Good afternoon! I just picked up a beautiful 1905 Hand Ejector (SN 2859XX) in trade. I'm a relatively new collector, do I'm asking the greater collective to assist me with details / identification. I'm assuming its a 4th Change (based on SN) but some details aren't adding up to me...

Details (Pics to follow):
K Frame, Round Butt
5 Screw
4" BBL with Service sights
Older style Plastic Diamond Grips with SW Logo (Is this the correct grip?)
Flat/non-serrated trigger
Case Hardened hammer/trigger
SN on cylinder / frame match.

Markings (here's where I had questions):
Left Side of BBL: "Smith & Wesson"
Right side of BBL: '38 S&W Special CTG'
Frame is marked with the SN (bottom of Butt), with NO other visible markings. NO S&W Logo / NO 'made in USA'. Is this unusual?

What do I have here? It's in beautiful condition...thanks for any/all info!

285379 shipped in 10/1917, yours probably shipped sometime close to that. It is simply a .38 Special M&P model. S&W revolvers made during WWI and into 1920-21 did not have the S&W logo, sort of a wartime expediency. The "Made In USA" stamp did not exist prior to 1921. The "Change" is purely a collector convention, S&W did not use it. But some might call it a 4th Change.

Thank you, really appreciate the info! I'm attempting to upload a couple of pictures....

David Short has shared 1 photo with you! | Flickr

I took the liberty of saving and posting your picture looks like a very nice example to me.

Attached Images

20210920_172022.jpg (260.7 KB, 527 views)

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Randy

Very nice! Hard to find in that condition. Would like to see one around here like that. For a new collector your doing great.😎

I think the Grips are hard rubber not plastic.

Correct. Standard issue in those days. The S/N should be scratched into the right panel.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

While some wooden round butt grips exist, most round butt grips were made of black hard rubber. If there is a SN scratched on the inside of the right grip panel, yours are probably factory original. There is always a debate about whether round butt M&Ps should be called the Model of 1902, but that doesn't apply in this case. Around the beginning of WWI, S&W ceased calling them the Model of 1902 (which had round butt) or the Model of 1905 (same gun but which had a square butt), and began calling them all simply M&Ps, often identifying "round butt" versions in parentheses, i.e., "Military and Police (round butt)", which describes yours well. You do NOT have a Model of 1905, as those no longer existed when yours was made. There have in the past been some very argumentative, lengthy, and boring threads about the confusing differences between the Model of 1902 and the Model of 1905. Hopefully, this won't start any more of them, as yours is neither.

Yep. Here is how they were labeled on the box. This particular box is from the mid-1940s, but I have them from the late teens and early '20s and the label reads the same way. I just don't have a picture handy to post.


This is the often-stated description. But it isn't always true. I have one that left the factory with hard rubber stocks in March, 1916, and the serial number is impressed into the rubber with a die stamp (very much like they did with walnut stocks beginning in the 1930s). The point being, the serial number should be there, but it may be scratched or it may be stamped. On walnut stocks it was written with a pencil through the 1920s.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

By the way, it is nice to have DWalt back, after a prolonged absence!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Well, in addition to whatever else one might want to call it, it is clearly a fugitive from a sock drawer!!

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you! Technology had pretty much defeated my efforts!

And I took the liberty of posting it full size......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Show off..... lol

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Randy

Busted again......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

I have been calling my M&P made in 1915 by the full name that I’ve seen used, 1905,M&P, 4th chg.

But DWalt is correct it must be a collector thing. My box just says, 38 M&P square butt.

Nice looking guns.

I've checked, and there is a 4 digit serial # scratched into the inside R/H grip. I really appreciate all the information....I learn from y'all daily!

Your serial number is 6 digits, not 4 digits. Do the 4 digits correspond to a portion of the serial number, or to the work order number that ought to be found stamped on the inside of the yoke, or the frame where the yoke closes in on it ? If not, then the grips probably came from an earlier (4-digit serial number) revolver.

Some additional pictures would be helpful, particularly of the flat area under the barrel. That should show the serial number on the flat, along with other useful information. Your gun has a beautiful finish, but I'm not convinced that its original. The one picture you have is not conclusive. The region around the top side plate screw, where the side plate meets the frame, is suspicious, to me.

If you need help posting the pictures, email them to me ([email protected]) and I will post them for you.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Thank you, Mike, email on its way!

Here are more pictures for this revolver.



























Nice photography!

Regards, Mike Priwer

Those stocks are clearly marked 7029, which means they would have been on an 1899. Very interesting that they are in the condition as shown, being over 120 years old.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Could also have been on a 32-20 model of 1902!

Regards, Mike

Here are some more pictures of the gun. The first two establish that the work order number is on both the frame and the yoke.





The next two pictures are close-ups of the front and back sides of the grips.





The last picture shows (most) of the patent date on the bottom edge of the left grip.



These pictures are intended to deal with the remaining mystery about the gun, and that is the number scratched on the inside of the right grip. It is not the work order number, as confirmed by the first two pictures. It's not the serial number of this gun. If it is a .38 serial number, its 15 or more years earlier than the serial number, and if its a 32-20 serial number, then its maybe 13-14 years earlier than this guns serial number. Whatever that number is, I would say that its far too early for those grips to have been shipped on the gun.

I thought that, possibly, the original grips were damaged, and the gun was sent back to the factory for a new pair of grips, and the service department might have scratched that number onto the left grip. There is no record that the gun went back to the factory.

The mystery remains!

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, how long was the patent number stamped on the grip bottom?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I was looking this morning at a recently acquired .32 HE 5th change for the number expected to be scratched inside the right panel of the hard rubber grips...What I found was two letters and four digits scratched, but the gun's S/N was stamped in the same panel using the same size and font of the number on the bottom of the grip frame...A star also preceded the frame S/N indicating it had been returned to the factory at some point......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Gil

Here is a better picture of the full patent date on the bottom of the grp.



I believe the last part of the date supposed to be '79, for 1879. Guess they were not worried about 19K, and probably not Y2k !

Regards, Mike Priwer

The patent would have expired in 1899, so how long the molds lasted after that is anybody's guess. I checked my M&Ps to find the last one I have with the patent date on the left stock was serial number 80,881 that shipped in 1906.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

All, thank you for sharing your knowledge…I continue to be amazed at all the folks willing to help with info. A Special thanks to Mike for posting pics and leading the charge. I plan to obtain a factory letter for this one; will share once received.

For those who are interested, here is the 1878 patent.

Attached Images

38 SA Stocks Design Patent 10422.jpg (114.9 KB, 145 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Around the beginning of WWI, S&W ceased calling them the Model of 1902 (which had round butt) or the Model of 1905 (same gun but which had a square butt), and began calling them all simply M&Ps,[/QUOTE]

I had a Model of 1902 that I sold to another member here. I have a Model of 1905 shipped in May of 1913.
I think the Model of 1902 is not a 5 screw frame. The one I had did not have the screw in front of the trigger guard.(If I remember correctly).
Have been told that there are some differences in the action between the two models.

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David Reynolds

Very nice revolver. I borrowed a buds .45 acp round butt Smith reissue when my Colt New Service acted up at our clubs BAM match a couple months ago and really liked the feel. All of my old martial N frame Smiths have square butts. Good thread.

Gents, I wanted to follow up on this thread. Factory letter received today with a bit more info. I mentioned the mystery with the grip 4 digit number, and they proposed a couple of theories.

Letter took around 3.5 weeks to arrive, pretty quick!

Attached Images

letter.jpg (125.2 KB, 41 views)

Dead bang on! Shipped 10/31/1917! Pic of letter above