I would appreciate some learned opinions. Has this gun been reblued?

Attached Images

	pix551860185.jpg (89.2 KB, 560 views)
	pix218344233.jpg (95.5 KB, 504 views)
	pix126822752.jpg (73.3 KB, 469 views)
	pix217772947.jpg (59.9 KB, 420 views)
	pix512678741.jpg (152.6 KB, 389 views)

__________________
NRA Life Member

The pictures make the cylinder look a bit off, but I don't see anything else that makes me think re blue. It could be, but if so it's a top quality job.

Unless there's a star next to the serial number on the butt, that gun looks righteous to me.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Not in my opinion.

Super nice original piece, or the absolute finest reblue on the planet.

Thanks for the quick feedback. I will provide a couple more pics.

Attached Images

	pix790636792.jpg (172.4 KB, 288 views)
	pix851613649.jpg (38.1 KB, 249 views)
	pix123654427.jpg (35.9 KB, 234 views)
	pix427420224.jpg (44.1 KB, 194 views)

__________________
NRA Life Member

Not reblued in my eyes. Go for it.

Nothing suggests a refinish to me.

Bill

That looks legit to me

Clearly one of Turnbull's finest!!

Ralph Tremaine

Weren't guns of that era done in bright shiny blue? That looks like a matte blue.

__________________
A Future and A Hope.

How so, Ralph?

__________________
Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

With tongue planted firmly in cheek!

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside for those in need, Turnbull hasn't done a S&W for quite some time---more years than I can count---even if I already knew the answer. (And that's because his primary interest is in making money, and the customer base with S&Ws to be restored (not refinished), AND with the money to pay for it is pitifully small, AND pitifully small is not the amount of money in which Turnbull's primary interest lies, AND if you'll take notice of what we'll call Turnbull's specialties, you'll note they are relatively simple/easy to prepare (compared to the typical S&W revolver, which, when one examines the myriad different surfaces, one will (more or less) quickly come to the realization proper preparation of myriad surfaces takes A LOT of time (unless you have formed wheels like the factory does---or did-----AND wished they still did if they don't)----AND there ain't a whole lot of folks willing and able to pay the freight for that sort of work-----NOHOW!!!!)

Got all that?!!

Looks righteous to me!

With markings that crisp and deep, pins, side plate seam, screw heads all appear crisp, not dished or rounded, I'm thinking this one has an original finish.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

I despise reblued guns. That being said, I would jump on that gun.

The only thing I see on it is lint, from having spent its entire life in the sock drawer.

__________________
Kind regards, Heinz

In a word, NO.
The 1920s finishes don't equal Pre WW I finishes or the finishes of the 1930s that returned to the high polish.


I don't see ANY indication of a reblue. That is an early 44-3rd with a round top frame in the rather rare 6-1/2". Being an unrepentant 44 SLUT, I'd get all over that!

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

All I have to examine is these pics. The seller says that it might be an old reblue, he does not know for sure. He does mention that "The cylinder has turned to an even plum color" to quote him. I am not seeing it from the pics, but it seems to me that might be an indication of a reblue if so. I have seen that a lot on older blueing jobs. Apparently it is something that happens if the formula is not heated right or something. I have never seen it happen to factory bluing. I might be wrong?

I probably should have mentioned this in the beginning. Sorry.

__________________
NRA Life Member

Opinions vary, but that revolver could be correct for the time. First, the cylinder on many fine looking refinishes age to plum color because the cylinder is re-blued for the same amount of time as the rest of the parts. The harder steel in cylinders needs a longer amount of soak time, which few gunsmith refinisher consider. There are, however, factory guns that have shown this color change that have been deemed original.

I do not collect N frames, but finish is the same for all models of the era. Most of my K frame Target collection from the 1920s are all deep black carbonia blue with high gloss finish. Lacking the gloss, a 1920s gun could still well be original, given my notes on the subject.

