I received a Victory .38 s/n V 305xxx - I took photos and completed a S&W Hist Foundation request - sent that off in the mail, but I stumbled on this brain-trust and figure y'all be able to tell me tons just from experience. I'm really interested in the history of it, not so much the 'value'.
I took a bunch of photos and made them into a pdf (printed it with my request in the mail) so I'll attach it here.
Any thought/info/leads are most appreciated. Let me know if I did this all right... hate to be THAT guy.
It shipped in mid-1943. I’m sure others will be along shortly to narrow that down. You probably won’t get much specific history from the letter, other than where it shipped to in the US. Nice gun!
Thank man. That's 100% more than I knew 30 minutes ago!! I'd be interested in what someone would pay for it - not that it's for sale. I would like to know if I was taken for a ride on how much I paid.
I'd be interested in what someone would pay for it - not that it's for sale. I would like to know if I was taken for a ride on how much I paid.
I have no idea if you were taken for a ride, without knowing what you paid.
It is an original WWII US military revolver that appears to be in fine condition and they’re not making any more. People are paying around $600 for guns like that, with a premium if it went to the Navy.
The letter will let you know if it went to the army or navy from the factory. Beyond that is anyone's guess. If it went to the army, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of a 600-700 revolver, more if the right bidders get into a war on the auction site. If it's navy, the the lettered provenance will help, and it would be closer to around 800ish. If it was navy-marked (which everyone wants) it would be more. Those tend to go around 800-1000. Of course, there are any number of asking prices on the auction site, but I have been watching them for a few months now. Just scored a navy-marked for 600 shipped (not sure how the price was that low, I guess I just got lucky). Prices have been creeping upward, although I think they may stall in the near term. If you got it for less than 650 you did good, under 750 is decent, more than 800 is probably a bit rich. But as they say, you did pay too much, you just bought it early.
The closest SN to yours I have on my list is SN V3075xx which shipped on 7/15/43, and is Navy. Yours should have shipped close to that date as S&W was shipping out several thousands per week. To determine with absolute certainty if it is Navy or not would require a letter, but it is nearly 100% certain that if it is a .38 Special and has a U. S. PROPERTY stamp (as yours does), it went to the Navy. Its main use was to arm Naval aviation flight crews. Very early Navy revolvers were made under Navy contract and were unmarked. Later ones were made under Army contracts. Some early Navy examples were later engraved as being Navy property on the left side of the frame, with red or white paint in the engraving. That was not done by S&W at the plant. Aside from those early unmarked Navy revolvers, later revolvers destined for the Navy's use had a U. S. NAVY topstrap stamp, which was stopped at around SN V240000 or a little higher. Thereafter, all Victories which went to the Navy were stamped first as UNITED STATES PROPERTY, then a little later, U. S. PROPERTY on the topstrap (which yours has). No Navy markings were added. Those with engraved or stamped with U. S. NAVY markings may have some value premium but not those with the US property topstrap stamp. Yours would be the latter. The historical letter will give very little additional information than the above, other than to provide the exact shipping date and the Navy location (usually some Navy supply depot) to where it was shipped. It will not provide any information as to where it later went (such as to a specific ship or shore installation) after S&W shipped it to some Navy supply point. These Navy Victories had a long service life. Some were still in use by the various services through the Vietnam war.
Regarding value, it is difficult to say. Best to look on GunBroker for recent sales prices actually realized of similar Victories. Depending mainly upon condition, I would say in the range of $400-$800 at retail. Yours would probably be in the $500+ range as it seems to be in fairly good, but not perfect, condition. You did OK getting it for $400.
DWalt- sarcasm doesn't transmit, or I would have tried something like - Thanks for your approximates there .... I think you're probably right on with the WEEK-ISH and everything else. Wow. Thanks a lot. Hey I think that $400 was a good deal so I'm happy. I'll post the letter whenever I get it. I just sent for it. Does the secondary "deep dive" ever result in worthy information from them - that it justifies the cost?
I'm not so sure about that Chad. Navy marked Victories do bring a premium, sometimes a substantial premium. On the other hand the vast majority of Victory models were used by the Navy throughout the war, even after the Army took over procurement. A U.S. Property stamped Victory that went into the Navy inventory under the Army procurement system is just a Victory Model. Price will be determined mainly on condition, not on the fact that it went to Norfolk or Oakland or some other Navy installation.
