I posted this Registered Magnum over 2 years ago when it was purchased. The wriggle style engraving is not appealing to me (and many others I suspect) so I've decided to refinish it.

Typically, I'm not a fan or advocate of refinished revolvers, excluding factory refinished since it's hard for me to tell any difference. The gun is only original once. However, once it's been refinished, engraved or modified, I'm more open to refinishing. That's only an opinion and all are welcome to disagree.

I will update this thread as progress continues for anyone who's interested. For now, I have most of the engraving removed from the barrel and there's no going back now. I suspect this will take awhile to complete before rebluing.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I think I might have left it as it was; were you able to find any history on Raymond? If not, then perhaps I'd do the same thing you're doing or maybe have it engraved again by someone with a bit more skill than the original engraver. You're certainly not hurting the value of the gun and if it pleases you when finished than nothing else much matters. Do keep us updated as progress continues.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Do we know who "Raymond" was?? I may an outlier, but I kinda like it the way it was.

__________________
When words fail, music speaks.

I'm on this side of the equation... It has a history. Who was it shipped to? That may fill in some of the story. Ditto SWHF records.

__________________
Randy
Provenance nerd

That engraving is hideous. I look forward to seeing the project as it unfolds. You will end up with a much more appealing revolver. Good luck.

I vaguely remember the first thread on this Registered Magnum.
Curiosity got the better of me, so I looked it up.
Here's the link:

Pawn shop engraved registered magnum

Good luck with your project. I'm sure it will turn out to be a beautiful gun. However, you asked for opinions and if it were mine, I'd have left it as you found it. Reversing history is something that cannot be done. I look forward to seeing the finished project.

__________________
I'm gonna grow fins.

The foundation letter is in the link above. Shipped to Salt Lake City. Historical records show Raymond was the original owner.

I didn't find any Wolf and Klar connection or prominent law enforcement connection, which helped drive my decision.

Very interesting, with that provenance, I would have definitely left it as is/was, the tendency to judge objects and or styles of the past by today's standards is troubling to me.


That said, it is in the eye of the owner to decide, either way, very nice piece.

__________________
When words fail, music speaks.

As much as I enjoy the history of our hobby, I find myself solidly in jay73's camp. His earlier RM restoration was as period correct and faithful as any I have yet seen. That revolver is also my favorite RM.

I'll certainly bet that the finished product will be tasteful and will satisfy any lover of pre war Smiths. I don't know what's in the grand plan for this one, but if it finishes half as good as the last it would please nearly anyone.

Can't wait to see the next installment!

Pawn shop engraving is one "piece of history" I'd have no problem scrubbing from the collective memory, like it never even happened. Keep at it!

__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media

I'd go this route and give it a face lift as well.
Never a fan of the 'PawnShop' engraving style and I really don't see much of a history link other than someone else used to own it.
Ain't that true of any used gun.

Maybe the fact that the gun is an RM is what makes some hesitant to touch it.
If it was Raymond's Colt OP from the same era would it make a difference.

I look forward to keeping up with your progress on it.
Larry

__________________
Miss Buddies crsides & fat tom

I like what you are doing and look forward to seeing another one of your fine restorations.

I also agree with your refinishing. that engraving is not something I would want to look at, history or not.

I'm curious as to how much metal you have to remove to get past the engraving.

__________________
Mike SWCA 2865 NRA Benefactor

Looks like you're preparing it for a "proper" engraving project.

