ralph Tremaine
And yes, Pate's book shows the number of guns shipped by month starting with October 1941, ending March 1945. Footnotes suggest that contracts for the .38-200 were completed in sequence----such lingo also suggests one could do the math and determine the month shipped for any particular serial number------assuming one knew which serial number was the first to go. (The limited time I've spent with this book suggests that information is also in there.)
ChargerBill, I kinda understand what you want to do, as I have (no comparison to yours) a Model 10-8 that is functionally in excellent condition but on close (within a few feet) examination it just begs for some love! It was 10 years old+/- when I got it 22 years ago. Kind of like a coroner, the worst I can do is bring it back to life! Every time I touch it I think re-blue. Lately it's been parkerizing it. Then I put it away until the next time. Whatever you do, I hope you let us know and maybe a picture or two; perhaps a $ sign followed by what you paid to make it look like it does. (If that makes any sense.) I'd like to have something cheap but good lookin'. And you guys know what I mean so keep your minds on guns!!!
Heck, a can of flat engine black could do!
But appearance-wise the outcome isn’t that different from parkerizing/phosphating, so if you can do the latter, and the gun’s original finish is indeed stripped beyond salvage, I’d go for that.
But appearance-wise the outcome isn’t that different from parkerizing/phosphating, so if you can do the latter, and the gun’s original finish is indeed stripped beyond salvage, I’d go for that.
That was very interesting. Thanks for posting this.
This is a Victory I did in my back yard with a portable sandblasting kit from Harbor Freight and an AGI Parkerizing kit from Brownell's. But, you don't need the Park kit if you can make your own solution or have some already.
Since acquiring some Victory revolvers, studying the history, etc., they have sort of become my favorite Smith revolver. I have a M10 2 1/2" snub I put together and the finish is not good. I have, so far, decided to get it CeraKoted (sp) by an outfit here in the county that does excellent work. I had a M1911A1 done a few years ago and it looks and works great. I have been waiting for their work load to subside some so they can do my revolver.
I bought the gun today. He also had a second set / replacement hammer and trigger that still had nice case hardened color…the original ones were stripped also. He was trying to get $120 for the hammer and trigger as a set…I got everything plus 100 rounds of military ball ammo for $270. The gun has been purposefully stripped by someone prior to him owning it and it has minor surface rust.
My intention is to bead blast the whole thing (not the guts) and immediately store it in water displacing oil until I can get my home Parkerizing setup up and running.
The action is actually as nice as my Model 19 (which has had a trigger job and new mainspring and rebound spring) and the bore seems as though the gun was hardly fired…it is nicer than any of my 4 Smith revolvers.
I will update this post once my 10 days has passed and it is in my possession and then I will update the restoration process.
I do need a set of period correct grips…. if anyone out there has any leads.
I’m looking at a Victory .38 S&W for a $200. The issue is that at some point it was stripped of it’s finish. The gun has perfect lockup, the barrel is in great shape, and all the parts are there. It’s a true Victory, not a converted one . . .
I believe all Victory revolvers were chambered in 38 Special, not 38 S&W. That is what the barrel stamping should say.
I believe all Victory revolvers were chambered in 38 Special, not 38 S&W. That is what the barrel stamping should say.
Gary:
Within the approx. 800,000 guns of the V prefix, a very rough estimate puts about 350,000 US variants in .38 Special and 450,000 BSR variants in .38 S&W.
My point was that if it is chambered in 38 S&W it is not a Victory, but rather a BSR.
Ah. It occurred to me later that you might be thinking along those lines. The Victory term is indeed used by some exclusively for the US variant.
However, it‘s important to keep in mind that the “Victory” term was not in common use during its active duty time. It appears in a few S&W advertisements for DSC revolvers during the war, but was used neither by the company nor by the military or any ofher users. If you’d asked a Navy pilot in 1944 about his “Victory model”, you’d have gotten a blank stare.
The term did not become widespread until the post-war surplus trade. And since then it has been more common to apply it to all V-prefix revolvers, regardless of caliber. So just like BSR, it’s an anachronistic collector term, and its acceptance isn’t a matter of correctness, but consensus.
So how does this reconcile when the gun has a v stamped into it and is chambered in .38 S&W?
Does the v stamp not correlate to Victory?
From what I have read and been told, many of these were repatriated and most of them were converted to .38 Special.
Can someone give a better explanation of the timing of these guns coming back and the likelihood of one remaining .38 S&W?
I’m not clear what it is you don’t understand, so here is the basic thing:
Between 1942 and 1945 the .38 M&P (which is the only term S&W officially used for it) had a serial number with a V prefix and was produced in both .38 S&W for Lend-Lease to Britain, and in .38 Special for US use.
