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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 01-14-2022, 01:39 PM
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Default Victor Victoria? the killer V's

After extensive reading, I'm still not clear on whether all BSR 38 S&W with V serial numbers and 38 Special V's are all informally considered "Victory" revolvers?


That pending, I just got in a 38 S&W 5" that is a sort of partner to the B.P.D. Police marked 38 Special I posted earlier.


They both came from the same collection that a GB seller is offering and this one caught my eye because it has no military markings, but has a V serial number.



I understand (finally) that "scrubbed" means US Property marked guns were sometimes relieved of their markings because some thought (falsely) they might still be US property.


So, this gun has no "P" stamp, no top strap US stamp or any flaming bomb etc anywhere.


What would this have been if it was unmarked or do you think it was "scrubbed"? See link for more pics.



I'll get a ship date when it's my turn again.


Thanks!






Victory2 - Google Photos
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Old 01-14-2022, 01:54 PM
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By whom? "Victory" wasn't official terminology for those revolvers.
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Old 01-14-2022, 02:05 PM
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By whom? "Victory" wasn't official terminology for those revolvers.



Well, the old SCSW says " So named for the "V" placed in the serial prefix for "Victory" against the axis powers in WWII"


I didn't make it up.
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Old 01-14-2022, 02:12 PM
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Refer to my #2 again. Victory was never official nomenclature, but was used informally a lot. To the British, it was a "Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, No. 2"
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Old 01-14-2022, 02:16 PM
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Refer to my #2 again. Victory was never official nomenclature, but was used informally a lot. To the British, it was a "Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, No. 2"

Fair enough, I will amend my post. Thanks
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Old 01-14-2022, 08:38 PM
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I doubt if it was scrubbed. It just did not get marked or was sent to a Civilian Agency.
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:02 PM
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I doubt if it was scrubbed. It just did not get marked or was sent to a Civilian Agency.

Thanks, I'm told these were not offered as civilian revolvers like the 38 specials, I guess a letter will tell the tale.
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:34 PM
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I doubt if it was scrubbed. It just did not get marked or was sent to a Civilian Agency.
It does look good, but the chance that it did not get marked anywhere is so minimal compared to the many that were scrubbed that it‘s safer to go with the latter assumption. No Victory BSR‘s were produced for or sent to any civilian agency.
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:43 PM
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Well, the old SCSW says " So named for the "V" placed in the serial prefix for "Victory" against the axis powers in WWII"

I didn't make it up.
You‘ll notice that the SCSW avoids mentioning WHEN it was so named.

Actually, there are some indications that S&W marketing did use the term in wartime advertising for the availability of the US version through the DSC; Charles Pate pictures an example in his book.

However, there is no evidence that either the factory itself or any of the end users ever called the revolvers by the Victory name. In S&W documents like invoices, it remained what it had always been, the .38 M&P.

The Victory term only gained traction after the war, in advertisements of the surplus trade and then among collectors.
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:55 PM
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In the Collecting of S&W. There is a saying to never say never regarding S&W production.
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Old 01-14-2022, 10:34 PM
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You‘ll notice that the SCSW avoids mentioning WHEN it was so named.

Actually, there are some indications that S&W marketing did use the term in wartime advertising for the availability of the US version through the DSC; Charles Pate pictures an example in his book.

However, there is no evidence that either the factory itself or any of the end users ever called the revolvers by the Victory name. In S&W documents like invoices, it remained what it had always been, the .38 M&P.

The Victory term only gained traction after the war, in advertisements of the surplus trade and then among collectors.

Thanks, was there ever any discussion as to why the V designation was decided upon in the first place or by whom?



I supposed it is better than the alternative runner up "AS" prefix.


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Old 01-14-2022, 10:40 PM
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It does look good, but the chance that it did not get marked anywhere is so minimal compared to the many that were scrubbed that it‘s safer to go with the latter assumption. No Victory BSR‘s were produced for or sent to any civilian agency.