Matte ("Satin") blue and high polish ("Bright") blue finish on K frame guns from the 1910s & 1920s. Satin blue was the standard, and bright was available on order, on both service and target grade guns.

I cannot tell for sure, but is the MADE IN USA weak on the right side of the frame? Lighting can turn dark bluing to grey color, but gloss guns will still be shiny. Your revolver has the type of finish that is standard for the era, so I lean towards original finish. Only an in-hands inspection could tell for sure.

Here is one example of a gloss finish option done by the factory.

Attached Images

	P1010003.jpg (69.2 KB, 654 views)
	P1010009.jpg (67.7 KB, 654 views)

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

If the seller will send more pics, ask him to remove the left stock and send a photo of the grip frame. If refinished by S&W, it will show there.
Also, ask for a pic of the front of the ejector rod knob. S&W left that area in the white, and an after-market refinish usually blues that area, too.
Good luck.....that's still one of my bucket list guns.

__________________
Mike H

I want to thank everyone for the comments and information. I knew that if I came here I would get some intelligent and knowledgeable information. I was not disappointed.

__________________
NRA Life Member

Not mentioning it is actually a good thing, if you can get some independent analysis before "poisoning the well" so to speak you can still get feedback after you supply this information.

This forum is excellent, the people here are wonderful, and going about asking advice here this way will only net you positive results.


I might add something to my previous post regarding this, and it has to do with owning and buying reblued guns.

I hate bad reblues. Hate in fact isn't a strong enough word. I despise them, and when a gun lurks in my gun room that has been sullied in that way it just eats at me until I rid myself of it. That said, I currently own at *least* a dozen re-finished guns, all of which please me immensely.

After experiencing some fine (documented) factory re-finishes, I was forced to evaluate my early collecting aversion to re-finished guns. There are so many atrocious reblues, and for so long "factory original", "mint", "new in box", etc, have mattered tremendously in collecting, my impulse was to just dismiss re-finished guns. In time I came to realize that this impulse has no place in a time when we can be provided excellent photographs, and evaluate the gun on it's own merits. Modified, refinished, abused, well used but cared for... all of these guns can occupy a pleasing space in a collection.

The second part for me was overcoming this notion that collecting my guns was "investing". It's not. As a hobby it can be cash neutral, or even grow in value if you buy right, but it's still my hobby. I personally do consider resale in my purchase decisions, but I am no longer deceiving myself that my guns are an "investment", despite having done very well in growing the value of my collection over the decade and a half I've been collecting.


As to the pictured gun, my personal assessment of it going into my collection would be that the finish is righteous, or so well re-finished as to not matter. To me that is. I'd personally believe that the cylinder has gone a bit off because of the heat treating, and I'd be happy. If I had it at the right price it would be a gun that pleased me and stayed in my collection. .44spl is grand, pre-war N-frames are grand, sharp markings, edges, etc... All a beautiful package. But. That's me. As the value of these extremely wonderful guns continues to climb, and the price to be paid to possess them becomes more dear, so too does the calculation for how pleasing it is to own. And that's a calculation everyone needs to sit down and think through for themselves.

As excellent as the community is here I don't think anyone should simply take the advice and have it override their personal feelings. It used to be different when such guns were an absolute steal to buy, but now that more people understand how wonderful these are and want them... those days are largely gone.

It looks original to me. The cylinder does suggest something, but I'm not sure what. The case hardening looks factory though and largely unworn which makes me think it's been in a sock drawer all its life. If it is a reblue it was done carefully, cause I can't tell. I think it's the real thing though.

I'm not a collector so I don't know the ins and outs of when the bright finishes were used and when the brushed (satin?) finishes were etc.

2 things,,,
The guns finish strikes me as as a rust blued finish look. That's just looking at the pics of course.
There's no polishing lines at all under the blued finish.
Maybe there isn't supposed to be.

