Here's that 38/200 that was supposed to go to South Africa before the war. The blue is better than the first pix but not quite as good as in the second. I'm working on my lighting and camera skills.
And I can not find any British or SA marks on it anywhere.

12-20-11: Still need to take time to make better pix. The light on the barrel is glare, not wear.

I hate to have to say this guys, but you Yanks must remember that the war started in 1939. You were late, just as in 1917! South Africa ordered 4" S&Ws in Feb 1940.

Peter

Alright. My bad. My Yank perspective. Not always correct perspective.

Factory letter says shipped to Union of South Africa May 3, 1940. Letter goes on to say it was one of 1200 units ordered. There are no extra marks on this gun.

Hamden:

I think your photo skills are fine, better than most. A very nice revolver, too. Does it have a lanyard ring?

Would you mind posting the complete serial, or sending it to me offline, so that we can include your SA gun in the Victory Model Database? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Nice!

The factory letter is wrong Hamden!

My research has uncovered that what happened was at the end of May 1940 SA agreed to transfer to the British the 4000 or so revolvers that were ready for shipment to SA (Britain was desperate for handguns). It is clear that the guns had left the factory, but had not yet been shipped to SA, and so S&W records do not show Britain as the destination. The British then returned the 4000 odd to SA in July/August from the S&W production against British orders.

The first 2200 S&W revolvers actually shipped to SA were sent in July and received in mid August 1940. All were stamped on the backstrap (as were subsequent shipments) with the Arrow in U property mark and a serial number.

Peter

PJGP;

I've read your comments above and in past threads disputing Roy Jinks letters concerning shipping of these revolvers, with interest. I too have a .38/200 that letters from S&W as shipped to SA in May 1940. It does not have the U property mark or a serial number on the backstrap.

Have you discussed your research with Mr. Jinks? If your research is valid, this would obviously change the pedigree of these important arms, at least according to the historical letters that have documented them as being "Union of South Africa" shipped. Perhaps Mr. Jinks' position is that the letter merely reflects the shipping records on file at S&W, rather than the actual receiving records at the delivery destination?

Hamden;

One of the nicest overall condition Brit Service Revolvers I've seen in quite some time. Very nice indeed!

Absolutely Hamden. S&W delivered "free alonside ship in New York". Shipping was organised by the SA Legation in Washington. later on shipping was controlled by the British Purchasing Commission in New York.

How do I post a picture on this forum?

Peter

Oops! Sorry Lefty, it was you and not Hamden I should have addressed.

Peter

Here you go!!

__________________
US Marine, 16 years+

This is all so cool. I say again that mine pictured does not have any non-factory stamping marks at all. Apparently S&W sent it towards South Africa. Did it go to Britain? South Africa? Why is it not marked? How it got to Oregon is a mystery.

Well let's look at this another way. My revolver is covered with civilian Birmingham proofs, I believe the "view mark" is from sometime in the 50's. Apparently, it was surplused for commercial sale or export from Britain at that point. That would account for a gun that letters as being shipped to SA having Birmingham proofs and lends some possible support to Peter's assertion that it never went to South Africa at all, but was part of the shipment diverted to Great Britain. My revolver was bought from a dealer in Texas. I'm in New York. So I share the same curiosity as Hamden (and probably a whole bunch of other members) as to how;

A gun manufactured for the British Commonwealth left the factory in Springfield Mass. shipping to South Africa via New York by ocean going freighter, but in the interim was diverted for shipment and ultimately delivered, in England. Where did these revolvers travel to next? Did they remain in England? Were they issued elsewhere in the Commonwealth for the war effort based upon critical need? There are no broad arrow British military acceptance marks to be found anywhere on this revolver, which gives rise to another question. Does anyone have or know of a British Service Revolver that falls in the "South Africa Shipment Serial Range" (May 1940) that has British military broad arrow acceptance marks?


Pictured above with Btitish Pattern 37 pistol lanyard.

Commercial proofs.

View Mark Birmingham proof house.


