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12-05-2021, 01:59 AM
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Refurbished or fakes
I’m always skeptical when I see a mint like-new pre-model 29, and others for that matter.
1. If the bluing looks like bituminous coal rather than anthracite coal or the sighting rail has the same luster just like the rest of the gun, my eyebrow goes up. (Northeastern Pennsylvanians can tell the difference just by looking at the coal. Anthracite is nearly iridescent. Bituminous is shiny with less sheen and seems thick. Shale is flat black like the sights and sighting rail.) Has it been re-blued to appear in mint condition? Some “patina” authenticates a commonly sold gun, not the oxidation type of patina but normal wear on the high points and the sides of the muzzle.
2. Another flag is engraving. Unless it came from the factory, I’m suspicious, especially when there’s no SWHF letter or other documentation of provenance. Does engraving a common gun increase its value? I would think not. I saw one offered for 12K without provenance.
3. Re-stamping is concerning for me. Coins sometimes are stamped twice making the mint mark or dates look double or shadowy. They are very rare, demand a lot of money and are faked. I saw a 5-screw with the s/n in the shroud where 2 of the digits were double stamped to change the numbers as if S&W made a mistake, But, the shroud s/n matched the cylinder’s s/n. It was in mint condition with a letter from SWHF and invoice. I could not verify the s/n on the star or frame. Of course, the bluing was odd, thick not iridescent. Could it have been a fake or was double stamping common during production?
What are your thoughts?
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12-05-2021, 04:39 AM
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My only thought is you're a whole bunch more skeptical than I am, and I'm not aware of ever being bamboozled.
Some enlightening comments from Turnbull on bluing: "Bluing is a living thing. It reacts to its environment." I chose to interpret that to mean two different guns, starting out identical when brand spanking new, are going to appear different, one from the other, after time in different environments--and with no use involved. Turnbull folks confirmed my interpretation. So----------------????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would think the value of engraving depends on the engraver--------the quality of the work---never mind if they were employees of S&W or not. As an aside, I have owned some factory work which bordered on atrocious.
I've never seen double stamping, so I'm inclined to think it was not common during production.
Ralph Tremaine
Last edited by rct269; 12-05-2021 at 04:42 AM.
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12-05-2021, 09:00 AM
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Welcome to the S&W Forums. Sadly, there are some unscrupulous people in the firearms collector universe. The majority, I think, are very honest, but there are some who seek to deceive and enrich themselves through deception. Buyer beware.
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12-05-2021, 09:03 AM
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Something that never seems to be considered is that we are but a very very small percentage of S&W owners let alone gun owners in general. Not everybody holds their revolvers to the standards that we do on this forum. Ever notice that even the guys at the gun club get that glazed look when you start pointing out the minute details that make your latest purchase the score of the century. And then they say something like "you should try some VZ grips on that". As I have fine tuned my collection over the years buying and selling, the guns that sold the quickest were the least collectable, i.e. a chrome plated 1905. I spend my money to make myself happy. And I'm happy when I wrap my digits around the Coke bottle stocks of my shooter grade .44 Magnum that I paid too much for and send 50 or 100 rounds downrange. With the cost of things these days like gasoline or a good steak dinner what's a couple hundred dollars when you are buying a gun that will provide years of enjoyment every time you shoot it or take it out and polish it. Either way you can't put a price on that.
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12-05-2021, 10:54 AM
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Series Guy...I feel your pain.
"You will no doubt notice this Airweight has the early BUG screw, and yet it is still stamped as a 42 no dash."
And the room falls silent while everyone looks at you like you have a horn coming out of your head.
No. We are not nerds....these are important things to us...and few others.
Sent from my SM-A025V using Tapatalk
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12-05-2021, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by series guy
With the cost of things these days like gasoline or a good steak dinner what's a couple hundred dollars when you are buying a gun that will provide years of enjoyment every time you shoot it or take it out and polish it. Either way you can't put a price on that.
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It took be a couple years but feel the same way.
I have a few guns and some sets of grips that really spoke to me that I paid more than I probably should of at that time. They are very treasured and I have no regrets.