The V is not a separate stamp, but part of the serial. The “Victory” is not the model name, but just a marketing moniker.
The guns sent to Britain were surplused out in the 1950s/60s and sold for scrap value. Many were reimported to the US by various international dealers and converted to .38 Special to make them more attractive to US customers as cheap shooters.
Some were not converted. Collectors prefer those. The one you are considering apparently was not converted, although I’d confirm that since converted guns were not usually marked as such.
I put the .38 S&W round into the cylinder myself, and I have 2 boxes of it. The chambers in the cylinder are shouldered (have a step in them). The .38 S&W round is considerably shorter than the .38 special. I know this gun has not been converted, so apparently it is not an actual Victory.
Since it will have no real collectors value due to it’s finish being gone and needing refinish, I am considering the possibility of converting it… it really won’t be a functional shooter for long if I only have 100 rounds to shoot.
Does the barrel need to be swapped out or altered? Can the cylinder be made to shoot .38 special by simply removing the internal step / shoulder? I know some are saying the cases will expand and may get stuck.
Bill, generally speaking, any S&W revolver with a V prefix is called a Victory model. A subset of those are chambered for the British in .38 S&W and are also called the British Service Revolver. As previously stated, many BSRs were returned to the US on the surplus market and were either modified in the UK before being imported or were modified in the US to chamber .38 Special. This was typically done by reaming the cylinder to allow the longer .38 Special cartridge to chamber. Guns so modified will have two shoulders in each chamber and can shoot either cartridge. Accuracy with the .38 Special may be affected because the bullet is of smaller diameter. And cases will swell and may crack. The .38 S&W cartridge is still being manufactured although it may be hard to find right now as practically all cartridges are and it is more expensive than .38 Special. There is also the option to reload the .38 S&W cases. If you intend to shoot it a lot, this may be the cheapest option.
My Victory is 4" 38 Spl, US Navy stamped and shipped December 17, 1942. Note the Letter of Authenticity uses the terminology "Victory Model" in several places and with caps, so maybe not "official" during WWII time, but I'm not arguing with anyone that it isn't used profusely these days.
Also note the rough appearing finish on my 4" and on 2 pics of my buddies 5" BSR. According to the LOA it was called Military Black Magic". I believe it was in Pates Book that I read that S&W was sued and enjoined from using true "parkerizing" (for not paying royalties to Parker Co.) so they switched to the black magic terminology.
In any event both finishes look, and feel alike on both my friends BSR and my Navy. Both have V prefix serial no.s and grips match. My buddies has an interesting story of wartime. The gun has no British proof marks, is GHD inspected, and has no import marks whatsoever. It has been in his family since WWII in that his father-in-law was captain of an LST and was given this gun by a British officer who evac'd off Normandy aboard his ship around D-Day.
Maybe the above will help in your determinations of what to do with your Victory.
So now I must say that I am royally confused. I attempted to put a .38 special cartridge into this 38 S& W revolver end it actually seats properly. I don’t know if this means I can shoot .38 special through it, or if I can’t. But the reality is that both rounds chamber properly.
I think I may need to post phots, but it will be a little over a week before I have the gun in my possession. I’ll update this post when I get those pics.
So now I must say that I am royally confused. I attempted to put a .38 special cartridge into this 38 S& W revolver end it actually seats properly. I don’t know if this means I can shoot .38 special through it, or if I can’t. But the reality is that both rounds chamber properly.
.
And that just means somebody already converted it by reaming the chambers. The. 38 S&W is a bit fatter, but shorter. So the chambers just get lengthened a bit to make the .38 Special fit, but the original caliber still works too.
As mentioned, these conversions weren‘t marked on the gun, so unless you have experience looking at these cylinders, you don‘t know for sure unless you do the test you did.
You can safely shoot both calibers. Don‘t expect tack-driving accuracy, expect some bulging with Special, and stay away from +P higher-pressure ammo.
So I went and finished my paperwork today and the gun is stamped as follows on the barrel:
“.38 S & W Special CTG”
The .38 Special cartridges do chamber. There is a dark ring 2/3rd of the way inside each chamber which I miss took for a shoulder.
Also, SADLY, some file happy goon in the past life of this gun tried to turn the square butt into a round butt. It has been wearing old 50’s style blacl plastic Pachmyr grips, and I just figured I would find an old set of stock wood ones (which I did for $10) and put them on. Not possible with the butchered frame. Now I figure I’ll put on a set of the old wood target grips from a model 10 or 19…
Serial number 559xxx
Last edited by ChargerBill; 08-25-2021 at 10:16 PM.
UPDATED: new info and serial# - 1942 Victory I may refinish…. need advice on bluing
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