The commercial proofs seen on my revolver #687XXX, certainly establishes that it was in England after the war, that seems irrefuteable based upon the evidence. Where it was during the war is another question made even more puzzling by Peter's recent assertions contrary to Mr. Jinks record of shipment. Obviously it came back into the US sometime later, probably c.1950's as surplus. Now it's back in New York where it departed for war nearly 70 years ago. I almost feel obliged to bring it back to the factory to complete the long round trip journey home.

I certainly want to hear more discussion on this subject.

Edited to add;
Would like to hear from Charlie Flick, Linda and few other members who own these BSR's. Also as an aside, I bought this revolver some years ago from a Dallas TX. dealer who had it tagged as a "Model 10 in .38 Special that's been all marked up." The Brit's do go a bit overboard with the proof marks!

Can I ask again - how do I post a picture on this forum?

Peter

Go to the above post by mt1bkr and click on the linky that he posted.

Hi Lefty:

I have never encountered a 4 inch .38 S&W revolver in the South African serial number range which displayed the British Broad Arrow property mark. I just did a quick search of the Pre-Victory and Victory Database, which LWCmdr45 and I maintain. I found that none of the 16 guns listed in the So. African range (in 4" .38 S&W) had a recorded British Broad Arrow property mark.

This could mean:
A. The South African guns did not go to the UK for military service.
B. The South African guns did go to the UK for military service but did not receive the Broad Arrow marking.
C. Some of the South African guns did go to the UK and had the Broad Arrow marking applied, but have not been observed and recorded in the Database.

Take your pick.

Question for Peter: You wrote that "My research has uncovered that what happened was at the end of May 1940 SA agreed to transfer to the British the 4000 or so revolvers that were ready for shipment to SA (Britain was desperate for handguns). It is clear that the guns had left the factory, but had not yet been shipped to SA, and so S&W records do not show Britain as the destination. The British then returned the 4000 odd to SA in July/August from the S&W production against British orders."
Can you please share with us what sources your research relied upon? SA Defense Forces documents, SA government docs, published sources in SA, or perhaps something else? We are all trying to learn something here and I'm sure we would all like to hear more on this. Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Charlie;

For the moment at least, until we get some hard evidence concerning this historical dispute, I'll have to pick;

D. In May 1940, according to S&W records, it left the factory to be shipped to the Union of South Africa, via New York by ocean freighter. Sometime after the war, about c.1950, this British Contract Service Revolver was in Birmingham, England.

Those are the established facts, known to date. Until verifiable research data appears to the contrary, that's the story and I'm sticking to it!

Very puzzling...

Lefty, I'm in agreement and will vote for "D".

Factory records show the guns were shipped to South Africa by way of New York. I wonder if both the May 3rd and May 22nd shipments could have left NY on the same ship to their overseas destination?

I've wondered if the first shipment(s)of SA guns were not stamped with the SA "U" on the backstrap. So far from what I've learned, these early SA guns were in two different 1940 shipments from Smith & Wesson: May 3rd (1200 guns) and May 22 (1400 guns) and none have shown up yet with the "U" on the backstrap.

It would be very interesting to find out who paid for these May 1940 shipments... England or South Africa? This time frame was during the US Neutrality Act and shipments were "cash & carry".

Peter, a while back I think you mentioned that SA's first order was placed 2/19/1940 for a total of 8,800 revolvers. Do you know when this order was filled or paid? Any help you can share would be great!

Lefty, cool pic.. I like the FS dagger!

Linda
SWCA #1965

In the meantime, here's a pic of my .38/200 serial number 686,338 shipped on May 3, 1940:

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Charlie, I have been doing extensive research on handguns in South Africa 1900-1965 in the SA National and Defence Force archives. However, the UK doc came via a contact in the UK.

Initially SA offered the whole 8800 4" S&Ws ordered in Feb 1940, but Britain only took the 4000 that were ready for shipping (free alongside ship) and the 600 that were nearly ready. Britain replaced 4000 in July and 600 in August from the S&W production for them.