I'm not so sure about that Chad. Navy marked Victories do bring a premium, sometimes a substantial premium. On the other hand the vast majority of Victory models were used by the Navy throughout the war, even after the Army took over procurement. A U.S. Property stamped Victory that went into the Navy inventory under the Army procurement system is just a Victory Model. Price will be determined mainly on condition, not on the fact that it went to Norfolk or Oakland or some other Navy installation.
At least that's what my experience tells me.
To me, a Victory model that went to the Navy would be worth a small premium. My father and my stepdad were both stationed in Norfolk at one time and I was hatched in Portsmouth.
My father and my stepdad were both stationed in Norfolk at one time and I was hatched in Portsmouth.
You might be interested to know that the last Navy shipment of the war went to Norfolk on August 13, 1945. That shipment included the highest numbered Victory Model that was part of a military shipment - SV802722.
Virtually all Victories in .38 Special having a topstrap property stamping went into Navy service. They have no appreciable scarcity premium. Those with the U. S. NAVY topstrap stamping are somewhat less common and will bring some premium. Some Victories shipped to the Navy had no topstrap stamping, and went to the OSS. Those could bring, if verified as OSS, a substantial premium. The earliest pre-Victory and Victory verified Navy service revolvers without topstrap stampings would also have some scarcity premium value.
Few, if any, Victories went into official U. S. Army military service during WWII.
Virtually all Victories in .38 Special having a topstrap property stamping went into Navy service. They have no appreciable scarcity premium. Those with the U. S. NAVY topstrap stamping are somewhat less common and will bring some premium. Some Victories shipped to the Navy had no topstrap stamping, and went to the OSS. Those could bring, if verified as OSS, a substantial premium. The earliest pre-Victory and Victory verified Navy service revolvers without topstrap stampings would also have some scarcity premium value.
Few, if any, Victories went into official U. S. Army military service during WWII.
This is interesting information. From my rudimentary knowledge gleaned from the internet, I assumed that US Property stamped revolvers went to the Army. Outside of a letter, is there any way to distinguish an Army victory revolver?
This is interesting information. From my rudimentary knowledge gleaned from the internet, I assumed that US Property stamped revolvers went to the Army. Outside of a letter, is there any way to distinguish an Army victory revolver?
I think absent a direct connection ("from the estate of a U.S. Army officer issued the gun during WW II"), legitimate unit markings on the gun, or a letter, knowing a specific VM went to the Army would be impossible to tell. Same with the later war examples that went to the OSS.
8892USMC,
1. Did not see that anyone answered your question about if you would know the date shipped. Your letter will say where your gun was shipped and the date it was shipped.
2. I did not detect any sarcasm in the response DWalt gave you. I have found DWalt to be a very knowledgeable and helpful member of our forum. He is also from Texas.
3.Deep dive. The SWHF documents can be quite helpful. I don't think they are likely to provide much in this instance. I have a gun that turned out to be owned by a Texas Ranger and fairly prominent FBI Agent. Would not have known this without the SWHF documents.
Here is a 2" 38 special Victory shipped to Ft Mason, in San Francisco. It is thought that Ft Mason was being used as a special ops training base, much like Camp Ritchie on the east coast, and had a need for 2" revolvers, particularly round butt guns. Once the war started, the factory stopped making round butt frames, shifting all production to square butt guns.
The first three pictures are the factory letter, and the auction catalog description of the gun. Be advised that the estimated price range was significantly understated!
These next two pictures are the right and left sides of the revolver.
The next picture is the roll marking on the top strap.
The final picture is the butt serial number, which was offset because of the hole for the lanyard ring.
Regards, Mike Priwer
Last edited by mikepriwer; 08-09-2022 at 02:20 PM.
I mentioned this in "A tale of two stories" in the S&WCA Journal Vol 53 Number 2 Summer 2019 page 20. This story is a sequel to two articles in the Autumn 1993 Journal, one by me and a follow-up by Roy, about an unusual marking on a very-late-shipped 2" 38 round butt revolver. Twenty five years later, when I wrote this latest article, additional information has become available.
I appreciate the reply and apologize to the OP for the thread drift. However, I see nothing in those articles that sheds any light on your statement about Ft. Mason.
