The ad reads :

"These Smith & Wesson Military & Police .38 Special revolvers were purchased from
the US Govt. Only 79 left out of 750. 2" barrels, sand blast Parkerized finish,
plain Military Walnut Grips. Nearly new condition. $39.95"

This is exactly how the ad reads, from American Rifleman Jul 1959, for Kleins Sporting
Goods, Chicago, Ill .

Even has a picture of the gun - complete with NO lug under the barrel, and its
extractor rod going almost to the end of the "nearly new condition" barrel !!

Another ad appeared about two months later, advertising similar guns . The first line
of the ad reads

"GENUINE SMITH & WESSON M&P .38 S&W CALIBER 2" SNUB NOSED REVOLVERS -- $34.95 ."

There you have it !

Regards, Mike Priwer

The ad reads :

"These Smith & Wesson Military & Police .38 Special revolvers were purchased from
the US Govt. Only 79 left out of 750. 2" barrels, sand blast Parkerized finish,
plain Military Walnut Grips. Nearly new condition. $39.95"

This is exactly how the ad reads, from American Rifleman Jul 1959, for Kleins Sporting
Goods, Chicago, Ill .

Even has a picture of the gun - complete with NO lug under the barrel, and its
extractor rod going almost to the end of the "nearly new condition" barrel !!

Another ad appeared about two months later, advertising similar guns . The first line
of the ad reads

"GENUINE SMITH & WESSON M&P .38 S&W CALIBER 2" SNUB NOSED REVOLVERS -- $34.95 ."

There you have it !

Regards, Mike Priwer

Kinda reminds me of an old hardware store back home named Crazy Cecil's I can remember when I was a kid they had barrels of surplus M-1 carbines for about $30.00 (I am 43).

I'm certain that a fair share of the members here remember those ads well. In 1959, I'd suppose the average middle class working man was not earning much more than $100 to $150 take home pay weekly. Some even less than that, others perhaps a bit more. My point is that $39.95 could buy quite a bit of groceries, clothing, etc. during that time. So these were perhaps less expensive than buying a new 2 inch M&P, but they weren't exactly giving them away either.

I have to wonder, about the conversion cost. Parker Hale, Cogswell & Harrison and others, performed the conversions on these surplus arms, both S&W and Colt's. They then sold them to Klein's, obviously for less than $39.95 retail, so what do we imagine they paid for them in the first place in volume surplus and what was their combined cost of labor and parts to perform the conversion?

My guess is probaly about $5.00 each or less.

Back in the pre GCA of 1968 days, there were allot of goodies in the surplus warehouses of Europe for American import. Sporterizing military rifles became extremely popular then and many of these sporterized surplus arms still exist. Collectors generally criticize that practice but, it offers a brief glimpse into the gun culture of post WWII.

It's all relative. When I was a teenager surplus Mausers and Springfields abounded for $20-$50. But I was making $1.65 per hour.

I recall the first time I spent over $100 on a gun and gulped. Two weeks ago I spotted a gun on Gun Broker that I wanted and I almost sprained my wrist in my haste to hit the buy it now option at $1,000.

This is why advertiser target the 25-49 year old market. They have money, and can be manipulated by ads. Younger people don't have as much money. Older people have even more money are to wise to be fooled by advertising.

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No life story has happy end.

I don't have a Gun Digest of 1959 handy, so I'll ask - How much would a new S&W M10 w/ a 2" barrel cost back then?

I'm thinking it wouldn't be too much more than $40, and you would be getting a new one with a commercial grade finish, not some cut down, possibly converted (possibly by someone of dubious skill) surplus one.

As I recall, inflation wasn't raging then, so any GD in the range of 1958 - 1960 or thereabouts may do.

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You're shy a few manners.

In 1959 I was in boot camp in the USAF making about $68 per month. Can't buy much on that. However a couple years later when I was an E4 and making about $180 per month I bought a broomstick Mauser with wooden shoulder stock/holster for $35 from a Sgt. that had smuggled it into England, but after about 6 months of sweating keeping it hidden in the barracks (was illegal for me to have it in England), I sold it for $55 and made a great profit. Of course that gun today is worth north of $1000.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I think the Model 10 sold new for about $60 then.

I paid $31.55, with sales tax, for a MK II .455 in Denver in 1964-65. Condition was NRA Very Good Plus.

I regret selling it later. Like several guns, it had to pay for tuition when my GI Education Bill check was late.

