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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 10-06-2021, 08:02 AM
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Default S&W - Royal Air Force Issue

Hello chaps,

I have a 6" barrel, S&W, R.A.F property marked (M&P?) revolver. Number on butt 699756, apparently the number 32120 is also present. Original bluing as far as I can tell, said to have been issued to an RAF pilot in WW2, he kept it after the war and it was in his possession until 2020/21 when it was discovered and deactivated to current EU spec to make it legal.

Wondering when it was manufactured and when it could have been issued within the RAF? Does this pre-date the Lend-Lease program? Is it a "Cash and Carry" era firearm?
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Old 10-06-2021, 08:55 AM
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Welcome to the forum. According to the s/n, and what is published in the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" it dates to 1941-42. It would be nice to see better pics of the property marks, and any other proofs or stamps, then the real experts here can tell you more,
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Old 10-06-2021, 08:57 AM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What caliber is stamped on the barrel? I believe your example pre-dates Lend-Lease which didn't start until 1941. I also think if it doesn't have a US Government Property stamp on the topstrap, it pre-dates Lend-Lease. An expert will be along shortly to straighten this out.
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Old 10-06-2021, 09:26 AM
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I see the s/n date ranges overlap in the book. Interesting:


1915-1942, s/n 241704 - 700000
1940-1945, s/n 700000 - 1000000
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Old 10-06-2021, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
I see the s/n date ranges overlap in the book. Interesting:

1915-1942, s/n 241704 - 700000
1940-1945, s/n 700000 - 1000000
Those two serial ranges from the SCSW are a bit imprecise; neither is quite correct.

We have enough data to place 699756 into 1940. This makes it a relatively early British Service model (production of those started after 670000 somewhere). Before Lend-Lease, these were acquired by way of the British Purchasing Commission in New York.

RAF markings did occur, but their authenticity is usually hard to ascertain. However, yours is supported by your knowledge of the gun’s back story.

As far as the gun‘s use in British service is concerned, the S&W revolvers reportedly ended up at Weedon Ordnance Depot, whence they were distributed as needed. So that information is entirely out of our reach.

Last edited by Absalom; 10-06-2021 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 10-06-2021, 10:49 AM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What caliber is stamped on the barrel?
I think the Brits use "calibre".
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Old 10-06-2021, 10:52 AM
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:27 AM
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:33 AM
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Your pic is reversed. That is the right side of the gun, but it appears as the left.
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:55 AM
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Default RAF S&W

Thank you for the response, much apprieciated! Is there a way to track down a day, week or month of production within 1940? Or to trace it's movements, such it's sale to Britain?

How did this purchasing work and who transported bulk firearm purchases across the atlantic to Britain during 1940? Do we know if ammunition was purchased, or whether British made ammunition was used?

Was it intended to use the British made "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII." round introduced in 1937? Replacing the British version of the S&W .38 round, namely the "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI .38-200."?
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Old 10-06-2021, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Is there a way to track down a day, week or month of production within 1940? Or to trace it's movements, such it's sale to Britain?

Well, when the moratorium on "Factory Letters" is lifted in January, you can request one on that gun from the S&W Historical Foundation for $100. It will tell you how it was configured, to whom it shipped and the date it shipped. There is no way I know of after that to trace its movements. Perhaps someone else more familiar with the shipping process can elaborate on how the transaction process worked.


Your barrel is stamped .38 S&W CTG. That is the US cartridge. It is essentially the same as .38 Webley (.38/200) except for bullet weight and jacketing. Any of those cartridges will work in that handgun. The US made millions of them for the Commonwealth and I'm sure your cartridge manufacturers were churning them out as well.
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Old 10-06-2021, 12:21 PM
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Doing a quick search, I found a thread that shows similar RAF marks (in post #5). That particular gun is serial # 700701, and also 6" barrel. The pilot's history is also in that thread:

.38S&W WWII RAF issue revolver
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Old 10-06-2021, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant_Pilot View Post
How did this purchasing work and who transported bulk firearm purchases across the atlantic to Britain during 1940?
The BPC placed bulk orders with S&W, who put batches in boxes and shipped them to the BPC’s warehouses at the Port of New York. Then the guns survived running the U-boat gauntlet in the belly of a freighter. They were accepted at RSAF Enfield and then stored at Weedon until distribution.

Maybe Peter or Alan have more detail on this or can correct me.