The first S&Ws arrived in SA in mid August and the lowest S/N I have found so far is 690876 (UDF No 811), which I have. The lowest UDF No I have seen is 112 S/N 693675. I have seen S/Ns 656437 and 691334 with no UDF markings or numbers. I assume that these were diverted guns, although why they are in SA I don't know. Lefty, I would appreciate the full S/N of your gun, which falls in between the above two. It received its Birmingham proof stamps in 1958 (code I)

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for posting the information on the diverted guns. I think this helps answer quite a few of the questions I've had.

Do the 2 guns you mentioned (656,437 and 691,334) have any "view marks" or broad arrows? Do you know if anyone has lettered them to find out what date they were shipped.

So far, I've only been able to find 2 of these early shipments - May 3rd and May 22nd, which only accounts for 2600 out of a total of 4600 guns.
There should be another shipment or two from Smith & Wesson.

Linda
SWCA #1965

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

__________________
Vaya con Dios

Peter;

I would be happy to provide the full serial number. Your email address is not posted in your profile. You can email me, from my profile, and I'll reply with the serial number.

Linda;

While everyone else seems to have been chasing Victory's in recent years, seems to me these were one of the scarcer guns to catch. Nice photo!

Charlie;

Are any of the 16 SA shipped guns in the Victory database marked with "U" property marks or SA serial numbers, that you know of?

Edited to add;

Interestingly, another one of these SA serial range BSR's has just come to my attention. Coincidentally, out of Texas once again. Ser#6870XX. I'm negotiating with the present owner. Has the same civilian Birmingham proofs, unsure of any U property marks or the date of the Birmingham view mark but my guess is they will probably be the same as mine. About 90% plus original finish but well scratched up from handling as surplus. Will keep you informed as negotiations progress.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldflatfoot:

Linda;

While everyone else seems to have been chasing Victory's in recent years, seems to me these were one of the scarcer guns to catch.

QUOTE]

Lefty, I agree 100% The stamped South African "U" and the New Zealand "NZ" ones are not that common, but at least they're marked.
These late range 600,000 series pre-Victory's don't seem to surface very often and when they do, they're overlooked.

It seems reasonable to assume that these guns were desperately needed after Dunkirk (May 26 - June 4, 1940). This may account for the lack of broad arrow stampings. The timeline seems to fit well with the dates on the documents that Peter posted.

Linda

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Regretably Linda I didn't record where I saw either of these revolvers. However, I am sure that they didn't have any British markings. I an also sure that no one here in SA even knows what "lettering" means!

Peter

Hi Peter:

Thank you for providing copies of the documents obtained as a result of your research efforts. This kind of primary source material is very hard to come by. It is important information and certainly helps to fill in some of the gaps in the information on the SA guns.

Do you have any plans to publish the results of your research? If so, I hope that you will let us know when and where that occurs as I am certain that many members here would be interested in reading your contribution to the body of knowledge on these martial arms.

Thanks again.

Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Hello Lefty:

I just checked the Database. Of the 16 SA guns recorded in the Database only 4 of them are recorded as having the U property mark or SA UDF serials.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Hi Linda:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that we have recorded additional shipments of S&W revolvers from the factory to South Africa on June 4, 1940 and July 8, 1940. The number of units in each of these shipments is not recorded, however.

Hope that helps you.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Hello Again, Peter:

Am I correct in assuming that all four of these revolvers mentioned are in .38 S&W with 4" barrels?

By the way, the lowest serial number for a SA gun that we have recorded in the Victory Model Database is 685350 which has a factory letter indicating shipment to SA on May 3, 1940. It is recorded as having no U mark or SA UDF serial but does have the post-war British commercial proofmarks.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the added info... I was aware of the July 8, 1940 shipment. I believe Peter had posted info sometime ago on a gun from that shipment - 692085, UDF968, - shipment arrived in S.A. sometime in August of 1940.

I was not aware of a shipment on June 4, 1940. Do you know if the gun you have in your database from this shipment has a UDF number? vs. post war British view marks?

