Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W

Jaeger2000 · #1 09-22-2021, 11:50 AM

Hello everybody, I am new to this place and looking for help identifying my first S&W revolver.

Type: Hand Ejector

S/N: 202xxx

Caliber: 38 S&W Spl

Barrel length: 2 inches

Sights: Fixed

Strain Screw: Yes

Butt Swivel: No

Lanyard Ring: No

Screws: 5

Thank you so much for helping me out!

DWalt · #2 09-22-2021, 12:01 PM

It could be any of several different revolvers. You will need to add a good photo or two to determine what it is. Regarding the serial number, does it have a letter prefix? If so, that will also be needed.

squidsix · #3 09-22-2021, 12:01 PM

Five shots or six?

hkcavalier · #4 09-22-2021, 12:02 PM

Please post pictures. Don't believe S&W shipped any .38 Specials with 2" barrels in the time period correlating to that serial number. If it's actually C202xxx, then it's a snub nosed M&P from after WWII, probably early 1950s.

rct269 · #5 09-22-2021, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkcavalier

Please post pictures. Don't believe S&W shipped any .38 Specials with 2" barrels in the time period correlating to that serial number. If it's actually C202xxx, then it's a snub nosed M&P from after WWII, probably early 1950s.

And "M&P" is S&W speak for Military & Police---a phrase we were familiar with since from before we were weaned. That's the only reason/excuse for our use of it with newcomers who may or may not, and probably don't have any idea what it means. My apologies from all for seeming to be
so presumptuous-------we mean well.

Ralph Tremaine

Jaeger2000 · #6 09-22-2021, 12:36 PM

> Regarding the serial number, does it have a letter prefix?

No prefix.

> Five shots or six?

Six.

Attached you will find three pictures. If you need me to take a picture of a specific part, please let me know.

s&wchad · #7 09-22-2021, 12:48 PM

Post photos of the entire gun. It looks like the ejector rod was shortened, so I’d guess a later 2” barrel was added.

DWalt · #8 09-22-2021, 12:52 PM

A full side view showing both sides of the entire gun would be more helpful.

Jaeger2000 · #9 09-22-2021, 12:55 PM

> A full side view showing both sides of the entire gun would be more helpful.

Got it.

DWalt · #10 09-22-2021, 01:52 PM

Definitely a later conversion of an early K-frame, but it's an odd one. The serial number suggests it is from around 1913, but it has the MADE IN USA frame stamp which was not used until around 1922. The 2" barrel is undeniably a much later add-on, and the extractor rod has been shortened to fit. The grips have probably never been anywhere near the S&W factory. Maybe others can come up with a better explanation.

jcelect · #11 09-22-2021, 02:05 PM

That grip frame has been reshaped! The grips screw is too low and the main spring strain screw is too low. I think the grips are S&W, because of the hardware shown, but reshaped and recheckered(nice job)! Maybe the serial number was restamped! ? ! This is most diffinetly a reworked gun!
IMHO jcelect

DWalt · #12 09-22-2021, 02:10 PM

Can you determine if there is a SN stamped on the rear face of the cylinder? There is something really fishy about that frame, as I think it may have been parts of two frames joined together. With the grips removed can you see any evidence of welding? I can't explain how such an earlier SN frame could have the MADE IN USA stamp otherwise. Regardless, what you have is a Frankengun, maybe an OK shooter but of no collectible value.

Jaeger2000 · #13 09-22-2021, 02:41 PM

> Can you determine if there is a SN stamped on the rear face of the cylinder?

Yes and it matches the two numbers on the frame (one at bottom of grip, one behind the yoke).

> With the grips removed can you see any evidence of welding?

No, refer to attached pictures.

Thank you for your help, guys.

DWalt · #14 09-22-2021, 02:59 PM

The mystery deepens. The grip frame seems to be the typical Model of 1902 round butt. No stampings are visible that indicates it has ever been sent back to S&W for factory service work.

Just a little additional information on the 2" barrels. S&W made no K-frame snubbies until around 1933-34, and very few of those were made during the rest of the decade. And the 2" barrel style was considerably different from yours, which is more typical of the mid-1950s and later. All factory extractor rods for snubbies were short, but they had a knurled tip, not plain like yours. This is a correct 1947 M&P (square butt) snubby for comparison, showing the early barrel style and the knurled extractor rod tip.

handejector · #15 09-22-2021, 03:17 PM

Jaeger,
I bet you might be in Germany. That blue on the frame sure reminds me of rust blue I've seen on some German guns.
If so, I think you might have a reworked/customized WW II Victory or British Service Revolver. Those grips could easily be made from smooth Victory grips.
Show us the serial number on the cylinder, and a look inside the chambers. Also, is there a number on the bottom of the barrel?