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Originally Posted by Sergeant_Pilot View Post
Was it intended to use the British made "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII." round introduced in 1937? Replacing the British version of the S&W .38 round, namely the "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI .38-200."?
That’s not really a “replacement”, just a different bullet. The British .380 cartridge came off a .38 Webley round for which Webley had been building pocket revolvers since at least the 1890s; that .38 round was probably copied from the .38 S&W back in the mists of blackpowder time, because they are dimensionally identical, and the S&W existed first.

The Mk I had a 200gr conical lead bullet, prone to incidental deformation in the pouch. To avoid a possible Hague convention issue regarding “expanding bullets”, the Mk IIz got a 178gr jacketed bullet. Necessity of war led to both being issued during the war. Either worked; accuracy issues didn’t affect what was needed for military handgun use.

This was an issue only faced by nations still issuing revolvers; the autopistol nations used jacketed ammo anyways. The US used a jacketed bullet for the standard .38 Sp Victory round for the same reason.
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Old 10-06-2021, 12:55 PM
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The existence of another stamped one in the thread linked by PeteC above, and actually two more mentioned by Ed within that thread (#17), all in the same serial vicinity, puts the authenticity of the gun and RAF stamping on really solid footing even apart from the back story.
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Old 10-06-2021, 12:59 PM
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This passage caught my eye.

"Very interesting history. This gun, ser. # 700701, and may have been in a group of revolvers with 6 inch barrels, that included ser. # 701178, (also marked RAF in same fashion as 700701) that were ready to ship in Jan. 1940, but for reasons unknown now, did not ship until Sept. 1941. Ser. # 704824 is also stamped RAF ( and with the Flight Officer's name on the grips) and was shipped in Jan. 1940. Ed."

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?
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Old 10-06-2021, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant_Pilot View Post
This passage caught my eye.

"Very interesting history. This gun, ser. # 700701, and may have been in a group of revolvers with 6 inch barrels, that included ser. # 701178, (also marked RAF in same fashion as 700701) that were ready to ship in Jan. 1940, but for reasons unknown now, did not ship until Sept. 1941. Ser. # 704824 is also stamped RAF ( and with the Flight Officer's name on the grips) and was shipped in Jan. 1940. Ed."

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?
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Old 10-06-2021, 03:29 PM
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... so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?
Welcome aboard from the hills of ol' Wyo.

Oh, don't get snared in that "logic" trap.

S&W doesn't work that way.

I've reviewed several 100-gun S&W orders. Few, if any, of the revolvers contained in those orders were consecutive.

Not only did S&W not assemble revolvers in serial number order, it doesn't ship in serial number order, either.

Neat revolver you have!
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Old 10-06-2021, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
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….

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?
That is indeed a logical conclusion.

The forum member who wrote that post is a respected long-term collector and expert on the S&W revolvers in that time period. The context with your gun and serial appears strong. Until you can get a definite ship date with a history letter, that is the best info you’re likely to find.

PS: Bob above is generally correct if the serial were all you had.

But barrel length and RAF stamp and the existence of batch shipments strengthen possible links significantly.

Last edited by Absalom; 10-06-2021 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 10-06-2021, 04:48 PM
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You can also see the blob where they tack-welded the sideplate on.
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:08 PM
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A random thought:

Roy has the records of numbers shipped to New York by S&W. If Enfield/Weedon receipt records are accessible to researchers, it would be interesting to try to figure out just how many of the British Service M&P’s sent off by the BPC, unissued and still in their kraft boxes, ended up in Davy Jones’ locker
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:14 PM
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Interesting topic. Coincidentally, I have got a day off work today and was going to do some collation of notes on these pistols.
Below,is a small list of serial numbers of similar pistols most of which are from this forum.

700451 - noted from Weller & Dufty UK auction catalogue from late 1970's
699824
700701
701178
704824
699756

All these pistols have a few things in common.
First, the crude RAF and broad arrow, which is struck on the right hand side of the frame. Traditionally, British ordnance markings are invariably placed on the L/H side of the frame.
Second,more importantly none of these revolvers as far as the photos show have the normal BPC Enfield inspection marks and broad arrow on the L/H side of the frame near the hammer. However, known BPC guns without RAF markings that do not have Enfield markings but letter to the BPC have been observed, so there are exceptions.
Third, all of these examples have 6"barrels.
Finally, these pistols are in a narrow band of serial numbers of 4,000 or so.
As Absalom says although the RAF marking would be easy to fake all these guns are genuinely marked.

As far as the date of these serial numbers and 6"barrels are concerned we can rule out the 1000 guns with 6" barrels that were part of the 'off the shelf purchase' of 2,150 pistols from S&W on 12th June 1940.(See Jinks Page 139). These serial numbers ran from about 670XXX to about 682XXX. For completeness other 6"barrel guns in this shipment of 2,150 were 150 Target guns and 145 nickel guns - clearly not applicable here.

