Back in early March, I ran across an unusual 38 K frame target revolver. It was a nice 4 screw square-butt with serial number 61,196. Checking with Roy’s book, I found that the square-butt revolver was introduced with #58,000. The 5th screw was added at #62,450. This revolver was returned to the factory in February 1954, where It apparently received a new barrel, ejector rod, and a set of stocks, using 1950s parts. I was fortunate to find a barrel, an un-numbered two-line caliber marking in near new condition. Had my gunsmith remove the front sight and groove in the sight base for the original front sight. Of course, I had to also find the proper mushroom knob and early ejector rod front end as well, both supplied by Numrich Gun Parts. I had a very nice set of correct vintage stocks that fit the gun very well. All is now good and the gun now shows its original factory configuration.

Finding one was a very welcome addition to my collection, but a month later the near-impossible happened when I located a second 38 Target only four serial numbers lower than my previous purchase. I was able to purchase serial number 61,192 just last month. I can state that these are among only a very few I have seen in many years of looking. This one had its problems as well, with a quarter-inch wide front sight and an altered rear sight with the slot cut wide as well. It also had a small screw trigger stop installed in the guard. Adding the proper front sight and rear sight blade, I now have two seldom seen twin Target Revolvers. Finish on this one was also very good except for some odd wear and discoloration around the front sight. With some work, I was able to improve the look of the muzzle end of the barrel.

Both were well cared for, but obviously used. Bores and chambers were mirror. They show some minor flaws and some mottling of the blue, but they present very well. I guess letters are going to be required to determine if either went to a known shooter.

With only 4,450 total round and square-butt revolvers made, and a small number of targets in each butt style, the number of square-butt Target revolvers made during this time was very low. I am preparing a study on early 38 K frame Target revolvers in the near future, but my research to date indicates that 38 Model 1905 4 screw square-butt Target revolvers were made in the very low hundreds.

I would like those of you who have examples of this model to add to this thread with any information you might have. Comments on Target revolvers in serial number range 58,000 to 62,450 and in either square or round butt are welcome.

BEFORE





AFTER

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Gary
SWCA 2515

A practiced eye, perseverance, skill and a lot of luck played a hand in bringing those two together...Well done, and congratulations to you, Gary......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Great stories and terrific revolvers. Congratulations. Thanks for sharing them with us.

Best wishes for success in developing the story through your research.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

A neat pair but I think I'd have left 96 the way the factory overhauled it in 1954.

Don't forget that Roy abhorred the practice of updating classic revolvers with non-period parts and stampings. Fortunately he was able to stop the practice. I look at what was done to that revolver in 1954 as akin to putting a 4 line frame stamping on a WWI S&W.

I just cannot see Magna stocks on a 120 year old S&W. It is true that one can never return a gun to factory original, but putting things right is something I feel obligated to do.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I can see both sides of the conserve vs restore argument, Gary. On the one hand, it is nice to have it “brought back to where it was” but OTOH keeping the history of that gun (with as much provenance as possible) would also be attractive. At the very least I would retain all of the “updated parts” just in case.
Then again, it’s your gun, so it’s your decision.
Froggie

Here are two 4 screw targets ("pre-5 screw 4 screws") from my collection.

The first is a round butt, albeit outside of the serial range you specified (but I didn't understand the whys and wherefores of that serial range to begin with, so my ignorance just might accrue to your benefit). According to the letter, it's a .38 M&P Second Model Target. The serial number is 21898, and it was shipped August 8, 1902. The particulars noted in the letter go like so: "This modification occurred in 1902 and was produced until 1903 with a total production of 12,827 revolvers. These revolvers were produced between serial numbers 20975 and 33803 of the .38 Hand Ejector series."

Next is smack dab on the money of what you asked for: It's number is 59794----and it's a square butt. It's described as a .38 M&P Model of 1902 First Change Target. It was shipped February 26, 1906----and delivered to "Edward H. Burton, Shop"--"which would indicate that Mr. Burton was an employee and that the revolver was delivered to him in the S&W Factory Shop." Now comes a bunch of stuff indicating a good bit of confusion/ignorance attributable simply to not being there at the time, but more than interesting nonetheless: "This revolver is in the serial range for a round butt rather than a square butt. It certainly was shipped after the square butt model was introduced. It would lead to speculation if Mr. Burton was involved in the design of the square butt." Now comes some more stuff suggesting the author of the letter (from August 11, 2004) was more than a little intrigued by the situation----and went on a hunt. "In a search of the Springfield and area city directories we can not find a listing for Mr. Edward H. Burton. However, in an early 1900 factory picture of the company foreman I have a picture of Mr. Edward H. Burt and wonder if the caption on the picture is wrong."

Okay, so much for that! Now for some more REALLY STRANGE history: I bought both of these guns at the same time in the same place---two guys sitting together in the gun room at an SWCA Annual Meeting---Dallas is my recollection. The date of the letter tells me the meeting was 2004's, so wherever 2004's meeting was is where I bought them. The only reason I bought them was because I didn't have any 4 screw targets (and they were nice guns)----not because I knew there was anything special about them. Although the price was, shall we say, more than attractive----and equally confusing. Best recollection is I paid maybe $600-$700----for the pair.(!!!!)