#2. There is some pitting in the metal in and around the bbl lettering.
You can see it just looking at the pic of the bbl address. But if you enlarge it you can really pick it out.
That suggests to me a refinish,,that area at least was pitted somewhat and the polishing done to the metal was very careful so as not to disturb the bbl markings.
In doing so a very small amt of pin point pitting was left in and around the lettering.

When you do this stuff you have to either stop polishing at a point to secure the sharp and distinct lettering at the cost of leaving some of the damage you are trying to polish away.
Or continue to polish all of the pitting away and go ahead and take the lettering with it either slightly or in total.
This second approach has to be taken only with the ability to restore or have restored that lettering after the polishing is complete.

There is also some pitting,,or at least it appears as such in the pic,,in the chamfered edge betw the backstrap and the flat 'butt' area.
The pic of the bottom of the grip w/ser# and swivel shows it.
The area to the right of the flat where it transitions around to the backstrap.
Either pitting under the blue,,dust on the metal when the pic taken..
Maybe the Satin finish was applied by Particle Blasting??
If so it's a bit heavy right there as compared to the other surfaces.
It just looks different,,like some fine pitting..

The reddish hue color on the cylinder gets my attention as well.
That's usually Hot Salt Blue result,,choose your issue that causes it. But hot salt blueing is generally the blue method where it pops up.


That's just my observations of course.
A great looking piece. but I'd question the finish as being original.

I agree with the issues above, plus one more. Problem with assessing the finish it that the images do not enlarge with enough detail to see much other than the color. Satin Carbonia blue shows very much like the gun in question, but the preparation marks do not show up.

Downloading the images and enlarging them does show something about the barrel, maybe fine pits, or other damage??

Here is something I had not noticed before, the trigger stud is polished flat, something that was not done on any S&W made during that era. You should see nicely crowned stud showing under the cylinder, but that is not the case with this gun. Images below.

Attached Images

	pix123654427.jpg (25.7 KB, 540 views)
	pix218344233.jpg (60.8 KB, 540 views)
	2.jpg (103.8 KB, 540 views)

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

That does answer the question definitively. Again, thank you all. I have received a lot of help and learned a lot here.

__________________
NRA Life Member

Emphasis added... Is this something unique to the .44 HE? Or are you saying this is true of all Pre-War S&Ws?

I'm far from an expert on these, but I have seen many photos of pre-war S&Ws where the trigger pin was polished flat. I own several pre-war guns on I, K and N frames and they are all polished flat. I have a very hard time believing all these guns have been refinished.

I have seen some righteous guns with that pin flat so it's indicative, but not definitive.

__________________
SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Gary,
That is not correct. By 1925, and probably a year or two or even three earlier, the trigger stud on N frames is polished flush. I own and have owned a bunch of them. So, you aren't likely to see a Mod 1926 with a domed trigger stud.







J,
I hate to argue with you because I know your expertise level, but there are nuances to S&W finishes you may not know. The "pitting" you see around the barrel address is, IMO, just current freckles. The "pitting" you see in the letters is carbon deposits left by the carbona bluing. I have actually seen lumps of carbon inside S&Ws left by the bluing process! Roy has told us that the trigger guard screw was abandoned largely because that screw hole and tunnel would often clog with carbon and was very problematical to clear without damage to the finish.


Also-
The plum color on the cylinder occasionally occurred even with carbona bluing. I cannot explain how, unless it was caused by faulty temp control when a batch of cylinders were blued. I do know that when guns were blued, all parts were not blued in the same oven. An oven would contain nothing but cylinders. See Images of America - Smith & Wesson, page 106. I have observed several Post War 38/44 HDs that had slightly plum cylinders. They were probably done in the same batch.

There is the possibility that this is a Factory refinished gun, but I doubt it. The condition of the grips and the case colors just don't indicate that this gun had that rough a life.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I actually didn't see anything down in the individual lettering stamps themselves.
I was just looking at what looks to me to be small pitting under the blue finish around the lettering.
Especially easy to see around the 'Spring--' in Springfield and the '1901' date below it.
Since it's only around the lettering and not anywhere else on the metal once you get away from the lettering markings, that's what makes me think the surface was repolished and the metal reblued.