It is possible that Fort Mason could have been a location for clandestine military training or similar activities during WWII. But a casual internet search provides no indication that its mission at that time included anything other than being an embarkation port facility for shipment of military supplies and troops going to the PTO.
So I got this today -- pretty fast reply from them. Maybe someone can share more insight? Maybe there's nothing further to say? I like to hear expert opinions. Not sure what that monetary amount he quotes means - look like an extra decimal in there, but maybe that's a government thing??
To me your gun looks like a great value at $400. Think the price was $20.50 and they just got another decimal and couple of zeros in there.
Noticed the other victory in the thread was marked "United States Property" while yours is marked "U.S. Property GHD"
What does GHD mean?
So I got this today -- pretty fast reply from them. Maybe someone can share more insight? Maybe there's nothing further to say? I like to hear expert opinions. Not sure what that monetary amount he quotes means - look like an extra decimal in there, but maybe that's a government thing??
Thanks.
There isn’t anything further to say. There is no way to find out what happened to it after it was shipped. It could have traveled around the world a few times, and possibly it saw service in Korea and Vietnam, but there is no way to know. $20 was a substantial sum in 1943. That would have been three days pay for many at that time.
Given a thirst for knowledge on this sort of thing, I'd be getting a copy of Charles W. Pate's book U.S. Handguns of World War II-----best way I know to become an instant expert.
My US Navy Victory was one of the earlier WWII versions, before the Army took over purchasing as posted by many above.
One of the many benefits of belonging to the SWCA and the Historical Foundation is that when you order a Factory Letter (also discounted from non-member price) you also receive any additional information available, along with your official Factory Letter.
With mine you can see that the Letter described same as yours' (where to, and when it shipped) and enclosed with the Letter was a photo copy of the actual invoice to the government.
Kind of neat to have with the gun in the files, but as posted above, there is no way to know where this gun went after being received by the Navy "Officer in Charge"..so was it in Joe Foss' shoulder holster as he flew sorties off Guadacanal..or did it sit in some Navy base file drawer...no one knows..but the speculation is always present, and makes for fun at gun BS sessions!
I think you did very good at $400. Yours appears in decent condition and now you know it was sent to Navy Norfolk. One more tip..check the grip panels for the stamped serial number (of course..use a good hollow ground screwdriver). If the grip panel stamped serial number matches the serial number of the gun..you win again, because a heck of a lot of Victories were cleaned by aircrewmen, or GI's and many times grips were removed from several weapons at the same time, with no regard when reassembling. I'm speculating on this for WWII practices but I can recall very clearly my US Army time assigned to arms room cleaning before inspections, etc. and having a whole load of 1911A1's dumped on my area for stripping (further than field stripping). My buddies and my thoughts were on: ladies, chow, liberty, chow, ladies, chow, rack time...can't recall even thinking about matching components.
I'd like to highlight another benefit of SWCA membership, especially for those interested in Victory Models. We now have the Victory Model database online, with details on over 4,500 revolvers.
Learning anything about this revolvers life after shipment to Norfolk is a total shot in the dark. It would require countless hours of research and would essentially almost be a stumble over information by accident sort of thing.
I have heard of national archive searches stumbling over things like ships logs which just happen to show a list of serial numbers of guns assigned to a ship or individual.
I don’t know about WWII era, but later troops ( army at least) were issued a wallet size “weapon card” listing the serial number of the issued gun, which was given to the armorer in exchange for the gun, then returned to the troop when the gun was brought back. Stumbling over a weapons card or similar document relating a firearm to an individual would be an epic needle in a haystack.
While the vast majority of victories were used by the navy during WWII, after the war the guns were transferred between various services and even non military government entities- I have seen some mention here and elsewhere some federal agencies like park rangers or the post office ended up with victories at one time or another.
From 1945 to the mid 1980’s, while the 1911A1 was considered the standard issue military pistol, the 38 revolver ( typically a model 15 ) was the standard issue handgun for the Air Force, and victories were used to supplement shortages of 15’s in the AF. Also specific personnel ( female MP’s, aviators in all branches) were designated revolvers for issue. A friend of mine was in Vietnam in the Army as an intelligence officer and his first issue firearm in Vietnam was a S&W model 15 of all things.
Aside from original shipping documentation, S&W would have no post-shipment records. Military issue revolvers were rarely returned to the factory for service work because the military did its own. The only exception to that I am aware of is the large batch of Navy revolvers sent back to the factory after the war for addition of the 1945 improved hammer drop safety. And those were marked as being modified.
