Came across this and thought some folks might find it interesting.








Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Think it’s interesting they are still cataloging a 1917

I'll take one of each at those prices.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

It clearly states that the only HE MOP stocks available were for the I frame. We know they were in the process of phasing MOP out because the known supply was of "inferior quality." Looks like the K frame size sold out before the I frame supply did.

1935 - Kit Gun not yet listed. It came out the next year.

And the .22/32 is still listed as a Heavy Frame Target, even though the K-22 was already available.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I’ve struggled with dyslexia all my life, but was wondering if it’s possible to Edit the title of your thread.

$60.00 in 1935 equals $1,317.55 today which for the quality you would be getting seems like a good deal.

Back in '53 I don't think my Dad made even 100 bucks a week.

Fixed.

Did you hear the one about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac?

He would lay awake at night wondering if there was a Dog in heaven!

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Funny. Did not notice the transposition. Was getting ready to post how it was amazing that the .357 Magnum was the same price in 1953 as in 1935.

__________________
David Reynolds

Suppose I had always thought that nickel plating was an upgrade but no upcharge for it in 1935?

I don't know for sure when the change happened (1930s maybe?), but originally nickel was the default finish. That is why on pre-WWII guns, there was a B on the barrel flat. It told the finish shop to blue the gun.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Interesting the Heavy Duty is only offered in 5 inch. I was aware the 4 inch was less common prewar but I guess they stopped the 4 inch early or started them after 1935?

I have never heard that. I think the B was to simply show the gun as being originally blue in case a replated gun came back in for service. It would also alert savvy buyers to replated guns. We keep saying that the B is to tell finishers to blue the gun, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. What about cylinders and frames? They are not marked with a B, and guns were not sent to finishing assembled. In fact, I strongly suspect that one guy did nothing but cylinders, another did frames, and yet another did barrels. I say that because they had MANY differently shaped buffing wheels for different parts- think about the flutes on a cylinder and the sides of the rib on 357 barrels. It did not make sense to be constantly changing wheels, so I suspect a guy buffed the same part ALL DAY.
My guess is Nickel guns were segregated in some other way- a different rack or a wooden tray for that gun's parts.

As far as no extra charge for nickel, my observation is there was no extra charge when BRIGHT, high-polish blue was standard. In the 30s, high-polish was standard. Nickel finish requires a high polish, but they were already doing it on all models. Post WW II guns with the satin blue were not the high-polish, so nickel was an upcharge. So was Bright Blue except for the 357.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee

A two part response:

1. I'm sure you don't refute that at least up until WWI, nickel was the default finish.

2a. Granted the B doesn't appear on other parts. But the assembly number does. Hence those parts, sideplate, yoke and frame, went to the finish shop together. No doubt they stayed connected in some way while there.

2b. As Roy has taught us, serial numbers were not stamped during the soft fit stage. So it would seem that a barrel destined for a blued frame would not necessarily have to have been linked to a particular frame when it was off to the finish shop. Do we know that fitting barrels was part of the soft fit stage? (Honest question - I don't know.)

2c. We have a more modern example of a stamped letter going to the finish shop for the purpose of instruction. On the Highway Patrolman, an H was stamped on the back of the cylinder to distinguish it from a cylinder for a .357 Magnum. The finish shop understood this to require the satin finish as opposed to the bright blue for the .357 Magnum.

Obviously, I don't know for certain that 2a and 2b were the way it was. But it makes a ton of sense to me. On the contrary, I can't imagine that the factory would go to the trouble of stamping all the blue barrels with a B just on the off chance the gun might come back for repairs. I am even less inclined to believe it had anything to do with protecting unsuspecting second buyers from purchasing a refinished gun. It is highly unlikely the company would be driven to an extra manufacturing step just for that reason.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

It is interesting that a round butt M&P is $.50 cheaper than a square butt M&P, which is probably due to the RB coming with hard rubber grips instead of walnut.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Jack, what makes you say that? I can't get my head around it. I've never read that. The catalogs don't indicate it. We have talked here for years about the percentage of nickel guns, and the figures discussed are always way below 50%. The only two HE models that I have observed a high percentage of nickel in are the 1896 and the 44-3rd.
In the 44-3rd, I think it is because there was an inherent preference for nickel with the clientele of W&K- Souyhwest Lawmen.
I just haven't seen anything to make me think nickel could be called the 'default' finish for HEs.





There are several steps where those 3 parts MUST be buffed together, so yes, they stayed together. Sideplates were buffed screwed to the frames with flathead screws. Yokes were polished in the frames so the front surfaces match.



Soft fitting occurred on white parts before bluing. THAT is why barrels and cylinders have serial numbers- so they got back to the same gun. They were fitted, numbered, and then blued or plated.

See Pics 40, 42, 47, 48 --- Raw Steel to Smith & Wesson (Pic HEAVY)
Later, post 1957-57, they went to hard fitting. Barrels and cylinders were blued, then fit to guns. THAT is why the parts no longer needed to be numbered to the gun.



You might be right. I was putting forth a supposition. The B definitely had a reason for being there.
I do think they built guns in batches. That is only efficient. Therefore, nickel guns would have been built in batches. So, as long as barrels showed up with Bs, they knew they were bluing. When the Bs weren't there, they knew they were nickeling.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee

That is very helpful. Thanks.

Something you wrote triggered a thought. If the frame, sideplate and yoke were all numbered and the barrel accompanied them, then the B would be the indicator for all four parts to get the blue finish. That really makes sense to me.

As for nickel being the default, I did read that somewhere, either here or in one of Roy's books, I think. But perhaps it was only on the top breaks and (possibly) the very early HEs. I just can't say for sure. It just stuck in my head. Maybe it was only the top breaks.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I also remember reading that about 19th Century guns, Jack...I remember reading that nickel was a longer lasting finish then, although neither one was nearly as good as later improvements...I have no idea what the source was......Ben

__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

It was named "Model 45 Army" in the 1930s. Later it was designated as the Model 22. It was in production from 1917 to 1966.

Nickle required least care than blue back then. Same reason stainless steel is so popular now over blue.

Those prices look unreal to us today, but the average annual salary in 1935, in the middle of the great depression, was around $1,500...puts it into perspective.

I know I’m kind of comparing “Macintosh to Jonathan’s” BUT since the 4th model 32-20 was ONLY available in the Square Butt and the improved service service sights were ONLY available on the Square Butt after 1923. I believe the 38spl Round Butt price reflects the 1902 frame,, and in turn the early (unimproved) sights.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...5&d=1680643061

However,, on the 32-20 4th change Square Butt we see the (pre 1923) sights. Often on serial numbers in the 100,000 range! I’m into 32-20s and notice many listings that FAIL to photograph the top strap,, but the front sight can often be a “tell” if a buyer is looking for the improved sight picture design.

Oh how I’d love to have a 100 year old ROUND BUTT 32-20 with the Improved Service Sights, but that’s just me *

It's my understanding that the B signified bluing, and the lack of it signified a nickel finish, up until WW2. At some point in the beginning of the US's entry into WW2, the military more/less controlled S&W, and the only guns that were being made were blued .38's - no nickel guns. Someone recognized that this meant that the B was not necessary, and so it was eliminated. Sometime after WW2 ended, and the nickel plating facility had been restarted, nickel guns carried the N designation, and blued guns, like during WW2, had no designation. Ie, the methodology used during war-time production continued. The default became blue.

Mike Priwer

Threads like this are why I enjoy this site so much. Starts with an innocuous post of a couple images and spirals down into an interesting historical lesson