DWalt · #16 09-22-2021, 03:29 PM

I don't believe there were ever any round butt BSRs. And for a SN to be in the 202xxx range, it would necessarily have a V prefix to be a Victory/BSR. But it does not. No doubt it was converted from something else, but very probably not a Victory/BSR.

Jaeger2000 · #17 09-22-2021, 03:39 PM

> I bet you might be in Germany.

Correct.

> Show us the serial number on the cylinder, and a look inside the chambers.

Refer to picture attached.

> Also, is there a number on the bottom of the barrel?

No.

DWalt · #18 09-22-2021, 03:46 PM

Chambers have not been re-bored from .38 S&W to .38 Special. And there's no V prefix on the cylinder SN either. It's almost enough to make one think that it does not have an S&W frame. But if it's a copy, it is an extremely fine one. Not too surprising that there is no SN on the barrel, and there are several reasons why that could be possible.

handejector · #19 09-22-2021, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

Chambers have not been re-bored from .38 S&W to .38 Special. And there's no V prefix on the cylinder SN. It almost makes one think that it does not have an S&W frame. But if it's a copy, it is an extremely good one.

That is an altered frame. It is a square butt that has been cut, bent, and welded. Look at how close the pin and the mainspring slot are to the bottom of the butt. It has been shortened enough to remove the serial number. A new number, which MAY be the assembly number, has been stamped on the butt.
The barrel and cylinder are probably modern parts. Look at the ratchet- it is more modern than an original long action ratchet. They appear to have the Factory blue and they do not match the blue finish on the frame. I think the gunsmith applied the number to the cylinder.

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-img_0429-jpg

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-img_0429-jpg

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-img_0430-jpg

george_lehr · #20 09-22-2021, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcelect

That grip frame has been reshaped! The grips screw is too low and the main spring strain screw is too low. I think the grips are S&W, because of the hardware shown, but reshaped and recheckered(nice job)! Maybe the serial number was restamped! ? ! This is most diffinetly a reworked gun!
IMHO jcelect

I agree. So I see no mystery; it's an old gun with a reshaped grip frame, nicely re-stamped serial #, much newer design 2" barrel and a nice re-blue job.

By the way OP, welcome to the forum.

George

Jaeger2000 · #21 09-22-2021, 04:53 PM

Sounds plausible. It was a steal, so I don't mind it having no value as a collectible. All I do care about is that it is safe to shoot.

Thank you very much guys.

Vtgw938 · #22 09-22-2021, 04:58 PM

I like it regardless!

handejector · #23 09-22-2021, 04:58 PM

Jaeger-
There is one more place you might find the original serial number- remove the cylinder from the gun and look at the back side of the yoke, and tell us what you see here-

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-011-copy-jpg

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-011-copy-jpg

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-095-4-jpg

Jaeger2000 · #24 09-22-2021, 05:10 PM

Found a #: D742xxx

handejector · #25 09-22-2021, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaeger2000

Found a #: D742xxx

Where is that number?

Jaeger2000 · #26 09-22-2021, 05:19 PM

> Where is that number?

On the back side of the yoke, the spot you indicated in your pictures. I removed the cylinder to get to it.

goatsnguns · #27 09-22-2021, 05:45 PM

I noticed fine checkering on the top strap. It would seem whomever did the work was somewhat of a artist.

handejector · #28 09-22-2021, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaeger2000

> Where is that number?

On the back side of the yoke, the spot you indicated in your pictures. I removed the cylinder to get to it.

Are you sure it has a D? If so, the gunsmith must have added that number. By the time D742xxx was made, yokes were no longer being numbered.

Also- the frame is definitely 1948 or before. D742xxx would be from the mid 1970s. So, that does not help us determine the original serial number.

Jaeger2000 · #29 09-22-2021, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

Are you sure it has a D? If so, the gunsmith must have added that number. By the time D742xxx was made, yokes were no longer being numbered.

Also- the frame is definitely 1948 or before. D742xxx would be from the mid 1970s. So, that does not help us determine the original serial number.

Unfortunately, I am. Thank you for your help anyway. You guys are awesome!

DWalt · #30 09-22-2021, 06:56 PM

One more place to look for a SN - the back side of the extractor star. I am somewhat unconvinced that whoever did the job would go to the trouble of putting the butt SN on the cylinder (or anywhere else unless it was done at S&W). If so, why wouldn't he have put a SN on the 2" barrel also? That D742xxx reported to be stamped on the yoke is likewise very curious.

handejector · #31 09-22-2021, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

One more place to look for a SN - the back side of the extractor star.