Now we fast forward to when I decided it would be best to leave behind a pile of money rather than a pile of guns, and called David Carroll. He showed up with a huge roll of Bubble Wrap and a large folding metal work table, and that was the beginning of the end of my collection.

As for these two guns----those I paid maybe $600-$700 for the pair. David sold the first one for $2,750. The second one went for $2,650---thereabouts.

Go figure!!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph. I believe that the current model identification system leaves out at least one model that needs attention. The serial number 58,000 was the first appearance of the Model 1905, even though the accepted naming convention was Model 1902, 1st Change. We know by now that the factory/company named the square-butt a Model 1905 right from the start. However, the first Model 1905 by naming convention shows they all were were 5 screw revolvers starting with serial number 62450. The 4 screw square-butt revolver does not fit either "standard" model, so remains lost in the shuffle.

Thanks for the example you listed that falls into the group I am interested in. Good information.

Here is a page from the 1905 S&W Catalog clearly showing 4 screw frames and associated model names.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yeah, well the Factory knows what they know; and we of the lunatic fringe know what we decided back whenever about all this 1st Change/2nd Change and so-on business came about. I reckon nobody can say what the Factory says is wrong---only that what the lunatic fringe says is different.

Different strokes for different folks!

Ralph Tremaine

I know what you mean, but according to our current rules, the Model 1905 really did not happen until 1906, even though the unofficial Model 1905 was being sold in 1905. Looking at all the old databases, including one that Joe Miller kept, there were no sales of Model 1905 5 screw revolvers until 1906. Of course that means that the first issue Model 1905 only lasted one year, when the 1906 patent was issued for the 1st Change in 1906.

Interesting ship dates for my two guns. 61192 shipped in November 1905, while 61196 shipped in February 1905.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

My next story comes from I went to take these 4 screw guns apart for their "Welcome Bath". Step One was to get out Dave Chicoine's Antique Firearms -Assembly/Disassembly book, and pay attention.

I may not have paid close enough attention, because my initial effort to remove the trigger spring ended up with a broken punch-----one of those cup tip punches from Brownells, that go out the door for about $20---each!

I called Mike Priwer at that point, because I thought he knew more than a little bit about these guns. I was right! He not only knew more than a little bit, he had designed a special tool to cope with the trigger spring----the villain that broke my punch! And it's the neatest thing since sliced bread!!

I ordered a new punch, and Brownells sent it to me at NO charge! I felt bad about that because I hadn't said one word about the punch being faulty----only that I broke it. I guess they figured if it broke, there must have been something wrong with it. There most certainly was not!!

So----------if/when the spirits move you to take one of these things apart, let me know. I'll tell you about Mike's special tool---the secret weapon!!

Ralph Tremaine

Regarding the period from sn 58000, to sn 62450, in the .38 series, both round (1902) and square (1905) revolvers were being produced. The 1905 is the new kid on the block, with the first one being serial number 58000. The 1902's, however, were simply a continuation of the run that started with at sn 33804, ie, the 1902 1st change.

If we restrict ourselves to the serial number range of 58000 to 62450, that is only 4450 revolvers total. The mix of round butt vs square butt is not known within that range, nor is the mix of fix-sighted M&P's vs targets.

Furthermore, there is no information as to the distribution of the production of targets revolvers over the 33804 - 58000, in groups of 4450 revolvers. Rather than being evenly distributed, it's possible that some groups of 4450 serial numbers may have no round-butt targets produced. One such group of 4450 serial numbers might well be 58000 - 62450, the very period that we are trying to study here.

A better approach might be to study the entire period, from 33804 to 62450. We acknowledge that round butt's were produced over the entire period, and are all identical revolvers, while the square butts start at 58000. I prefer this longer period, because I have several round-butt targets from before 58000, and therefore can include them in this study.(I think one of them is 21898, Ralphs revolver.)

I put together a sketch of the whole period serial numbers, primarily to show the confusing nature of what was happening. The following picture is that sketch. I'll add pictures of the revolvers later today or tomorrow.



The first group of revolvers are the early 1902 no-change. There is no shoulder on the barrel. In fact, the only difference between 1899 and early 1902 barrels is the extractor lug under the barrel.

Here is the earliest 1902 that I now have, and Ralph did have! This is serial number 21898.



This next picture is a beautiful near-mint 5" target, serial number 30359. The oil on the surface is wreaking havoc with the coloring of the blue.



The next revolver is 30487, just two serial numbers away from the next one.



The next revolver is serial number 30489. It has an 8 3/8" Pope-marked barrel, which usually, but not always, means that the gun was to be shipped to a competitive shooter. The factory letter states that the barrel length is not mentioned on the invoice, which could mean that the barrel was special order.



The last one of the early 1902 no-changes is the next revolver with serial number 30495. This is just 6 serial numbers later than the previous revolver.



