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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-02-2009, 09:09 PM
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EDITED 4/21/09 TO ADD DETAILS FROM FACTORY LETTER:

Shipped on 7/19/1956 to Basche-Sage Hardware Co., Baker, Oregon.

I bought this gun in San Diego, so in the course of its life it moved south about 800 miles. But it doesn't look like anybody shot it along the way.

DCW

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Today I took delivery of the .38/44 Outdoorsman Model of 1950 (Pre-Model 23) that I paid for a couple of weeks ago. The price was fairly high, so I was half expecting to feel some buyer's remorse once I had it in my hands. To my astonishment, I feel no remorse at all. It's more like buyer's satisfaction or even buyer's elation. This is a pretty nice gun, even if I say so myself. My happiness is strong enough to make up for the fact that the stocks are not numbered to the gun and the box (though appropriate) may not be the original box that this revolver came in. More on that below.

Details: S144228, shipped from the factory in July of 1956. (My thanks to Roy Jinks for this date.) Frame, cylinder and barrel are numbered alike. High polish finish; standard width (i.e., non-target) hammer and trigger. The adjustable sights are not upgraded -- rear has no white outline, front blade has no bead. The Diamond Magnas are numbered 122657, so if anyone out there has that N-frame -- I have your stocks. Ultimately I think I may put some coke bottle stocks on this gun. I know that will not reflect any original configuration, but the current stocks, though appropriate in style, already aren't right in terms of numbering. If you can't dress it authentically, you might as well dress it up.











Nice geometry in the overhead view.


Easy to read the serial...


Same number on the cylinder.


Recoil Shield shows little wear.


After the light turn ring, the worst damage on the gun is the scrape on the left ramp edge near the front sight.


Looks good ready for action.




And the box. That is this gun's serial number on the bottom of the box, but the number seems to be written in ball point or fiber tip ink rather than grease pencil -- an anachronism. I conclude the number was added to the box years after it was first sold. I can't even be sure this is this gun's original box, though some internal scuffing and staining indicate this gun and this box have been together for some time.


The gun came with no tools. It has no cards or other printed enclosures. There is a crumpled sheet of anti rust paper. That's it.

I am extremely pleased.

[Edited 3/3/09 to clarify language and add a couple of details.]

[Edited again 4/21/09 to add new info from factory letter.]

David Wilson
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:09 PM
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EDITED 4/21/09 TO ADD DETAILS FROM FACTORY LETTER:

Shipped on 7/19/1956 to Basche-Sage Hardware Co., Baker, Oregon.

I bought this gun in San Diego, so in the course of its life it moved south about 800 miles. But it doesn't look like anybody shot it along the way.

DCW

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Today I took delivery of the .38/44 Outdoorsman Model of 1950 (Pre-Model 23) that I paid for a couple of weeks ago. The price was fairly high, so I was half expecting to feel some buyer's remorse once I had it in my hands. To my astonishment, I feel no remorse at all. It's more like buyer's satisfaction or even buyer's elation. This is a pretty nice gun, even if I say so myself. My happiness is strong enough to make up for the fact that the stocks are not numbered to the gun and the box (though appropriate) may not be the original box that this revolver came in. More on that below.

Details: S144228, shipped from the factory in July of 1956. (My thanks to Roy Jinks for this date.) Frame, cylinder and barrel are numbered alike. High polish finish; standard width (i.e., non-target) hammer and trigger. The adjustable sights are not upgraded -- rear has no white outline, front blade has no bead. The Diamond Magnas are numbered 122657, so if anyone out there has that N-frame -- I have your stocks. Ultimately I think I may put some coke bottle stocks on this gun. I know that will not reflect any original configuration, but the current stocks, though appropriate in style, already aren't right in terms of numbering. If you can't dress it authentically, you might as well dress it up.











Nice geometry in the overhead view.


Easy to read the serial...


Same number on the cylinder.


Recoil Shield shows little wear.


After the light turn ring, the worst damage on the gun is the scrape on the left ramp edge near the front sight.


Looks good ready for action.




And the box. That is this gun's serial number on the bottom of the box, but the number seems to be written in ball point or fiber tip ink rather than grease pencil -- an anachronism. I conclude the number was added to the box years after it was first sold. I can't even be sure this is this gun's original box, though some internal scuffing and staining indicate this gun and this box have been together for some time.


The gun came with no tools. It has no cards or other printed enclosures. There is a crumpled sheet of anti rust paper. That's it.

I am extremely pleased.

[Edited 3/3/09 to clarify language and add a couple of details.]

[Edited again 4/21/09 to add new info from factory letter.]

David Wilson
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:24 PM
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That is absolutely beautiful. Thanks for the pics (very nice pics at that).

Chris
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:44 PM
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David:

VERY PRETTY !

Thank you for the great photos and serial number !

Jerry
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Old 03-02-2009, 10:14 PM
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Man, that one must have sat in somebody's sock drawer for the last 50 years... gorgeous !!
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:34 AM
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That's a "Dream Gun", the kind we all dream about finding. A beautiful, classic S&W!
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:56 AM
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DC, if you're interested in selling those grips, I'm interested in buying em'.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladder13:
DC, if you're interested in selling those grips, I'm interested in buying em'.
Mike, thanks for your interest, but I think I'm going to hang on to them. If I decide to let them go later, I'll get in touch with you.

David
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:49 AM
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That is one bee yooo tee full heater.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:52 AM
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David,

Congratulations! It just doesn't get much better that that when it comes to classic S&Ws. You might give a Tyler T-grip a try with those magnas. They look pretty good and can really aid in shooting.

Thanks for the post and beautiful pictures.

Jerry
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:15 AM
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Speaking of grips, here are some flash snaps of the gun sporting refinished Cokes that I picked up a few weeks ago. I'm just letting the new family member try them on for size. I also have some smooth dark walnut targets that might look good on this guy.





Jerry, thanks for the T-Grip suggestion. I have a couple of guns that would probably benefit from them. I just haven't got around to ordering any yet.

David
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:18 AM
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very nice indeed
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DCWilson:
Quote:
Originally posted by ladder13:
DC, if you're interested in selling those grips, I'm interested in buying em'.
Mike, thanks for your interest, but I think I'm going to hang on to them. If I decide to let them go later, I'll get in touch with you.

David
Thanks for the consideration David. You would be wise to hang onto those Magna's. Duh! Can't believe I just said that. LOL
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:54 AM
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David,

Your photos are fantastic my friend!

That revolver looks much better than I remember it in person.

Congrats on a fine gun!

Best,

Michael
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:31 AM
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Dave,
Nice gun-even though it does have sights!
After the HD, it is my favorite.
Thanks for posting it,
Bill
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
DCWilson
Fantastic Gun and I certainly can see why you don't have buyers remorse. Congratulations on a great purchase.
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Old 03-04-2009, 04:14 PM
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OH YES!!!
Thanks for posting the pics, Hill
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DCWilson:
....
Details: S144228, shipped from the factory in July of 1956. (My thanks to Roy Jinks for this date.) Frame, cylinder and barrel are numbered alike. High polish finish; standard width (i.e., non-target) hammer and trigger. The adjustable sights are not upgraded -- rear has no white outline, front blade has no bead. The Diamond Magnas are numbered 122657, so if anyone out there has that N-frame -- I have your stocks. Ultimately I think I may put some coke bottle stocks on this gun. I know that will not reflect any original configuration, but the current stocks, though appropriate in style, already aren't right in terms of numbering. If you can't dress it authentically, you might as well dress it up.

Hi David, I'm a newcomer to the S&W Forum. Although a life-long gun owner and shooter (I'm 51) have only in the past few years come to appreciate S&W revolvers. As a novice I may be stepping out of line here, but I have a few questions - I am wondering if your gun may have been refinished at some point.

Observe the "MADE IN U.S.A." mark in the picture above. The lettering is much more shallow than the word "SPRINGFIELD" at the lower left of the stamping, and the Springfield itself shows variation - strong and deep on the "SPRING", and weakening to the right. This is the kind of uneven lettering that can result from having to overbuff an area to get rid of corrosion.

Likewise the TRADE MARK stamp shows variation, with the 10:00 position of the circle lighter than the rest, and the PAT. OFF appearing slightly deeper than the REG.

Maybe this is only because this gun got a high polish finish at the factory. Are stampings such as these done after final polish, or before? I don't have enough experience to say.

I'm also bothered by the fact that this gun appears pristine, yet it has wrongly numbered grips on it. One would think that if a gun had been put away virtually unshot, that the owner wouldn't bother swapping out the grips for an identical pair. I guess stranger things have happened though.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything, these are just some things I noticed and wondered about. It may be that the gun was misrepresented to you by the gunshop as all original - not necessarily on purpose - but if it has been refinished, it would be good to know. If nothing else, so that you do not pass it on incorrectly described someday.

Perhaps my comments are all wet - I hope so! I'm certainly not "above" owning a refinished gun (I have several and just had S&W do one for me). I have a 38/44 Heavy Duty I bought a few months ago that I'm a little uncertain about (as I got it for a tremendously low price) and when I get some time I would like to post pictures of it for an assessment.

Perhaps some of the more experienced members could weigh in on this. This is a great forum!

(I'll be out of town for a few days, so this isn't a hit-and-run troll - I just won't be able to reply until Monday if anyone has comments.)
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:34 PM
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Tom, I don't mind that you raised the question at all. If I bought a refinished gun, I need to know it. If it is a refinish, then I overpaid wildly for a good-looking shooter rather than overpaying slightly for a good-looking safe queen. It's not the dealer's fault. I sold this gun to myself just on an inspection. He said nothing about it. It was simply a commission piece that came through his door. I even turned away some cautioning comments from a forum member who also saw the gun before I bought it. He didn't say he thought it was refinished. He just pointed out a couple of things that to his eyes made it less than the ideal collectible.

I'm not as persuaded by the roll marking depth as you are. I have other guns that are clearly not refinished that show similar variation in cutting or pressing depth.

Relying on Skeezix' posts in this thread -- http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...341086372#8341086372 -- I get some indications of original finishing and one or two indications of refinishing. There are sharp and unrounded edges where you would expect them to be on a gun with the original finish -- not rounded over in a refinishing polish. Also, the front of the ejector rod is "in the white" rather than blued. At the other end, the center of the star is also in the white rather than blued -- but the faces of the cogs do appear to be dark. That may be a cause for suspicion.

If this is a refinish, it was not done by S&W; there are no factory refinishing marks under the grips.

Despite its overall high quality, the finish on this gun is not unworn. The stark lighting I used for my photos doesn't show it very well, but there is some finish wear at the muzzle in the three and nine o'clock positions. Also, there is some roughness at the point where the front sight base mates with the cutout in the barrel rib. I would not expect to see that in a recent refinishing job. I'd think that coarseness would have been polished out.

One thing I noticed that may or may not indicate a refinish is visible in the one photograph that you reprint in your post. On the frame directly in front of the cylinder is an area that seems to have ripples in it. If I saw this on something I had painted, I would call it "paint creep" or "sag." I don't know how this can be produced in a bluing process, whether original or more recent. Does anyone have any thoughts on this appearance?

I'll be happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this situation. If I bought a refinished gun, I am disappointed but I will have learned from the experience. But for the moment I am inclined to think this is what I first thought it was -- a very well preserved Pre-23.

David Wilson
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:57 AM
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David ,,hello again. I have your Outdoorsman s' brother. S1479xx and a letter showing it shipped in 6-7-55 .

Here are some pics for comparison. Mine has a couple rust spots. Small, but there.

Congratulations and enjoy your new Roscoe! When I say mine I couldn't help myself. It sure is a big gun for shootin'38 Specials. But that's the beauty of these.















Keep in touch ,Órange county man' Regards ,,,Allen F.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:25 PM
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David,
I for one do not believe it is refinished. I've found that the indicated 'flaws' particularly the 'panit sag' you mentioned are more an indicator of a factory finish; which are usually 'corrected' when refinished, especially if it were refinished as competent as this one looks. I own 'known' factory original finish guns with similar 'flaws' or better called 'characteristics'. As nice as these old Smiths were, they were seldom perfect from the factory. These factory 'characteristics' are in fact the exact issues one looks for to indicate original finish, (not unlike Colt single actions that I'm much more familiar with).