Learning anything about this revolvers life after shipment to Norfolk is a total shot in the dark. It would require countless hours of research and would essentially almost be a stumble over information by accident sort of thing.
I have heard of national archive searches stumbling over things like ships logs which just happen to show a list of serial numbers of guns assigned to a ship or individual.
I don’t know about WWII era, but later troops ( army at least) were issued a wallet size “weapon card” listing the serial number of the issued gun, which was given to the armorer in exchange for the gun, then returned to the troop when the gun was brought back. Stumbling over a weapons card or similar document relating a firearm to an individual would be an epic needle in a haystack.
While the vast majority of victories were used by the navy during WWII, after the war the guns were transferred between various services and even non military government entities- I have seen some mention here and elsewhere some federal agencies like park rangers or the post office ended up with victories at one time or another.
From 1945 to the mid 1980’s, while the 1911A1 was considered the standard issue military pistol, the 38 revolver ( typically a model 15 ) was the standard issue handgun for the Air Force, and victories were used to supplement shortages of 15’s in the AF. Also specific personnel ( female MP’s, aviators in all branches) were designated revolvers for issue. A friend of mine was in Vietnam in the Army as an intelligence officer and his first issue firearm in Vietnam was a S&W model 15 of all things.
I was at Ft Benning in1973 and saw a female Army MP carrying a M15 S&W.
The only exception to that I am aware of is the large batch of Navy revolvers sent back to the factory after the war for addition of the 1945 improved hammer drop safety.
I don't think this happened after the war. I believe they were modified for the Navy sometime after January first and mid-August, 1945, when the war with Japan ended.
Also, we don't know how "large" the batch was.
I have only seen two of them. One is V23541 and the other is V384340. The former originally shipped in 1942, and the latter in August, 1943.
Quote:
And those were marked as being modified.
Yes. The S was added to the beginning of the serial number and the small s was stamped on the sideplate. The guns as they exist today are marked SV23541 and SV384340, respectively.
Learning anything about this revolvers life after shipment to Norfolk is a total shot in the dark. It would require countless hours of research and would essentially almost be a stumble over information by accident sort of thing.
I have heard of national archive searches stumbling over things like ships logs which just happen to show a list of serial numbers of guns assigned to a ship or individual.
I don’t know about WWII era, but later troops ( army at least) were issued a wallet size “weapon card” listing the serial number of the issued gun, which was given to the armorer in exchange for the gun, then returned to the troop when the gun was brought back. .
Nice re-memory - I had a weapon card for my m16 in the Service. ---- I did get a very nice, direct email response from Bill Cross S&WHF --
"I researched your .38 Victory model in our records, but was unable to find anything specific to your revolver. I did find several invoices for revolvers sold to the the U. S. Government in 1943 and stamped U. S. Navy on the shoulder strap. I will send you a copy of one of these invoices for your files at no charge."
I don't have a US NAVY stamp anywhere on mine, But I am happy to share whatever he sends if someone here finds interest in it.
It’s unlikely that there was ever a pool to make a deep dive into. What information were you expecting to find?
I wasn't hoping for anything specific - just optimistic about what ever might be know. You can't know unless you ask, right? It was worth a potential few bucks to find out. Bill Cross emailed me in the negative about my personal revolver, but is going to send some general information.
I have no idea if you were taken for a ride, without knowing what you paid.
It is an original WWII US military revolver that appears to be in fine condition and they’re not making any more. People are paying around $600 for guns like that, with a premium if it went to the Navy.
I wish I knew where you guys are routinely finding guns like this for only $600. I'd buy a boatload of them at that price and flip them for a 50% profit.
I wish I knew where you guys are routinely finding guns like this for only $600. I'd buy a boatload of them at that price and flip them for a 50% profit.
Sorry to clarify, but I got it for $400... I just lucked on it actually. I was looking at an M1 Garand and the Victory and 2 WWII 1911s were there too - I actually picked up a whole lot and the only one I think I paid over for was a mauser that had been sporterized a bit. In the lot was a 1903 from 1921 that's a complete survivor - it's worth bank and I paid $700. Estimate I got was $2000 on a bad day.
1st post- Victory ignorance isn't bliss
...Ben
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