Victory Model 38/200

Bohonkie · #1 11-24-2021, 05:07 PM

Hi all. I've researched this extensively here and in my three S&W books: Std Catalogue; S&W 1857-1945; and History of by Jinks). I thought I hit pay dirt here when I saw several references to the"S&W Victory Database." But... I can't seem to find such a database, so here goes:

I have two Victory models, one in .38 Special (1905 H.E. 4th change, converted from 38 Smith & Wesson, which it still says on the barrel, by Parker/Hale) and one in 38/200 for which I have questions. The biggest thing that foxes me is the serial number listed on the bottom of the grip frame along with the lanyard, and in the flat area under the rear of the barrel. The serial number is: 748248. Under the barrel the digit "7" is almost obliterated by what looks like the number or pound symbol (#). The serial number is followed by what apprears to be the letter B stamped over the letter P. On the grip frame the serial number has the V on one side of the lanyard and the serial number on the other side but the V and the 7 are each almost obliterated by the same symbol (#). The rear of the cylinder has a P and a V and 748248; all appearing crisp and clear. Also entered 6 times on the rear of the cylinder between each chamber is a crown and what appears to be the letter "P" below it. There is also the letter P stamped on the upper right hand corner of the frame (port side) with no crown.
I'm not sure of the factory ship date for this revolver but I think it would be 1944/45. I don't see the opposing arrows anywhere on this revolver. Finish is grey with smooth walnut stocks.
So... Is this a fake Victory model? Does anyone have any information on what you think this could be?
Very Respectfully - MJ

Wiregrassguy · #2 11-24-2021, 06:37 PM

MJ, post some pictures. It sounds like the serial is V748248 which would make it in 1945. As far as the Victory Database, you might want to contact ordnanceguy.

DWalt · #3 11-24-2021, 06:50 PM

Yes, probably an early 1945 shipment. The closest to yours on my list is V745416 which shipped in 1/45.

Absalom · #4 11-24-2021, 07:06 PM

The P without anything is a standard military proof that was applied at the factory.

The other markings are likely post-war British or other Allied, but impossible to determine with certainty without a few well-focused close-up photos.

Bohonkie · #5 11-29-2021, 01:32 PM

Sorry for the late reply. I work for a major outdoor chain (hunting/guns) and have been delayed by black Friday work. Not too good at posting things but I'll try. I used a small portable camera and my degree in photography screams for a better job, but here they are. Eight in total; might have to break them up if too many for one post. Thanks, MJ.
First is overall view, port side. Second is starboard side of barrel. You can see where some markings have been filed away. Third is starboard side of frame where lower right shows a crown and what appears to be the letter "P". Next is inside the crane showing grinding to remove markings.
Final four are coming in subsequent post. /Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/Port.JPG/Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/BblStrbd.JPG/Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/FrameStrbd.JPG/Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/Crane.JPG

Bohonkie · #6 11-29-2021, 01:38 PM

Here are the final 4 photos.First is rear of cylinder showing ser nr with V and the letter "P". Second is serial number at bottom of grip frame; yhou can see how the "V" and the first number of the serial have been scored over. Next is the underside of the Bbl showing markings deformation and a strike-over. Final is outside the cylinder showing marking over strong point of each chamber.
Thanks for looking - I hope someone can answer my previous questions! mj /Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/CylRear.JPG
/Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/Frame.JPG
/Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/BblUnder.JPG
/Users/michaelsjackson/Desktop/CylOutter.JPG

Absalom · #7 11-29-2021, 01:59 PM

I can’t see any pictures. Just incomplete code.

Try following this:

"Go Advanced" below the "Quick Reply" window.
Scroll below the text window and "Manage Attachments".
Follow prompts to attach up to 5 photos from your device's photo library.
You need to attach each picture individually. If you select a second one before uploading the first, the second will wipe out the first.