The next group of guns are the 1902 1st change guns. The first gun in this group is 36983, a 5" target. It was shipped to a distributor, but in the early 1920's it was shipped back to the factory from Catalina Island (about 22 miles west of Los Angeles) by a man known as Doc Vaughan, who established himself as the official Greeter of the city of Avalon. He was on the Avalon pier every day, welcoming the inbound passenger ship, and then bidding it farewell on its outbound trip. He wrote two books about himself and all of his worldly accomplishments, of which there were many!



The next gun in this group is 37577, and it is factory engraved. It went back to the factory, apparently for the nickel enhancement. This included nickel plating the cylinder (it has the circle-P stamp under the extractor star) and the pins and screws.



The next gun is 38737.



The next revolver is 44302.



The next revolver is 45225 with the 4" barrel.


The last of the round-butt revolvers is 50911 with the pearl stocks. The factory letter says that the grips were hard black rubber, but the gun had the pearl grips when I acquired it in about 1997.



This next revolver is the first one of the early 4-screw square butt's (1905). It's serial number is 59763, and it has a 5" barrel. The gun was in sad shape when I bought it, and required extensive work and a beautiful refinish by Dave Chicoine. Marvin Huey (of Huey cases) recheckered and refinished the grips.



The next one is serial number 59876.



The last two guns in the section are 61442 and 62015. It turns out that several years ago I took pictures of these two, along with 59763 (the previous one) in one picture, showing the difference in barrel length. 61442 had a broken forcing cone, and I fortunate enough to find a 4" barrel with the dual caliber roll marking, finished in nickel. I like targets in that barrel length, so I had it mounted on the 61442 frame. The bluing on this gun is worn to a lighter color in places, so refinishing the barrel was not an option. I had the original cylinder nickel plated, making a pinto out of the gun. The third gun in the picture, 62015, is 6 1/2".



Regards, Mike Priwer

I'll go Gary one better on weird shipping dates for a couple of guns that weren't quite brother and sister, but at least close kin.

An 8" 3rd Model Single Shot number 4826 was completed on June 21, 1911 and shipped on June 24, 1911.

A 6" 3rd Model Single Shot number 4807 was completed on May 9, 1911, and shipped on November 11, 1915!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go figure again!!

Ralph Tremaine

Well Mike, what used to be my gun and is now your gun looks a damn sight better with your grips on it than it did the last time I saw it!!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph

I agree about the grips. I know some of my targets letter with black rubber grips, but I've been dligent about changing them to wood. Keith Brown has made several pairs of birds-eye maple grips, and while not factory, they add to the appearance of the gun.

Regards, Mike

Therein lies one of my favorite features of using Renwax...No oil on the surface of my guns......Ben

__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Very nice pair !
My earliest M&P target model is around 1922 IIRC.
Those round but target frames remind of the 17-8 Heritage series.

A little rough around the edges with patina, here is 61,893, round butt, 5" barrel 1902 1st change Target. It shipped July 11, 1905.

Stu

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Stu

That's the kind of gun I like to see! I'll be adding a round butt at 38XXX and another at 50XXX, and a square butt at 59XXX - all 5" targets.

Regards, Mike

Shooter grade K 38 is next on my list.

Wow, thanks for the great pic's and history.
How about some more pics from you collectors
out there ?
Great stuff !!

Remember all the fellow vets this Memorial Day
73,
Sarge

I have 61266 square butt, and 62195 round butt. Both are 4-screw.

The round butt has period r to s conversion grips with the name and info of an Army Capt. written in pencil on the backs. I researched him. He a reservist and was over a shoreline battery in Seatle during WW1. His battalion got activated and shipped to France, but they were somewhere in the Atlantic when the war ended. They did some clean-up duty, then headed back home.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Substantially newer than the other models featured but it's the gun that got me here. My Grandfathers 1905 M&P Target. The serial number is hard to read but the best I can make out is 473948.

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GSP

There should be the same serial number on the flat underside of the barrel, and on the rear face of the cylinder. They might be easier to read than the butt. You might also remove the grips, and look for markings stamped on the grip frame. There might be a <>, or 3 or 4 digits of a date, indicating a return to the service department.

If possible, a picture of the rear sight assembly, with more light, would be interesting. The gun has a very high front sight, which suggests a higher-than-normal rear sight. What is the caliber of this gun? 38 Special?

Mike Priwer

Post #13 contained the following information.

"A 8 3rd Model Single Shot number 4826 was completed on June 21, 1911, and shipped on June 24, 1911.

A 6" 3rd Model Single Shot number 4807 was completed on May 9, 1911, and shipped on November 11, 1915".

How were the “completion” dates discovered. It was my understanding that these date are not available,

THX Frank

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Frank Z
S&WHF/S&WCA

I believe some factory foremen's production records used to pay pieceworkers are available, but don't quote my sometimes (OK, often) faulty memory on that......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

If I can locate a decent set of those non-medallion dished square butt grips what should I expect to pay? I don't need mint ones but nice clean condition would be needed.

They do show up on ebay from time to time since they were standard for five years from 1905 to 1910. Pristine pair will cost over $200, while worn sets might be found for $125. Curtis Harlow will bring any set back to life if needed. They are worth restoring since these were made with Circassian Walnut.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thank you for that info. Even a badly wore set can be restored? That is good news as finding a super clean set could take a while.