Hopefully a letter will fulfill my wildest imagination or crush my propitious dreams.
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Old 01-15-2022, 12:10 AM
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The early contract BSRs may not have any military markings - e.g. my Australian contract 5" BSR from 5/1941 (lettered).
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Old 01-15-2022, 12:14 AM
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The early contract BSRs may not have any military markings - e.g. my Australian contract 5" BSR from 5/1941 (lettered).

Interesting, does it have the V serial number? Thanks
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Old 01-15-2022, 05:56 PM
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The V series revolvers (both USA and British) began at V1 (around 6/42) and production ended at VJ-day at about SV813xxx (although civilian shipments extended into early 1946. All could be considered as being "Victories" based upon the V prefix of the SN. Where did the "V" come from? I really don't know, but at the time, Churchill's famous "V for Victory" hand signal was very well known.
Winston Churchill's V for Victory sign had a very cheeky double meaning - Mirror Online
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Old 01-15-2022, 06:50 PM
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The V series revolvers (both USA and British) began at V1 (around 6/42) and production ended at VJ-day at about SV813xxx (although civilian shipments extended into early 1946. All could be considered as being "Victories" based upon the V prefix of the SN. Where did the "V" come from? I really don't know, but at the time, Churchill's famous "V for Victory" hand signal was very well known.
Winston Churchill's V for Victory sign had a very cheeky double meaning - Mirror Online



Thanks! Interesting war tidbits. I always considered these to be kind of dull and utilitarian, I suppose they would be by design, but they are growing on me as I find and handle more of them. Great history.
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Old 01-16-2022, 12:33 AM
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In "History of Smith & Wesson" Roy Jinks says "on April 24, 1942, S&W SNs on the .38 M&P series reached 1,000,000 and a new series was started with a V prefix. This model was nicknamed the Victory Model to signify the company's hope for a quick victory in WWII".
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Old 01-16-2022, 01:11 AM
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Default Variety

Quite a bit of variety in the BSR. 4", 5", 6". Bright blue, brushed blue, parkerized. No prefix, V prefix, VS prefix. Makes me want to collect a few. Probably some other variations I don't know about.
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Old 01-16-2022, 09:10 AM
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Old 01-17-2022, 02:59 AM
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Hi David

Quote:
Originally Posted by JADARE View Post
Quite a bit of variety in the BSR. 4", 5", 6". Bright blue, brushed blue, parkerized. No prefix, V prefix, VS prefix.
I share your interest, but let me point out a couple of facts.

First, there were no VS prefix guns, so far as I've been able to discover in more than 10 years of tracking these revolvers. The factory marking was SV, not VS. There is one VS gun known to exist, BUT the marking is such that it is almost certainly a mistake or possibly a late addition. The serial number is quite a bit higher than any otherwise known SV unit, and the V in front of the S is cockeyed and separated from the S. The last I heard, that revolver was owned by an SWCA member, a man who posts on this Forum. I've seen pictures of the butt.

Second, I have never located a BSR with the SV prefix. The only 5" M&Ps with the SV serial numbers that I've located were shipped to civilian purchasers after the war ended and were chambered for the .38 Special. Remember that the British stopped taking shipments of S&W revolvers quite a long time before the company stopped shipping .38 Special Victory Models to the Navy. The .38 Specials continued shipping right up to the day that Japan capitulated. The highest number to have shipped to the Navy left the factory for Norfolk on August 13, 1945, according to Dr. Jinks.
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Old 01-17-2022, 11:34 AM
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Hi, Jack
Apparently Roy and I are both dyslexic. Roy talks about SV and VS. Think I also got them mixed up.
In the "History of Smith & Wesson" Roy says "the factory changed the prefix from V to VS". Later in the paragraph he says "These revolvers can be identified by the stamped SV prefix". Then later in the paragraph he says "the last wartime serial number VS811,119".
Roy says the S was added to the prefix in about December, 1944.
Also says production on the BSR continued until March 29,1945. It would seem that there should be some with the S in the prefix.
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Last edited by JADARE; 01-17-2022 at 11:40 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 01-17-2022, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
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In the "History of Smith & Wesson" Roy says "the factory changed the prefix from V to VS". Later in the paragraph he says "These revolvers can be identified by the stamped SV prefix".
Yes, I'm aware of that. However, that book was written a long time back and more information has become available since then. VS prefixes just cannot be found, excepting the one I mentioned previously. The other thought is that the paragraph you referenced might simply have been given less editorial attention than it should have received. The last sentence you quoted is clearly more accurate than the earlier one, based on much information that has come to light. So the conflict between the two statements is reconciled by relying on the later sentence.