Thanks,
Linda

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Hi Linda:

The Database shows two SA revolvers that shipped 6-4-40. Neither is recorded as having any military, property or postwar commercial markings.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Have any of you read that many of the .38/200's sent to the UK in 1940 were so urgently needed that they were issued to troops without being British proofed until after the war, when sold as surplus?

Wish that I could recall where I read that...Probably also applied to Colt .38's shipped at that time.

T-Star

Finalized the deal on my newly acquired BSR SA serial range # 6870XX. Thanks to a friend, we learned from Roy Jinks that it shipped on May 3, 1940. So it would appear that I now have one from each of the May 1940 ship dates.
Here's a photo of the one I bought yesterday.




These are the sellers photos. I will not have it in hand until early this next week. I have a pair of correct service style stocks to replace the existing aftermarket plastic and a correct lanyard ring so that's no problem. After I get it cleaned up and back to form I'll post new photos. Sold by an 88 year old gentleman. I'm trying to get more information on his recollection of where and when he acquired it. He's old enough to have been a WWII vet. I'll know more next week.

KKG;

Linda's observation of the emergency and panic atmosphere following the rescue and massive evacuation effort by the Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and civilian British mariners at Dunkirk, might be the reference which you cite, but cannot recall. It is definitely compatible with the timeline and dates from Peter, S&W (Jinks) and historical source material. This just gets better when more of us contribute information. Thank you!

For everyone information, my thread starter, May 3, 1940 shipped SA BSR 4" blue is sn 6852xx. And it has no lanyard loop. Only a hole.
Also the grips are numbered to the gun.

Hamden;

Try SARCO.com or Numrich Gun Parts co. online catalogs. I think they both have them. Also check gunbroker.com there is one listed now but the rules here prohibit links to live auctions. Just go to gunbroker and enter "lanyard swivel" or "lanyard ring" in the search terms. Or you can post in the accessories wanted section of the classifieds here on the forum. Good luck.

Thanks also for starting this thread!

Hamden, great thread, thanks for starting it!

Lefty, congrats on your new find! Like you said, now you have one from each of the May 1940 shipments.

Quite a while back, I started researching ship transports between NY and Capetown, S.A. and came up with a quite a few. Two ships in particular, the West Isleta and the West Cawthon (Carthon), made the trip fairly regularly. However, they both stopped making the NY-Capetown run around the end of May and the beginning of June 1940. These ships were privately owned up until this time when ownership was transferred to the British Ministry of War Transport (MoWT),and renamed Empire Merlin and Empire Bison.

Both ships started their transatlantic crossings and sailed in convoys from Halifax, Nova Scotia to Liverpool in May and June of 1940 (Empire Merlin departed Halifax on May 28th in Convoy HX-46 and the Empirie Bison on July 15th in Convoy HX-58 arriving in Liverpool on July 31, 1940).

The Empire Merlin was sunk on her return voyage departing Liverpool on July 5, 1940. Empire Bison made her next few crossings safely, but unfortunately was sunk on a crossing between Halifax and Liverpool on November 1, 1940.

I guess we may never know for sure when or where these BSR guns shipped after arriving in NY, but from Peter's information, we know they were diverted from their original destination.

I'll continue my research and see what develops. There were many ships in and out of NY during this time period. The West Cawthon/Empire Bison has caught my attention. After arriving in NY on her regular run from Capetown on June 6, 1940 she sat at the dock for over a month, awaiting a new Captain and crew, before joining a convoy out of Halifax for her first transatlantic crossing to Liverpool.

Linda

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Well, once again this site has been a bad influence on me. All this great history got me "sensitized" to, and more aware of these great weapons. Wouldn't you know it, but one just happened to be lurking at my favorite shop this morning. Nothing as exotic or as well-traveled as the SA's and BSR's that you all have been writing about; it's just a 4" 38 Spl. marked "Westinghouse PD 8, Massilon"; no proof marks or "US Property" roll stamp. But it's in great condition, although missing it's lanyard ring. I suspect it's a defense plant edition. Anyway, it's on Speedo's perpetual lay-away shelf; photos in a couple of weeks.