I bought a Colt Super .38 National Match (fixed sights) for about $200 in the late 60's or early '70's and had to sell it for maybe $300 a few years later. That would now bring a pretty penny! I think it was made in 1934. It had the smoothest action that I've ever felt on an auto pistol. Colt hand honed the Match Grade actions.

Wouldn't shoot for sour apples, though. It was years later that it was discovered that the Super case needed to headspace on the case mouth, as with most auto pistol ammo. For years, the barrels were cut to have cartridges headspace on the semi-rim of the case.

T-Star

Lots of neat things in the old ads.



Sometimes, very neat things.



When this came up before, I dug through my pile of magazines. This was the one and only ad with an M13.

Very interesting ads. The oldest GD I could find is a '66 that lists a .38 Special S&W w/ 2" barrel at about $65. Since these MSRPs were often discounted, $55 or less sounds in the ballpark for '66.

Using an inflation calculator, I find that $55 in '66 would be approximately $50 in '59. I just am trying to figure out how much someone was really saving by buying one of these surplus snubbies as opposed to buying new. Surely they must have saved more than $10. (I do recognize that $10 was a lot in those days. I also note that my calculations are very iffy and that there are many other factors besides inflation that affect gun prices.)

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You're shy a few manners.

In the late 50s they were selling 1917 smiths and colts for I think $24.95, better grade $29.95 etc. I even think they were selling the well used ones for $19.95 or so.
I am not kidding, I once saw a underground comic book that would sell you a deactivated thompson, and another ad a few pages later advertiseing, "new barrels for your thompson"!
The comic also showed how to make knucks out of milk can handles etc.

I don't think there were all that many "Discount Houses" around when I was growing up and MSRP really did mean something in those days. We had real Gun Shops and the Prices were normally Retail even at the Bigger places. But, you could also go into one of those places and talk guns with someone who knew a bullet from a cartridge etc. In the early '70s I got my first FFL and the Mark-up from MSRP for S&Ws was only about 18% or so and it is very hard to make a living on that kind of a margin. The larger Mark-ups came on accessories such as Pachmayr Grips & Recoil Pads and Scopes. That was why a Dealer could afford to mount a scope or install a pad at no extra charge if you bought it at his Shop. Once the Discount places began carrying Scopes and other accessories and undercutting the small Shop prices; lots of Customers were upset(to put it mildly) when the Gun Shop owners started to charge for this to be done. At one point, I had a whole string of places that I did Gunsmithing for and a lot of it was the Scope mounting and pad mounting kind of thing. Of course, I also charged the Discount places full rate for doing this kind of work. But, then they just wrote my services off their Taxes as a "Cost of doing Business" deduction.

There was also the Browning Company that required you to sign a binding contract that you would NOT discount their products or your would never see another new Browning come in your door. There was a "Black List" provided to the Distributors by the Browning Company and if they got caught they lost there contract too.

After "Dirty Harry" came out I had lots of problems getting any .44 Magnums and many of the Distributors would "require" that you purchase a number of other 'Harder Sell'(such as, fixed sighted .38 Specials on the "K" frame and things like the .41 Magnum, especially the Model 58) S&Ws before you could even get on the "list" for one.

To put an earlier perspective on it, I have the original bill of sale for my grandfather's purchase of a Colt ShootingMaster in 357 for 41 dollars, in 1940. I am priviledged to still have the gun in like new shape, with thousands of rounds that I know of out of it. Must have quite a sacrifice then. We weren't a rich family.

In the late 50s when the colt single action returned along with the brand new colt python, I remember seeing both advertised for $125.00.
Put that in prospective with today. If you can find them, thats roughly ten times differance, and the wages, or inflation is just about the same.
But I will point out that those Kline ads in those days, the 1917 smiths and colts were cheaper than the surplus M&Ps and commandos. Also they were almost giveing away 1911s. Seemed no one wanted the pumpkin rollers back then!

The model 10 with a 3" barrel looks like a 2" barrel to me and the model 13 looks like a model 12.
I will try and call them today and order some!LOL
I wonder where they are now?
Peter

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Need 1/2 moon Chiefs special

Does anyone have a Sears & Roebuck Catalog from 1959? As I recall, they had page after page of S&Ws, Colts, and other handguns, in addition to all the rifles and shotguns they sold. All could be mail-ordered, of course.

As a kid, I used to pore over the S&R Catalog, but naturally I can't recall any of the prices. I may stop by the library later and see if they have one...