__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Okayyyyyy.....
First, I'll state that I fully understand the rights of private property. It's your gun, and you can do what you want with it.
That said, I'll give my take on this- It's a tragedy.
When you acquired the gun, it was a nice and interesting example of a type of engraving contemporary to the gun which was quite popular in the southwest back in the time of that gun. It was actually a very nice example of the engraving often attributed to W&K. I'm not wild about punch engraving, but I admire it as the poor man's engraving of that era. Granted, the man was no Ed McGivern or Jelly Bryce or Jerry Campbell, but he obviously had some association with law enforcement and rambled around the west doing various jobs. With the ever growing databases on ancestry sites, something truly interesting may turn up about him someday. According to Post #73 here- Registered magnum. worth it?, his son flew 24 missions in the ETO as a bombardier in a B-24, so I'll assume he at least had the ability to instill character in his son!
Nevertheless, the gun stood on its own as a really great example of a Reg Mag decorated in a funky style that was very popular back in the day of that gun.
When you are done, there will be one more refinished gun in the Reg Mag fold.
WHOOPEE! It still ain't original, and a cool gun and a man's history is lost forever.
IMO, just sell a gun if you don't like period modifications like pawn shop engraving or King alterations and buy an original gun.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Well, I like what you're doing. It was about as ugly as homemade sin. That engraving was poorly executed. None of it is consistent or even. Pappy always said "If you can't do something right, don't do it at all."
I'm just wondering how deep it was and how much metal you're going to have to take off.
Can you keep the surfaces flat and the edges sharp?
If not, and I suspect you may not be able to, then I would look into a quality engraving job as part of the restoration. Have the engraver refresh the factory markings also.
Here's an example of a pistol that had seen harder times. The engraver was gentle in his polishing...you can still see slight pitting in some areas and other imperfections. But this pistol was brought back to life from what was probably a heavily rusted example. This pistol obviously was not restored, but custom refinished. I love it and probably would not have given the original, rusted .41 Colt a second glance.
As far as restoring your RM, the quality and amount of polishing needed is going to determine your final steps. A high gloss reblue will require fine polishing, flat surfaces, and sharp edges if it's going to look good. If that's not obtainable due to the scratching on it, then engraving may be the way to go. A good engraver can design a pattern that will cover the blemishes and accent the pistol as a whole. Since RM's are highly desired and you don't have much in yours, that may be the way to go.

Just my two cents...

Attached Images

	IMG_20210622_120055034_HDR.jpg (91.5 KB, 440 views)
	IMG_20210622_120123427_HDR.jpg (104.8 KB, 435 views)
	IMG_20210622_120115557_HDR.jpg (49.5 KB, 435 views)
	IMG_20210622_120039432_HDR.jpg (73.8 KB, 443 views)
	IMG_20210622_120046619_HDR.jpg (73.3 KB, 435 views)

Handejector’s comments precisely mirror my own feelings. An essential aspect of that gun’s history and character has now been forever lost.

While I truly appreciate the idea of a person doing to their property as they wish, revising history is never a good idea.

But, it is too late now. Too bad, many enjoy the original, correct history and would have appreciated owning that piece.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Enjoying this robust discussion. Also looking forward to what will be wrought from this RM survivor through careful work and keen attention.

I see no problem with restoring it.

As a collector of many things, why can some collectibles be restored but not others?

Why is a restored 1965 Mustang, vintage Ferrari, etc etc worth as much, but often more, than a survivor/unrestored car?

As an owner of an unrestored and beautiful 1967 Shelby, I have received offers that are equal to what a fully restored car is worth and to which someone put a 100k into the restoration. Most often, the restored cars are worth more.

Why can't I restore a vintage guitar or amplifier? If I replace the tweed on a vintage Fender amp, why is it worth less? Why is a restored vintage guitar often worth half of an original example?

So, again, why can you restore a Ferrari, Packard, Dusenberg, etc but not you cannot restore a Registered Magnum and bring it back to it's former glory? The classic car is also "original only once". You can never exactly duplicate the factory paint just as you can never duplicate an original S&W factory finish from that era.

Thanks for reading....I hope someone has a good answer to this for me since this has always confused me.

I'm no authority on other collecting fields, but I have a few thoughts:
It obviously varies with the collecting field. If I collected guitars, an original Strat would be worth more than a refinished one to me. I'm just that way.
Everyone always brings up the cars when we get into this. Apples and oranges.
It would be very difficult for many mint cars to exist. Most cars are exposed to sun, rain, snow, road salt, tree sap, bird droppings, thrown objects, and windblown abrasives for their entire existence. Not many other collectibles have such a hard life in normal use. The only ones that come to mind are gas pumps and signs. So, to have a mint car, most must be restored.
We are talking about guns. Many were used hard, but cared for seriously. A cop caught in the rain usually oiled his gun that night and let the holster dry near the radiator. Not many people brought their cars in out of the rain and sun.
I don't mind some wear on a gun. It means it went somewhere and did something. I don't mind King alterations. They were the cool guns of their day. Should they all be restored to original?
As I said, I don't admire punch engraving as an aesthetic, but rather as a period alteration that was considered aesthetically pleasing at the time. There is a cool factor to it.
If offered this gun as it was, I would have paid at least $4000 for it. Maybe 5. Once it is refinished, I'm not interested. If I have to buy it in a deal to get 10 other good S&Ws, I would factor it in at $2000, figuring I could flip it for that or 500 more if comes out good when done.