That extractor is not the type that would be original to a long action gun. If it has a number, it won't be the original serial number of the gun.

handejector · #32 09-22-2021, 08:36 PM

Jaeger,

I keep forgetting to ask if you would look here again and post clear pics---

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-img_0423-jpg

There should be a number on the frame behind the yoke, and a number on the yoke.
Could we see them?

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-pic95-jpg

glowe · #33 09-22-2021, 08:37 PM

Just to stir the pot, the large logo on the sideplate was not done until 1937, so cannot be earlier than that and it would be way past 200,000 serial number.

Muley Gil · #34 09-22-2021, 09:52 PM

I'm putting my money on an extremely modified Victory model.

DWalt · #35 09-23-2021, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Just to stir the pot, the large logo on the sideplate was not done until 1937, so cannot be earlier than that and it would be way past 200,000 serial number.

I believe the pre-WWI K-frames had the large S&W logo stamped on the sideplate, S&W stopped stamping logos during WWI, small (dime size) logo stamp on frame began in 1920, continued until 1937 when large logo stamping on sideplate began again. Unsure that applied to all models. IF (big if) the 202xxx SN is correct, that would date it about 1913, when the large sideplate logo was being used. Of course the biggest problem is that it has the post-1921 MADE IN USA frame stamp. All those so-stamped until 1937 should have had the small logo stamp, but this one does not have it. But that does not negate a theory that the gun was made in 1937 or later, and if so, the SN should be no lower than in the mid-6xxxxx range. Something else to consider is why would the gunsmith (or whoever did the work) deliberately stamp 202xxx on the butt and cylinder if the true SN was something different? Why not just use the factory SN?

Jaeger2000 · #36 09-23-2021, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

Jaeger,

I keep forgetting to ask if you would look here again and post clear pics---

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-img_0423-jpg

There should be a number on the frame behind the yoke, and a number on the yoke.
Could we see them?

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-pic95-jpg

The number on the frame matches the number on the bottom of the grip. There is no visible number on the yoke.

DWalt · #37 09-23-2021, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaeger2000

The number on the frame matches the number on the bottom of the grip. There is no visible number on the yoke.

Where on the frame? Is there anything stamped on the back side of the extractor star?

Jim Watson · #38 09-23-2021, 12:36 AM

Maybe the "V" of a WWII contract gun was lost in the process of rounding the butt. Hence V 202XXX

DWalt · #39 09-23-2021, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Maybe the "V" of a WWII contract gun was lost in the process of rounding the butt. Hence V 202XXX

No V on the rear cylinder face SN.

StrawHat · #40 09-23-2021, 06:55 AM

Long distance forensic dissection of a revolver!

I come here to learn and everyday find something.

Kevin

JP@AK · #41 09-23-2021, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

I believe the pre-WWI K-frames had the large S&W logo stamped on the sideplate

They did. Here is a picture of two of them. The top unit, a .32-20 HE Target, shipped in March, 1904; the bottom unit, a .38 M&P Target, shipped in April, 1908.

steelslaver · #42 09-23-2021, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaeger2000

Sounds plausible. It was a steal, so I don't mind it having no value as a collectible. All I do care about is that it is safe to shoot.

Thank you very much guys.

I see nothing that would make me hesitate to shoot it if it passed some basic tests. When you slowly cock the hammer, does the bolt that locks the cylinder from turning pop in place before hammer locks completely back? How much forward to back movement does cylinder have, Less than say .003"

Although your gun has been modified every bit of it appears to be well done. I would shot it. Enjoy.

glowe · #43 09-23-2021, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

I believe the pre-WWI K-frames had the large S&W logo stamped on the sideplate, S&W stopped stamping logos during WWI, small (dime size) logo stamp on frame began in 1920, continued until 1937 when large logo stamping on sideplate began again . . .

The 1937 logo is different than the pre-WWI logo. Pictures below are both eras, showing the sideplate stamps. The 1937 and later stamp added a line: "REG. US PAT. OFF." First is a 1907 M&P and the second is a 1940 M&P Target.

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-p1010007-jpg

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-p1010007-jpg

Hi all, pls help me identify my first S&W-p101003a-jpg

A.Brown · #44 09-26-2021, 10:52 PM

Consider this possibility gentlefolk. Frame from one gun. Side plate from another. Barrel from another. Blank never issued cylinder and yoke. All put together by a talented smith in a country where handgun ownership is difficult at best. Non matching numbers would make it difficult if not impossible to trace. Huge mystery, yes. unexplainable, no.