Most have gone up in value and I feel confident that now I would not take a loss.
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12-05-2021, 05:41 PM
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Faking
One of the reasons I enjoy collecting S&Ws very few are so valuable they attract fakers. Now if you look at Colt SAAs from the 1800s be very aware of possible fakes. Colt 1911s also attract fakers. I'm not saying you shouldn't be careful when buying S&Ws but the only common deceptions are failures to disclose fully any flaws. Engraving is a whole other kettle of fish trying to decide what it's worth.
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12-05-2021, 06:56 PM
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Exactly!
The seller tried to tell me this early 44 magnum was a target model!
When I called him on it, he dropped the price by $400!
Sure showed him!
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12-05-2021, 07:38 PM
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Overstamping or double stamping is not un-common on S&W revolvers. I have a Model 25-5 that was built on a Model 25-2 frame. The last digit was merely over struck with a 5 to make it correct.
Another error is mismarked revolvers. The well known Model 25-2 with the barrel stamp, 45 CAL. MODEL 1950. The 1950 denotes a Model of revolver that was discontinued 15 years earlier. They still went out the door.
So, for me a double struck piece is no big deal.
Kevin
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12-05-2021, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269
I would think the value of engraving depends on the engraver--------the quality of the work---never mind if they were employees of S&W or not. As an aside, I have owned some factory work which bordered on atrocious.
I've never seen double stamping, so I'm inclined to think it was not common during production.
Ralph Tremaine
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Exactly, I'd like to see the engraver's name somewhere and who it was engraved for. Otherwise, the price the buyer's willing to pay is the value. For me.... I'm a purest.
Which brings me to my next question? Should I have mine re-blued?
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12-06-2021, 01:28 AM
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I guess I'm confused??? I have no idea what model you have, what its current condition is, and why you may want to re-blue it? More info and some pics would help us to give a better opinion.
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12-06-2021, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcorc
2. Another flag is engraving. Unless it came from the factory, I’m suspicious, especially when there’s no SWHF letter or other documentation of provenance. Does engraving a common gun increase its value? I would think not. I saw one offered for 12K without provenance.
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I have gotten to the point were I focus most of my collecting efforts on engraved S&Ws. The value of engraved S&Ws whether engraved at the factory or after market are primarily impacted by the following factors:
1. the quality of the engraving, including the coverage, inlays and other details (one of the most important factors for me personally)
2. the condition of the gun
3. the canvas (model) that the work was done to
4. the confirmed engraver including if the work was done by the factory. (NOTES: the factory was in the business of turning out engraved guns. Although there was some very fine work done at the factory, there was also a lot of factory engraved guns that were "quota guns" that were obviously turned out very quickly. There are also some very very fine guns that were done by talented artists who never worked at the S&W factory - e.g. Alvin White, Claus/Emil Willig, Arnold Griebel, Phil Quigley, Leonard Francolini to name a few of my favorites.
5. the provenance of the gun - who owned it and can the ownership of it be documented appropriately...
6. and most importantly - Does the gun as engraved "speak" to you?
Almost all aftermarket blued or nickel engraved carbon steel guns have been refinished (stainless guns require no finish...). The only exceptions are (i) those guns that were shipped from the factory to the engraver "in the white" and engraved in that condition (in that case, they were not refinished, but finished for the first time after the engraving was complete) and (ii) guns that the engraving was cut through the blue and the engraving was left in the white (creating a contrast with the blue of a gun).
I would not put engraved guns in your skeptical bucket, unless the gun was tampered with, like when a famous engraver's name is added to a gun by unscrupulous parties to juice the value, as happened recently to a finely engraved .357. I would also say that whenever you are contemplating paying $12K for a gun (whether engraved or not) you should make sure that you know what you are buying (i.e. consult with a trusted someone who knows more about the subject gun in question).
Welcome to the forum. I hope that you enjoy your time here.
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12-06-2021, 12:25 PM
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S&W for many years had a policy engravers were not allowed to sign their work. Some did on occasion, but many factory engraved guns do not have the engraver identified. A letter of authenticity will tell you if the firearm was engraved at the factory, but will not identify the engraver.
Bill
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