I suppose some here would say this gun needs restoring-





It has some ugly blotches and some idiot carved his initials into some nice ivory. If I am able to buy it, perhaps I should have it hard chromed and make it my shooter. I can sand the initials off and get some nekkid wimmen or pirates scrimshawed on those grips. Arrrgh!!!

Attached Images

GSP.jpg (19.0 KB, 389 views)

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I have the same comment about cars vs. guns. It would be exceptional, if essentially impossible, to find any “classic” car that, straight from the factory, was immediately placed into a protective environment where it would be preserved, immune from wear, tear, and environmental and aging degradation effects. If such a car could be found, it would likely sell for a significantly greater amount than an identical car which had been used and later restored to the same factory-new condition. I suspect that the percentage of classic guns found in new, or as-new condition, is somewhat greater than cars. Therefore there is a larger market of bidders for them creating a significant price differential vs. guns in lower condition or restored guns. The effect would be the same were there significant numbers of classic cars in all-original pristine condition, but there aren’t. So car collectors must compete for restored cars, as that is their only available option.

^^Both excellent and well written points of view. I can appreciate what you are saying.

I also believe this is a very compelling discussion and the opposing view points are very strategically argued, definitely not an easy answer I think.

It seems to me that both sides are correct!

Even still, though it’s a tough one to pick, I think I’m choosing the side of the OP. The aftermarket engraving that is currently on it, done many decades ago, is truly hideous.

At the same time if I were as deep in to these older guns and especially the Registered Magnums that some of you folks are, I might fall in to the other camp.

There is one part of this that most of us seem to agree upon — that work is hideous, especially the name so prominently displayed, angled, too large and in an ugly font RIGHT on the side plate. Bleeeecccchhh.

But a great discussion.

I'd like to elaborate on my position in this matter. I posted above and showed pics of a SAA that I purchased already refinished. That is one of only a few refinished/restored firearms that I have out of a the whole collection.

I consider myself to be a purist at heart. Most of the firearms that I have purchased are in original condition-not perfect, but original.

I have a few refinished/custom guns that I bought because they were so well done. Like these two Colts: a 1969 .38 super and a 1978 Colt commander in .45 acp.






These pics show the true color of the grips better.





But the OP's pistol is NOT original. Sure, maybe that style of aftermarket engraving was popular regionally at one time, but the engraving on this pistol is amateurish at best and not a good representation of the style in question. I personally wouldn't have even considered buying this pistol.

What about the history? The history is that Raymond let some Bubba ruin his pistol. OP, I think you're doing Raymond a service by fixing the botched attempt at art.

And, Lee, I wouldn't refinish the pistol you posted. I might change out the grips since they are not original anyhow, but that would be my choice to make. I personally have never bought or even attempted to buy a firearm with someone else's name on it.

Just my two cents again.

Attached Images

	DSC02382.JPG (129.3 KB, 299 views)
	DSC02383.JPG (154.5 KB, 298 views)
	image000000.jpg (178.5 KB, 297 views)
	image000002.jpg (114.7 KB, 297 views)

To collectors of Wolf and Klar revolvers, that was an interesting revolver. More than a few Rangers, Police Officers, Sheriffs, and ranchers favored them.

But we are living in times where folks like to revise history. And it seems we have a few on this forum.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Ouch. It kinda sounds like you’re equating refinishing of an ugly aftermarket job to yanking down statues of American Statesmen.

Is that accurate? If so, two thumbs way down.

I can only assume you don’t realize who owned that Registered Magnum. I’m glad you wouldn’t have it refinished.

__________________
"I also cook."

I really, really hope that you WOULDN'T refinish General George S Patton Jr's Registered Magnum nor remove his grips!!!