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You're shy a few manners.

Pred

I noticed that the 3" is really a 2", but then thought - Well, if they don't know an
original barrel from a cut barrel, maybe they can't read a ruler, as well !

Later, Mike Priwer

Unless prices really shot up between late 1957 and mid-59 (I wasn't much interested in economics back then) that's not such a great deal. Gart Bros. in Denver were advertising .38 Spl. Victories in the Nov. Rifleman at the same price, with 1917s (S&W or Colt, your choice) for $10 less.

In the same issue Strebe's in Washington, D.C. (!) had BSRs for $24.95.

If that was too rich for your blood, Winfield Arms in LA had Enfield .38 S&W revolvers for $17.50 or Webleys in .45 ACP (complete with 1/2 moon clips) for $12.95.

Of course, that didn't include shipping, which was express collect to your door.

Same issue had a lengthy article on the Volcanic and another on the new Swiss SIG Neuhausen pistols.


Now where did I park my time machine?

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I need ammo, not a ride.

The thing about this topic, and the ads in the magazines, is that I've been surprised about how
many times, on the site, people ask about a 2" Victory that, we find ultimately, has a cut barrel.

So then I see these ads, and now its very clear that these guns were sold by the carload ! I guess
they are still turning up, probably having been sold and resold several times.

Later, Mike Priwer

"to your door" ... via US Mail, no problem.

Shipping back then was a few bucks at most.

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You're shy a few manners.

I dont claim to be a expert, but would offer this: On those 2" m&ps and colts. World war two must of had tons of plain cloths security at defendse plants etc, and I would hazzard to guess or take it for granite that there were plenty of 2"s made for them. I worked security at lockheed from 1965 to 2000, and we had some old colt 2"s DS available. When I hired in most of us carried 4" colt offical polices. I checked the serial numbers on a few and it looked like they were issued durring the korean war. But we also had a bunch of old 6" officer model matchs, these were the real early models for us to train and practice with. I didnt check those dates. I dont know the number of guards they had durring war two, but I heard it was huge, I know when I hired in I would guess we had between 275 and 300 guards. And plenty of various plain cloths type security.

Mike;

These altered Victory models will continue to turn up regularly. Although I can't speculate about the numbers of them that were altered, I do know that we will continue to have less experienced people assume, or at least wonder, if they have found something special or unique when they encounter these. For most of us, they are just an altered revolver. For others, just a curiosity. However, despite them being sold in significant volume, eventually they will become less commonly seen and less often encountered as time goes by and the supply diminishes.

Whether it will one day occupy a legitimate niche interest within M&P collecting, is academic. In my opinion, these revolvers were ruined by the so called "conversions" that were performed by some otherwise prestigious firms. But the fact remains that it was done, for all the obvious commercial reasons we've discussed previously. Will these mutilated revolvers entertain significant collector interest in the future? That is anyones guess. In the end they are the ******* child of the sporterizing frenzy that drove surplus sales of otherwise obsolete arms during the 50's and 60's. That in itself may be their only appeal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jack Flash:
I don't have a Gun Digest of 1959 handy, so I'll ask - How much would a new S&W M10 w/ a 2" barrel cost back then?

The price in the 1959 Gun Digest is $62.00 for Blue and $68.00 for Nickel.

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Ken

The sad thing is my dad bought 20 of each and after he passed I had to split them with my brother.

I WISH!!!

Quote: "Does anyone have a Sears & Roebuck catalog from 1959?"

I don't have a catalog but just a few years after that I took my first job in a town of 30,000 in SE Kansas. A co-worker showed me a flyer from Sears advertising "British Army Rifles, .303 caliber, good condition." Can't remember the price but with s&H was under $20. I walked over to the Mail Order Store and placed an order. It came in a generic corregated box but the rifle was encased in a plastic envelope that I has to cut open. Inside was a brand new No. 4. Brand new, unused, unissued No 4. My co-worker took one look, ran over and placed an order for one. When it came, it looked like a battlefield pickup, oil soaked stock, gouges, chips scrapes, barely NRA Good. Luck of the draw, I guess.

Thanks, Ken.

While nosing around a local shop, I found a New Official Gun Book 1952 - 1953 which had the same prices. I guess there wasn't much inflation in the decade of the '50s.

So we can see that it would cost about $22 more to buy a new M10 than one of the M&Ps in the OP. In those days, that probably was enough to influence the average buyer.

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You're shy a few manners.