Wiregrassguy · #8 11-29-2021, 02:28 PM

Michael, there are video tutorials on how to upload pictures to an initial post and to existing posts in the Forum Office sub-forum. It appears you are trying to link to the pictures on your desktop. You cannot do that. The pictures must be uploaded as attachments, as Absalom states above, or they must be uploaded to an album here or to a picture hosting site like Photobucket from where they can be linked. If you upload them here, either as an attachment or to an album, the pictures must be no larger than 1920x1080 pixels so the forum software can resize them for display. PM me if you need assistance.

Bohonkie · #9 11-30-2021, 07:40 PM

Hopefully this will work - Thanks for the information!
mj

Bohonkie · #10 11-30-2021, 07:41 PM

The final three. Thanks again - mj

Bohonkie · #11 11-30-2021, 07:43 PM

Oops. One more. This one of the rear of the cylinder. mj

Wiregrassguy · #12 11-30-2021, 08:02 PM

Looks like someone defaced the "V" and the 7 start of the serial number. Interesting!

Shark Bait · #13 11-30-2021, 08:17 PM

Wow, I can't think of a reasonable explanation for that.

Absalom · #14 11-30-2021, 08:49 PM

Just an opinion, but I believe we are looking at two different sets of post-factory/war stampings here.

Some of the small crown-over-something stamps, as well as the partly buffed-out mess on the right side of the barrel, appear to be part of London proofhouse post-war commercial proofing. On the barrel, I believe I see what could be the elbow part of the London arm-with-scimitar logo, and I read a partial 38 and a 767 in there, which would be the caliber/case length stamp.

The hash marks around the serial on butt and underbarrel are not related to that, although they could have been inflicted by the same people who defaced the proofs (pure speculation). Maybe some other exotic corner of the world after surplus?

Targets Guy · #15 12-01-2021, 12:28 AM

Someone didn't like "V"s and "7"s.

Truckman · #16 12-01-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Looks like someone defaced the "V" and the 7 start of the serial number. Interesting!

Could have been someone slapping his forehead thinking he could have had a V8...

...Ben

cmansguns · #17 12-01-2021, 10:39 AM

I agree with Absalom in that there appear some remnants of British Commercial proofs along with disfiguring grinding, hash mark stamps which would not be any FTF (Factory Through Repair) by England, India or Australia.

One thing I think can be determined is that it is not an early war lend lease which would have had US Property on the top strap, flaming bomb, P and WB or other US inspectors initials on butt.

On the other hand if it was 1944/1945 shouldn't it have the S for the safety hammer block?

Below pics are my son's friends Lend Lease, Victory, 38-200 all original including matching number grips. The British Commercial proofs indicate letter "F" which would mean 1955 release for commercial sales. There are no importer marks anywhere on the gun, which I think was common before 1968 GCA. The British barrel proofs shown are what looks like mostly ground off on yours.

Looks like you have an enigma of a 38-200, probably a post war commercial proof in London, release for sale, bought by bubba who had access to files and grinders. You may wish to disassemble and put a keen eye on the internals to see what else may have been "modified" before attempting to shoot it.

Bohonkie · #18 12-01-2021, 01:10 PM

Thanks, all, for the information. This revolver does not have a safety hammer block. It also shoots fairly well. I've had this revolver for several years and have fired a couple hundred rounds through it but have always been curious as to why it is marked up this way. I also had no clue as to what "767" meant. I'll have to look up the scimitar logo to see what it looks like and what it means.
My other "Victory model" left the factory in 1940 and every marking makes sense except the right side of the barrel reflects "38 S&W Special." I guess they modified these after the war - wouldn't it take a new cylinder to do so?
One last thing I have been curious about is the british marking of tonnage for proofing. My 38 Special Victory is marked 4 tons per (and a square symbol which I assume means 4 tons per square inch). I'm not sure what the metric conversion is, or if this is our tons (2,000 pounds) but I would think proofing for 38 Special would be tougher than that (higher tonnage). ?? By the way, this revolver is very accurate. I can post photos if anyone is interested.
Thanks - mj