The repolishing carefully done to avoid disturbing the sharp roll stamp markings.
But also done as far as possible to remove as much of the pitting that is in betw and around the lettering as well.
Can't get it all w/o starting to make the lettering disappear and that would really make a re-finish stand out.


Also this area that I mentioned earlier.



The small rounded area on the right where the bottom flat transitions to the front grip strap.
It appears to have fine pitting on it (at least to me).
I think it's underneath the blue,,but it may be just a worn are in the bluing and now has some fine pitting in it. Hard to tell in a pic.

baby sleeping on me so one hand typing on a bad keyboard, but this picture does have one thing that strikes me as odd enough that I am going to try to mention it, so bear with my bad post.

All of my guns with a lanyard have scratches caused by the lanyard spinning. I don't see them here...

Is that just because my guns have looser lanyard rings that spin? Or is that actually an oddity?

These are all ways tough calls just from pics. But the trademark on the right side looks soft. Still a beauty. Forget about it.

__________________
Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I don't think it's an oddity, I do also notice the sharp edge on each side of the bottom flat has slightly dulled edges in 4 places,,see the light reflection areas giving the edges a white appearance in 4 short lengths,,2 on each edge.

What I think that is the wear from the old, loose lanyard swivel turning upon the flat as you point out.
It would also wear both the bottom flat and the grip wood as well.

Equally dulled edge marks in 4 positions right where the swivel would have reached when rotating around and around wearing upon the wood and metal together.

It wears a dull edge to the flats in those areas much like dulling a knife blade edge.
Now you see the light reflecting back at you on a very fine edge as the bottom flat have been polished flat once again. But the very edge where some of wear still exists is still there.

I'd bet those 'dulled edges' seen in the pics w/the light bouncing back and appearing to be in the white are actuallly blued right now.
They would not be if worn from the swivel making them dull, they would be worn bright thru the original finish.
But again no wear to the flat metal and none to the wood.



A tiny bit more polishng would have cleaned up those marks, but they are still these.
They could not have been worn into those edges and remained there w/o some matching wear to the flat of the butt metal and the grip wood as well.

Any scratches on the bottom flat metal were made to disappear in polishing.
The bottom flat of the wood grips appear to have been carefully flattened a small amt and some refininishing done as well.

Again just my opinion and guesses based on what I can see in the pics.

Some swivels are tighter. Some guns just haven't been used as much. The gun discussed here appears to have seen little use, so I'm OK with it lacking the "swivel circle".


Here is a gun that saw some use, but not much, and it lacks the circle:
The Young LT's Triple Lock .455

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I'd be OK with it not having any wear to it too, but those 4 small 'light' areas on the edges, 2 on each side/edge and right where the swivel would rotate over suggest to me there was wear.
..and now everything to indicate any wear that also produced those marks as well is gone. Just left with a thin remnant of those small worn spots on the edges left behind.

The Lt's gun would take an awful lot of wear to start showing those marks I am refering to.
Those grips are slightly proud of the metal (at least it appears so in the pic).

If the swivel is rotating around on the Lt's gun, it can't reach or touch the edges of the bottom flat. The proud wood keeps the swivel from rolling over those edges.
I suspect the swivel will bridge the bottom flat all together as it rides the proud wood from one grip panel on over to the other as it revolves.
An extremely loose fitting swivel may allow it to tilt and one end, the rounded portion, drag accross the flat, but that'd be about it.

The swivel rotating around would have to wear the wood down to the level of the metal before it ever has a chance to begin to additionally wear more wood &metal as one to get at the sharp edges or the flat.

It's those dulled edges to the flat polished butt in 4 locations that I see in the orig pic,,the short 'white lines' in the pic.