So the next most likely batch of guns these pistols were part of would be the 20,000 BPC order of 20th June 1940, which had 6" barrels. With relation to 700701 which was ready to ship in January 1940 the serial number seems to high for that to be the case. If it was in fact shipped in September 1941 this seems very late not only for the serial number, nobody was ordering 6" barreled guns by then, everything was 5" barrels. The final shipments to the BPC being in December 1941.

What we really need is to see a S&W letters on one of these puppies. Perhaps there is one hidden in amongst the Victory Data Base thread.

Failing that, pageing ordnanceguy - paging ordnanceguy - please report to your keyboard...

Regards

AlanD

Last edited by AlanDavid; 10-08-2021 at 05:01 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-07-2021, 06:02 PM
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The S.S. Silvercedar was carrying '1000 S&W .38 Revolvers in 10 c/s' when she was torpedoed and sunk on 17th October 1941 by U-553 in the North Atlantic en route from New York and Sydney, C.B. for Liverpool in convoy SC-48.
I noted several (many) similar entries in the loss records when I was doing research for the Thompson book, but as I wasn't focussed on revolvers at the time I only noted some in passing. It would be possible to arrive at a figure for losses on the British Purchasing Commission's account. But the volume of manifests during the worst period of losses is formidable.
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Old 10-07-2021, 09:59 PM
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What we really need is to see a S&W letters on one of these puppies. Perhaps there is one hidden in amongst the Victory Data Base thread.

Failing that, paging ordnanceguy - paging ordnanceguy - please report to your keyboard...
Reporting in, sir.

The Victory Model Database shows 9 R.A.F. marked examples in this same relatively tight range, including those posted by Alan above. All are in the same configuration. None of them are recorded as having a factory letter.

However, it is my expectation that all of these R.A.F. marked revolvers would letter as having shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. S&W factory records would have no further information as to downstream users such as the R.A.F. A typical factory letter for one of the 6 inch, blued, .38 S&W revolvers shipped to the B.P.C. is shown below.



The original poster above asked about the proper ammunition issued during WW2 for these and like revolvers. It would have been the .380 Mark IIz packed in 12 round paper cartons as shown in the image below.



I hope that additional information is helpful.

Regards,
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Old 10-08-2021, 05:05 AM
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The S.S. Silvercedar was carrying '1000 S&W .38 Revolvers in 10 c/s' when she was torpedoed and sunk on 17th October 1941 by U-553 in the North Atlantic en route from New York and Sydney, C.B. for Liverpool in convoy SC-48.
I noted several (many) similar entries in the loss records when I was doing research for the Thompson book, but as I wasn't focussed on revolvers at the time I only noted some in passing. It would be possible to arrive at a figure for losses on the British Purchasing Commission's account. But the volume of manifests during the worst period of losses is formidable.
That's interesting. I wonder if a laborious trudge through the manifests would give a true figure of losses similar to that which you found in your extensive reach for the Thompson SMG book. If I remember this was a tad under 5% of TSMG shipped to the UK , lost at sea?

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Old 10-08-2021, 05:15 AM
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Reporting in, sir.

The Victory Model Database shows 9 R.A.F. marked examples in this same relatively tight range, including those posted by Alan above. All are in the same configuration. None of them are recorded as having a factory letter.

However, it is my expectation that all of these R.A.F. marked revolvers would letter as having shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. S&W factory records would have no further information as to downstream users such as the R.A.F. A typical factory letter for one of the 6 inch, blued, .38 S&W revolvers shipped to the B.P.C. is shown below.



The original poster above asked about the proper ammunition issued during WW2 for these and like revolvers. It would have been the .380 Mark IIz packed in 12 round paper cartons as shown in the image below.



I hope that additional information is helpful.

Regards,
Charlie
Thanks Charlie, that letter shows a serial number not too far of the group of six above, so we have some idea of the ship date. Over the next two weeks I will post the highest and lowest serial number in the group above on the Ask Roy for a Ship Date section and see what dates we get. Charlie if the other 3 RAF guns on your data base not in the group of six above have a serial number higher or lower than those above perhaps you could let me know, and I can use that serial number/s when I post to get a better idea of the time/spread between shipping dates?

Regards

Alan
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Old 10-08-2021, 09:16 AM
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Default RAF S&W

Excellent thread chaps! I'm really looking forward to finding out more.

Did S&W supply cleaning rods with these exported revolvers? I'm not sure which cleaning rod would be correct to display with the RAF 25 Pattern holster?

Apparently, these rods were supplied for the Victory model and are too long for the 37 Pattern holster's internal cleaning rod pocket. The appear in typical British packaging, so they must have been re-packaged for longer term storage during the 1940's? (I don't think they're British made?)
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Old 10-08-2021, 01:35 PM
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Sergeant_Pilot: What action was necessary to make this revolver legal per current EU spec. Seems a shame and quite ugly to do this to a historical piece.
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Old 10-08-2021, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Llance View Post
Sergeant_Pilot: What action was necessary to make this revolver legal per current EU spec. Seems a shame and quite ugly to do this to a historical piece.
It'll make the Americans cry but here's the basic low-down as I understand it.

*Barrel cut open, all the way through to the chamber with a hardened steel rod welded in.
*Cylinder walls cut open and cylinders blocked.
*Mechanism between trigger and hammer destroyed.
*Firing pin and hole ground away.
*All major components welded/pinned together to prevent disassembly.
*Major components marked with the deactivation proof house stamp.

Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.
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Old 10-08-2021, 03:04 PM
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Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.
They are all disgusting......Ben
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Old 10-08-2021, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
Charlie if the other 3 RAF guns on your data base not in the group of six above have a serial number higher or lower than those above perhaps you could let me know, and I can use that serial number/s when I post to get a better idea of the time/spread between shipping dates? Regards, Alan
Hi Alan:

Of the R.A.F. marked guns in the Database the low number is 699113 and the high number is 704824. It is a pretty narrow range.

Charlie
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  #31  
Old 10-09-2021, 03:15 AM
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Thanks Charlie. I will post these one at a time a week apart in the members area. I will post the results here.

In the meantime if anyone else has another example of these "Raf" 6" barrel guns, please post the details on this thread, thanks.

Regards

Alan
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  #32  
Old 10-09-2021, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
In the meantime if anyone else has another example of these "Raf" 6" barrel guns, please post the details on this thread, thanks.RegardsAlan
Here is mine, s/n 697923. Being ex-RAF I had to have it!
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  #33  
Old 10-09-2021, 08:00 PM
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Thank Peter. That's a nice example, unsullied by post war commercial British proofs. Its the lowest serial number seen so far, so will be used for the request with Roy for a ship date.

Alan
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk VII View Post
You can also see the blob where they tack-welded the sideplate on.

I noticed that blemish too, but thought it looked like a drill-and-pin operation to prevent the sideplate screw from being backed out.

Not that the actual process matters. Either is just a horrible way to treat a piece of history.
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  #35  
Old 10-18-2021, 12:01 AM
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Just heard back from Roy. Peters gun, 697923 was shipped in September 1940, so will be one of the 20,000 6" barrel BPC guns from the order of 20th June. 1940. So no real surprises there.
I am awaiting confirmation of barrel length and markings of two more pistols with the RAF marking and broad arrow markings from the Imperial War museum, in London. will post when received.

Regards

Alan
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  #36  
Old 10-18-2021, 08:18 AM
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Hi from North Dakota
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
Just heard back from Roy. Peters gun, 697923 was shipped in September 1940, so will be one of the 20,000 6" barrel BPC guns from the order of 20th June. 1940. So no real surprises there.
I am awaiting confirmation of barrel length and markings of two more pistols with the RAF marking and broad arrow markings from the Imperial War museum, in London. will post when received.

Regards

Alan
Hello Alan,

Does the above give any indication for 699756?

Also, do we know when the first of this model arrived in England? I'm a re-enactor would like to know the earliest date the revolver would be appropriate for, even if my serial number is later it can masquerade as an earlier example, I just need to know when the first ones appeared over here?
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
Just heard back from Roy. Peters gun, 697923 was shipped in September 1940, so will be one of the 20,000 6" barrel BPC guns from the order of 20th June. 1940. So no real surprises there.Alan
Thanks for the info Alan

Peter
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  #39  
Old 10-23-2021, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Sergeant_Pilot View Post
Hello Alan,

Does the above give any indication for 699756?

Also, do we know when the first of this model arrived in England? I'm a re-enactor would like to know the earliest date the revolver would be appropriate for, even if my serial number is later it can masquerade as an earlier example, I just need to know when the first ones appeared over here?
The earliest orders from the BPC to S&W date to June 1940, guns that shipped in say mid to late June would have been in the UK about 2 or 3 weeks later depending on which ship they went on allowing travel time from S&W in Springfield, to customs in NYC and then the dock. I don't think any guns left much before the 10th of June and probably 17th June 1940. Guns were not shipped sequentially, so 699756 may have shipped before 697923, the only way to know would be to get a Smith & Wesson letter, this being on hold until early 2022.

Regards

AlanD
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Old 11-08-2021, 03:30 AM
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Two more from the Imperial War Museum. The curator has confirmed both six inch barrels. Note the different armourer applied markings.

698888 - Does not have the broad arrow.
698870

Checking my notes I see that all of these 6 inch barrel guns were shipped directly to R.A.F. Depot, Aboukir, Egypt. The guns were part of the 20,000 BPC order A-429, but the request to the S&W factory to send them to the docks in NYC no later than 30th August was from the British Ministry of Shipping. The number of guns to be shipped was 2,500.

So this explains the lack of British Enfield inspection marks on these examples.

Regards

AlanD
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Old 11-08-2021, 09:25 AM
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Thanks to all who research, assemble and share this fascinating knowledge of those early, dangerous days of WWII.

A fascinating subset of this information regarding soon to be weapons of war is the post facto destruction of their utility - out of some aim of achieving peace through neutralization of their essence.
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  #42  
Old 11-11-2021, 06:49 PM
Sergeant_Pilot Sergeant_Pilot is offline
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Hello Alan,

Apologies for the delay in response. I've had a look over my example (699756) and cannot find a broad arrow marking. Did mine fall into the Egyptian shippment?

I've been slowly working on my set, acquiring a box of Royal Arsenal made .38 rounds, dated 1941. Plus 24 .38 rounds dated 1940, also Royal Arsenal manufacture. I've also acquired a nice 1941 dated 1925 Pattern holster. I will be restoring and packing the rounds into reproduction cartons and acquiring the correct ammo pouch, belt and lanyard. I'll post some photos once complete.
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  #43  
Old 11-14-2021, 02:07 AM
AlanDavid AlanDavid is offline
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Sergeant Pilot

Given the serial number, 6" barrel and R.A.F. hand stamped markings, yours is almost certainly one of the of the 2,500 that went to Egypt.
look forward to the photos when you completes your set of accessories and accoutrements.

Regards
Alan
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  #44  
Old 11-14-2021, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant_Pilot View Post
I've also acquired a nice 1941 dated 1925 Pattern holster.
Experimenting with my RAF 6" S&W M&P and several Army Pattern '37 and RAF Pattern '25 holsters revealed that the former will not close on the 6" gun. However, the seam behind the trigger guard area on th P'25 is open farther down than that of the P'37. This allows the M&P to tilt back and in turn allows the flap to close.

Perhaps someone knew what he was doing when the 6"s were issued to the RAF?

Peter
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  #45  
Old 11-14-2021, 11:52 AM
Sergeant_Pilot Sergeant_Pilot is offline
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Hello Peter, here's 699756 in an RAF 37 Pattern, made by MW&S Ltd in 1943. This is a photo supplied by the previous owner. I have a both the RAF 37 and 25 Patterns in my collection, both 1941 dated. I will try both when able.

Hello Alan, did the remaining 17,500 guns of A-429 ship to England?

It's a shame that I'm refused contact the family of the original owner, apparently they don't wish anything to do with their relatives pistol. All the information I have is that he is thought to have flown Wellingtons, first operationally and then as an instructor. Wellingtons were operating in the western desert, this could be where he picked up the pistol 1940/1941?
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  #46  
Old 11-21-2021, 01:15 AM
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"Hello Alan, did the remaining 17,500 guns of A-429 ship to England?"

Not necessarily, I have a note of another 400 6".38/200 revolvers going to the R.C.A.F in Canada. There may be other orders that I missed or are missing from the file.

Regards

Alan
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  #47  
Old 11-25-2021, 02:05 PM
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Thank you Alan, I can begin working on my set soon. Here's a 1941 dated 25 Pattern holster, a 1941 dated 37 Pattern, a 1940 build revolver and a carton of twelve 1941 dated rounds by Royal Arsenal.
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Old 11-27-2021, 09:06 PM
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For those interested in British holster, both web and leather and all things relating to web accoutrements, I highly recommend Karkee web

Karkee Web

Regards

AlanD
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  #49  
Old 11-28-2021, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant_Pilot View Post
It'll make the Americans cry but here's the basic low-down as I understand it.

*Barrel cut open, all the way through to the chamber with a hardened steel rod welded in.
*Cylinder walls cut open and cylinders blocked.
*Mechanism between trigger and hammer destroyed.
*Firing pin and hole ground away.
*All major components welded/pinned together to prevent disassembly.
*Major components marked with the deactivation proof house stamp.

Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.
Better to process such a fine piece of machining through a grinder or toss it into a live volcano than to abuse it so.
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