Also, I believe as you do, that the box is not the original due to the Serial # marking. More likely the non-original grips fit that scenario in my opinion. Likely it had grips that were after market and a subsequent owner added your grips and the box to get the gun back closer to factory configuration for resale. If the box were original, it would probably have the paper work and original grips in it, having been put aside by the original owner when the after market grips were installed. Just my 2 bits worth. It's a screamer and remember, if you feel whatever you paid was high, it's not too much, just a little too early!

The first thing I would do is polish the cylinder bolt with a dremel tool after masking the blued area around it, to avoid the cylinder ring from getting worse. The factory left them very rough with file marks.

Jim
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:26 PM
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Allen, I love your gun -- very handsome. There is just something so confidence-inspiring about holding a revolver that is so grossly over-engineered for the round it chambers. These .38 Special N-frames are extremely appealing guns.

Jim, thanks for weighing in on the question of refinishing. The more I look at this Pre-23, and the more I compare it to other little-used mid-century guns in my small collection, the more I feel I am correct in my opinion that this one has the original finish. I don't have a closed mind on this, so I'm still open to arguments to the contrary. I would not be afraid to pass this one around for hands-on inspection if a bunch of us end up in the same place at some time. If someone wants to suggest additional photos that might address the question, I'll be happy to take and post them. You can already see the unsmoothed recoil shield and the "white" center of the ejector star in the first set of images I put up.

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Old 03-05-2009, 08:16 PM
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Dave,
I looked at the pics again, and I don't think it has been refinished. If it has, then it was done by someone who really knows what they were doing. Most of the time the sideplate fit, screw holes elongated, front site pins polished flat, barrel pin polished flat, pitting under the finish, are all indications of refinishing. The real tale is if it letters as a high polish finished gun. I don't see why it shouldn't. As for grips not matching, there are tons of guns in great condition that the orginal owner took the originals off and put replacements on. Most Mod 520s don't have the correct numbered grips on them! Enjoy it, it's a beauty.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:53 AM
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Thanks Bill, I appreciate your feedback on this question.

David
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:42 AM
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Congrats!! Great find.
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  #26  
Old 03-07-2009, 08:00 PM
H P Bushrod H P Bushrod is offline
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Beautiful! Congrats on your purchase!
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  #27  
Old 03-08-2009, 02:12 PM
suds01 suds01 is offline
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David

i think you got a beautiful pistol. there wouldnt be any buyers remorse for me.... enjoy that baby, again and again

suds
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2009, 11:47 AM
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DCWilson DCWilson is offline
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BTT with additional info added to original post following receipt of factory letter.

DCW
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  #29  
Old 04-21-2009, 12:16 PM
j38 j38 is offline
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David,

Thanks for the update. I vist Baker regularly for work and I'll double-check next time to see if the hardware store is still there. I kind of doubt it as it doesn't ring a bell.

It does get cold over there in the winter - a 53 year old gun with good sense might want to opt for San Diego.

Jerry
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2009, 07:36 PM
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JSR III JSR III is offline
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I have to agree about the finish. It looks original to me. If it was redone, as Bill said, it was a damn good job. Depth of roll stamps or clearness of their cut is not an absolute determining factor. Stamps wear out and will not give the same impression the 1,000 th time as they do the first.

As far as stocks go, it seems that more S&W's have non original stocks than have original ones. I will never understand why that is. I have two S&W semi automatics that are pristine but have non medallion stocks. I have been advised that these are incorrect and must be replacements. One set is on a model 52 serial number 50156 (first or second year production) and the second set is on a pre model 39 serial number 1725 ( also probably within the first few years of production). I see no reason on earth why two guns in such new condition would require their stocks replaced. So with all that said, I believe that a lot of what is thought is conjecture and we will never really know.

Enjoy the gun as it is a beautiful example and don't worry about the finish.
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coke bottle grips, colt, ejector, jinks, model 39, model 52, n-frame, outdoorsman, sideplate, springfield, walnut

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