What I see is the result of the wear described above, then the bottom flat polished flat to elliminate it.
But leaving just a hint of the rounding or wear to the edges where the swivel went around and wore it down.
A little more polishing to the flat would have removed those 4 short rounded edges.

I can't think of any other thing that would place those 4 equally placed marks onto the edges of the metal, on opposite sides of the flat from each other & from the center of the swivel.

You folks were so helpful, and obviously interested in this old Smith that I thought that I ought to come back here and tell you how the story ends.

I won it tonight. I paid $2,175.00 for it before shipping and transfer.

I still can not say whether it is a reblue or not, for sure. I have greatly valued all of your thinking, and strong arguments have been made for both sides of the reblue issue. In the end, for this kind of money, I don't really care if it is a reblue or not. I personally ended up in the camp that does not believe that it is, but it could be. If so, it is so good that I am not going to worry about it.

Another thing that helped me make up my mind was stumbling on to this one in my research. They kind of talked about it in the add for my gun, but it kind of got lost in the noise. I found the actual Rock Island gun that they spoke of. My gun and this gun are five numbers, or four guns apart. The Rock Island gun has a Smith letter. It is described as one of 25 of this barrel length and configuration that went to W+K in April of 1927. Rock Island says that their gun was part of the first shipment of this model gun by S&W. The letter does not say that, but they claim to know this somehow. That certainly bears further research on my part, but is sounds plausible. Anyway, my gun, being the fourth gun made after their's is probably part of that group. Again, no proof. But plausible. Again, I will need to get a letter and whatever else I can find for verification, but I suspect that this is my gun's story. If you look carefully at the Rock Island gun, you can see that the cylinder on that gun is not exactly the same shade as the rest of the gun. I would not call it plum, but, there is something going on in a minor way at this point.

Anyway, the Rock Island gun cost its happy owner the best part of $9,000.00 by the time he paid his bidder's fees. So, I could not pass on this for what it cost me.

Here is the Rock Island gun: Fantastic Early Wolf & Klar Shipped Smith & Wesson .44 | Rock Island Auction

__________________
NRA Life Member

Congratulations on getting that 44! Let us know what you think of it when you get it. It certainly appears to be a very nice gun.

__________________
Tim
SWCA #2697

Now that you have it, how about posting some new pics. I'd love to know if it is a reblue or original. Thanks.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Here are the best pics that I can take with what I have for equipment. The pics of the various lettering and insignia are as close as I can get. They are a bit blurry, but it can be seen that the edges are as sharp as can be.

The plumming is kind of "splotchy". Heavier in some areas than others. More pronounced inside some flutes, barely present in others.

Since thinking about buying, and since buying this gun I have gone on an extensive hunt of Smith revolvers with plumming. I have come across a bunch of them that I know are original with various degrees of plum. Most often cylinder, but I have seen a few frames. I have seen several 38/44s from this general era with noticeably plum cylinders that absolutely were not refinished. So, I know, that though rare, the factory did put out some finish jobs that turned plum in later years.

So, I do not believe that it has been reblued. But, I will submit these pics to see what others think.

Attached Images

	IMG_1600.jpg (52.3 KB, 39 views)
	IMG_1601.jpg (48.5 KB, 36 views)
	IMG_1602.jpg (34.8 KB, 33 views)
	IMG_1606.jpg (50.2 KB, 31 views)
	IMG_1605.jpg (63.2 KB, 33 views)

__________________
NRA Life Member

A few more pics.................

Attached Images

	IMG_1597.jpg (36.6 KB, 31 views)
	IMG_1610.jpg (55.7 KB, 30 views)
	IMG_1612.jpg (50.1 KB, 29 views)

__________________
NRA Life Member

I am confident that your revolver has NOT been reblued. Others far more knowledgeable than I already have chimed in as to potential causes of the plum coloration of the cylinder.

Yep, looks righteous to me. Thanks for the pics.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett