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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 04-16-2009, 06:48 PM
epidoc epidoc is offline
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I am considering buying Triple Lock, serial number 2483 with World War I Scottish Regimental markings on the backstrap. Despite the low serial number the grips have a silver medalion, rather than plain wood at the top. They are the correct checkered grips. The pistol is in 455 Ely with about 90% high gloss finish. It has three British markings on the left side, one the frame and two on the barrel. All are a Crown over the letter V. The asking price is $1200.
Can anyone tell me what the markings mean? Are grips correct or from later Triple Lock? Is this a reasonable price for a gun with a known history of use by the British military?
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:48 PM
epidoc epidoc is offline
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I am considering buying Triple Lock, serial number 2483 with World War I Scottish Regimental markings on the backstrap. Despite the low serial number the grips have a silver medalion, rather than plain wood at the top. They are the correct checkered grips. The pistol is in 455 Ely with about 90% high gloss finish. It has three British markings on the left side, one the frame and two on the barrel. All are a Crown over the letter V. The asking price is $1200.
Can anyone tell me what the markings mean? Are grips correct or from later Triple Lock? Is this a reasonable price for a gun with a known history of use by the British military?
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:12 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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Joe, The grips are correct if they are numbered to the gun. The gun was made circa 1914-15 when gold medalions were used. If the gun is still in the original .455 cal, not converted to .45 Colt, and the finish is original, it's well worth the $1200 asking. Regimental markings are nice , but not a big factor in the price. They can be very interesting to research, as to in what campaigns and battles the regiment participated. Often there is a rack number on the gun also, and if you are really lucky the original issue documents for the gun may identify the officer who carried the gun. The Crown over V is the military acceptance/proof marks. Good Luck, Ed.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:15 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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Joe, After rereading my post above, I probably confused you about the grip medalions. Silver medalions would not be correct for the grips, so they are later grips. I took your statement that the grips were correct checkered wood, etc. to mean they were numbered to the gun. Apparently they are not, correct?
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:18 PM
29aholic 29aholic is offline
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Ditto what Ed said.
I would hazard a guess any original TL in the shape you describe is worth $1200 easily.
Besides the Crown Acceptance mark it should have (I think) it should have a proof mark on the barrel.
The UK used symbols for the proof which was a number followed by a square, followed by the " mark for XXX pounds per square inch.
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Old 04-18-2009, 11:19 AM
PJGP PJGP is offline
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The proof marks described by 29aholic are post 1955 civilian ones. The WW I military proof would be crossed pennants (flags), probably on the barrel lug of the frame.

Peter
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Old 04-18-2009, 06:48 PM
rhm0351 rhm0351 is offline
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What Scottish Regiment is marked on it? I have been researching the history of a privately purchased handgun in my collection that belonged to an officer in 1/8 The Royal Scots. Thanks.
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Old 04-19-2009, 05:20 PM
epidoc epidoc is offline
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Well I bought the pistol and can give you a little more information. The grips have the silver medalion, correct early checkering, but there are no numbers inside the grips. A small letter B followed by Y has been stamped on the right side of the frame under the right grip.
There is a small crown over V on frame where the barrel screws into the frame, at the base of the barrel where it screws into the frame. Just above the one one the barrel is a second mark. It appears to be a crown over the letter C.
There are no caliber markings on the barrel. The Smith & Wesson location and patent information is stamped on top of the barrel. The large Smith & Wesson logo is stamped on the right side plate.
The back strap is stamped with all capital letters as follows (K .H)H. L. I. I will try and post pictures tomorrow.

For for everyone's help so far.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:38 AM
PJGP PJGP is offline
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The marking you describe are London commercial proof and view, as in this photo:

The British military proof mark looks like the next photo - this one is on my Mk II 455 S&W:


I feel sure that your Triple Lock was a civilian (private) purchase by the original owner during WW I.

Peter
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:46 AM
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Thanks for the response and the pictures. Yes those are the markings on the left side of the frame and the barrel. I'm sure you are correct that the gun was purchased privately and not subjected to military approval.

I'm wondering if anyone can identify the military unit whose initials are stamped on the backstrap?
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:04 AM
Camster Camster is offline
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KH HLI Kirkcaldy Highlanders (or possibly another region beginning with K) Highland Light Infantry
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:11 PM
rhm0351 rhm0351 is offline
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As explained to me by a friend who is a British Navy Warrant Officer and a British military historian, many of the Regimentals, as he referred to the Scottish units, were like reserves, and often made up of wealthy individuals. These individuals tended to purchase their own sidearms in many documented cases. Below is my Colt 1902 Military .38 ACP carried by a 1stLt. in 1/8 The Royal Scots.

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Old 04-22-2009, 05:39 PM
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I think that opoefc is right in saying that the grips are correct if numbered to the gun, assuming no fraudulently added numbers. On the other hand I do not believe that a lack of numbers is evidence that the grips are not original. I have just seen too many TLs with unnumbered grips; many with grips that I believe may be original. I don’t know of any solid evidence for an assumption that all original TL grips were numbered to the guns.
John
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rhm0351:
As explained to me by a friend who is a British Navy Warrant Officer and a British military historian, many of the Regimentals, as he referred to the Scottish units, were like reserves, and often made up of wealthy individuals. These individuals tended to purchase their own sidearms in many documented cases. Below is my Colt 1902 Military .38 ACP carried by a 1stLt. in 1/8 The Royal Scots.


Although many Reserve units were called up or created during wartime, ALL British officers then bought their own sidearms. I think that changed when they adopted the .38 Enfield in the late 1920's.

Officers could buy at any store selling guns, or "purchase out of Stores" any revolver or auto pistol they wanted. If "out of Stores", it'd probably be an "issue" or official model. When so sold, the Broad Arrow mark would have another Broad Arrow stamped opposite it, indicating Sold Out of Stores, and now a private gun.

Officially, the gun was supposed to have to accept the current Service cartridges, but this seems to have been largely ignored. I've read of Stores even stocking .45 Colt and other popular ammo, although not the official .455 load. This was especially likely in India,and perhaps in other colonies.

Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, even mentioned the effectiveness of the Colt Frontier .44/40 on Afghan tribesmen in the 1880's. So, some of these guns were being used by officers there.
(Yes, he is the man who later invented the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver.)

Other Ranks (enlisted men and NCO's) normally had to carry "issue" revolvers, if they had a handgun at all. The primary exception was the SAS, which until recently had a policy that a member could use any handgun he wanted, provided that it could be obtained in Britain, or taken from an enemy. I believe that policy ended around the time that Tony Blair was Prime Minister. He was sort of the UK equivalent to Bill Clinton, when it came to his views on firearms.

However, the Commando regiments raised by Churchill's order in 1940 adopted the Colt .45 auto as their standard handgun. I can't say if the Prime Minister demanded that, the Colt M-1911 being his own favorite.

As for wealthy officers, yes, that is true. Regiments were often raised by the landowners in a region, and at one time, Colonels of Regiments sometimes paid for uniforms and arms.
This was originally a feudal practice, the lord of the area having responsibilities to the Crown to raise troops from among his peasants and freemen in time of need.

Some of the British regiments who fought in our Revolution probably carried arms furnished by the colonels who raised the regiments. These were sometimes of better quality than the regular Brown Bess, although of the same or very similar pattern. Officers, of course, bought their own pistols and swords and any long arm they wanted.

The pistols carried by Maj. Pitcairn, said to have fired "the shot heard around the world", were his own guns.

In WW I, Churchill having been deposed as Lord of the Admiralty, took up an Army commision and bought a Colt .45 auto to take to France. "Man at Arms" did a nice article on it and his other pistols some years ago. The present Lord Churchill allowed access to the guns, which had remained in the family. (Sir Winston Churchill was a graduate of Sandhurst, and was originally a cavalry officer, before entering politics. Note his quote used as my Signature. He wrote that after coming under fire on the Afghan frontier.)

Churchill was among the officers who liked the Mauser M-96 pistol, and he used one during the cavalry charge at Omdurman in the Sudan, in 1898. He claimed several kills from his ten-shot magazine. The Boers took this gun from him when he was captured in the Boer War, and he never recovered it.

If, "The Longest Day" movie is to be believed, Lord Lovat led his Lovat's Scouts commando regiment into France on D-Day while armed with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine that he usually used for deerstalking in Scotland. One supposes that he wasn't using softnosed bullets...

Hobson's Horse and other privately raised regiments were long a feature of the British Army in past days. During the Second Boer War, such police units as the Natal Mounted Police were also used against the enemy.

You can learn more about this sort of thing on the British Gun Pub at www.gunboards.com Grant R., from Medicine Hat, Alberta, is a great source of info there.

T-Star
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:35 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Quote:
I think that opoefc is right in saying that the grips are correct if numbered to the gun, assuming no fraudulently added numbers. On the other hand I do not believe that a lack of numbers is evidence that the grips are not original.
The grips in question have SILVER medallions, which came out in the 1930s.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:15 AM
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Muley,you are correct. I was not addressing these particular grips, but the assumpion in general that unnumbered grips are not original.
John
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