Quote:
Then later in the paragraph he says "the last wartime serial number VS811,119".
Well, that's not quite correct. What he is actually referring to is that SV811119 was the highest SV number before the first number with a simple S prefix. I have actually seen SV811119 and the prefix is SV, not VS. SV811119 actually shipped from the factory on March 1, 1946. It went to a distributor for sale on the civilian market, and is currently owned by a Forum member (at least it was the last time I saw it).

S811120 has only the S, no V. But, there are a lot of higher numbers with the SV prefix. The highest one I've found is SV813132 and it shipped on April 4, 1946.

Moreover, S811120 was assembled on September 12, 1945, according to the records. So, it cannot be a "wartime" gun, since the victory over Japan came in August.

Quote:
Roy says the S was added to the prefix in about December, 1944.
That is correct. Production of the Victory Model with the new sliding hammer block safety began in December, 1944, and those revolvers were given the SV prefix. But none of them actually shipped to the government until January, 1945. This information also came from Roy.

Quote:
Also says production on the BSR continued until March 29, 1945. It would seem that there should be some with the S in the prefix.
You would think so. But none of them have ever shown up that I am aware of. If someone finds one, I would be delighted to know about it.
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Old 01-17-2022, 05:00 PM
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Roy says the S was added to the prefix in about December, 1944.
Also says production on the BSR continued until March 29,1945. It would seem that there should be some with the S in the prefix.
The hammer block safety was primarily to satisfy a Navy concern.

I simply do not believe it applied to any remaining BSR production.

In fact, the factory seems to have happily shipped older stock of Victorys without the safety to civilian DSC customers almost until the end of production.

I have a DSC Victory, V 626880, from a shipment to police on June 6, 1945. Almost six months after the Navy started getting guns with the safety. There were 400 guns in that shipment, easily identified by a backstrap dept. stamping. I have tracked down about 8 or 9 of them, not a bad sample, and all were from before Jan. 1945 and had no safety.

I‘ve been meaning to ask Charlie Flick to check how many DSC Victorys with a SV, if any, are in the database, from January to August 1945.
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Old 01-17-2022, 06:25 PM
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All of the Victories had a hammer drop safety, as did earlier S&W K-frames. The late 1944 drop safety was a complete redesign of it made at the request of the Navy. This action was a result of a sailor being shot and killed by accidentally dropping a revolver on the deck. Therefore the Navy considered the early drop safety design to be inadequate. The Navy also had some revolvers already in service modified later by the addition of the new drop safety design. It is highly doubtful that any BSRs shipped incorporated the new and improved drop safety design as none having it are known.

Last edited by DWalt; 01-17-2022 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 01-17-2022, 08:50 PM
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It is highly doubtful that any BSRs shipped incorporated the new and improved drop safety design as none having it are known.
There is one historical curiosity, a group of 10,000 BSR‘s that was produced within the S-prefix and almost certainly had the new safety. Unfortunately, I didn‘t get around to asking our departed member Cyrano, who acquired one of the very few to make it back to the US, to check and confirm this:

Almost a Victory.
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Old Yesterday, 01:02 AM
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Interesting story I had not seen, but it indeed is technically not a WWII Victory BSR. I suppose that there may well have been numerous postwar M&Ps shipped out to various colonial outposts of the Empire and even to other countries for constabulary service.

Last edited by DWalt; Yesterday at 01:05 AM.
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