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

There's a difference between engraving and someone taking a electric pencil to something. That hideous work looks like it falls into the electric pencil camp.

Since it is going to be difficult getting it to look like new, I like the idea of sending it to a real engraver to see what they can do to cover up/replace the existing damage. Trade that after market chicken scratch for something worthy to put on an RM.

__________________
My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

I think if it was the second owners name on there I might have been open for refinish. The fact that its the first and that he wanted his gun to look that way I think I would have left it be.

I find punch work crude and the name not well executed but also found it most interesting! I personally would pay much more for the first version.

I find many artists work as awful but would not want to paint over it.
I do wish the new owner well and hope his vision for it turns out respectable.

I understand wanting guns in original condition. I have had a few (thousand).
My point here is that some period alterations are desirable and/or collectible in their own right.
King guns are a noteworthy example. I never see anyone suggest they should be restored to original even though they have been altered greatly in most cases. They are not original but are highly sought after.



There seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding of "pawn shop" / "Wolf & Klar" / "Punch Engraving".

Do you guys think someone took their gun to a shop, gave them money, and said "Make my gun ugly." ???
At the time, this style engraving was considered desirable and attractive.

You are very wrong about 'Bubba' and this engraving being "amateurish". I have never seen a better job of punch engraving. It is so much better than most that I really doubt that it was done by W&K. I own and have owned guns known to be done by them, and they were not as well done as this gun was.
I am not trying to make anyone like this style engraving, just understand that it has appeal and value to those who do appreciate it. An analogy I will make is that I never grew to like Andy Warhol paintings, but I would not paint over one to make a yard sale sign!
From a pure monetary standpoint, the OP has turned a gun that was desirable to a fairly large group into just another refinished Reg Mag that will now be shunned by an even larger group. It would have sold for enough to buy a pretty decent Reg Mag in original condition.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

BTW- that is not a SAA. It is a Bisley.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Oh, I thought Georges St. Pierre the retired MMA fighter owned it?
or Georgia State Patrol?

Honestly, when I made that remark, it was about personalized or presentation firearms. I didn't even put the initials together in my mind. I wouldn't have a chance to own that pistol if I traded in my entire collection.

But I hope that's not the only point that you drew from my post.

As far as the quality of the engraving on the OP's RM...I guess we'll just have to disagree. I think the auction results spoke for themselves.

You guys are so worried about picking my post apart, you missed some great engraved Colts.

I'm finished.

Tomato, tomoto, Lee. It's referred to as the Colt's Bisley Model SAA.

Attached Images

image000000(15).jpg (45.0 KB, 231 views)

I own the Triple-Lock in the picture that was obviously engraved and refinished post-factory. The hammer and trigger appear to have some sort of fire-blue treatment. That bothered me a bit and I toyed with the idea of having them re-case hardened but dismissed that. Obviously someone was very proud of that gun to have it engraved and the hammer and trigger finish altered and also added Ivory grips so I decided to keep it original to the owner's dream. Glad I did!

__________________
John. SWCA #1586

I realize a Bisley is a single action.
SAA = Single Action Army, a specific model. A Bisley is not a Single Action Army. On this model "Single Action" is a description, not a model name. The model name is Bisley.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee,
I think what you're saying is that SAA only refers to the original military and civilian design.
I have found that SAA is used to describe the family of Colt single actions.
Variants, as you know, include the cavalry and military, the long flute, the sheriff's, the flattop (target) and the Bisley target model. The Bisley Model that I have pictured is a sub-variant of the Bisley target model. Colt never assigned these variants separate serial numbers.

Attached Images

	image000002(3).jpg (50.1 KB, 21 views)
	image000001(4).jpg (67.5 KB, 21 views)
	image000000(10).jpg (87.3 KB, 21 views)
	image000001(5).jpg (108.5 KB, 19 views)

All that is made up for collectors' convenience, kind of like "pre model 10" which I really doubt you will see on a S&W box.

I think the OP's job would be easier if the barrel were removed first.

Mike Priwer

Maybe in your eyes. I was talking about a revolver that was personalized for an individual. You seem to think it is ugly. I saw a collectible piece.

As for your thumbs…

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.