Hamden and others: thanks for starting and developing this thread. The history that the Victory editions touched is humbling; it's nice to be able to hold a little bit of it in my hands. -S2

Thanks Linda! As an aside, I wonder if these (and other) ships cargo manifests are available? They certainly must be declassified.

Is anybody researching declassified British source documents that concern distribution, allocation or assignment of small arms to their military forces following the BPC contract with S&W?

We have a fairly good timeline and some fundamental leads. There must be some record of where, when and how many of these weapons were distributed for issue after they arrived in Britain. Since many were unmarked should we suppose the serial numbers were recorded by the BPC and other relevant departments as they were distributed for field issue?

I am well aware that the Brits were copious record keepers. There must also be some record of accounting for the surplused small arms after the war, which might be a better place to start investigating? Working end to beginning, so to speak.

In the 1950s "Guns" magazine found on the web, there are regular advertisements of 38 S&W revolvers for sale. They look just like these. Priced less than $30. International Firearms Co of Quebec, then Vermont, are the sellers I noticed.

I bought mine for the inflated price of $125

Man, you stole that one!

Well, I finally got round to pick up the second BSR from the South Africa shipment(pictured at bottom) and found it needing some TLC. Got her up and running, replaced the plastic magnas with the correct stocks. Both of these have been rode hard and put away wet, but have perfect minty bores and cylinder chambers. The actions are excellent too.


I found a nice British Military Police revolver and whistle lanyard to go along with the British Pattern 37 Lanyard. Now I'm looking for the correct holsters. I had one the same as pictured in Linda's photo, but thought that was for the tanker model Enfield revolver, with spurless hammer? I'm wondering which of the Brit WWII holsters may have been used for these, if you have an idea, let me know?

Lefty,

Nice companion piece to your other S.A. shipped BSR!

I think you're right about the canvas holsters... I've seen some of the "drop leg" styles that have been cut and shortened for use by the tankers.

Here's a pic of a Canadian holster and belt. The S.A. BSR I have fits nicely!

Linda

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda;

The Canadian holster looks pretty identical to the U.S. Victory holster I have in my collection. Are there any Canadian makers marks or military acceptance marks?

The belt, and particularly the buckle, are very cool!

After carefully examining the new addition BSR, I note just one difference between the two. The newly acquired specimen (which is actually older by serial) has the "Reg. US Pat. Off." stamp on the hammer. The other BSR does not. That stamp is on a few of my 1905 Target model hammers, that are in the 640,000 serial range. Comparing the two hammers, the targets and the BSR, I note the BSR has finer checkering/crosshatching on the spur. The targets have larger and deeper crosshatching. Just a minor difference, but I was wondering if your BSR SA had the patent mark on the hammer?

Hamden;

Did you find the lanyard swivel yet? Numrich Gun Parts Co. has them (reproductions) listed for about $15 and the lanyard swivel pin for about $1.50 on their website.

This particular "K-200 British Service Revolver" V745416 (S&W.38/200)was shipped in January 1945. It was later converted to .38 Special S&W by "Cogswell & Harrison LTD" of London prior to return to the US market for resale. (note the semi-removal of the initially rough finish near the recoil shield and the barrel/ frame joint)

pre64;

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying this Victory was originally .38 Special when shipped in 1945 and was later converted by C&H to .38 S&W (.38/200) for resale in the U.S.? Did you have it lettered to learn it's shipped chambering? Typically, it's the other way around, .38 S&W converted to .38 Special for the U.S. market? Unless I'm misunderstanding your comments, this makes it an unusual example.

Mr. Flatfoot...Thanks for the correction of my typo....
Yes it was originally a ".38/200" then converted to S&W .38 S&W Special...

I thought that was probably a typo. Nice lanyard pictured with your revolver, what can you tell me about it? Years ago, one of my relatives had 2 Cogswell & Harrison modified Colt Army Special's. They were engraved like yours except it was on a small brass plate riveted into the frame. They looked pretty cool, but shot very poorly.

/QUOTE]Hello Again, Peter:
Am I correct in assuming that all four of these revolvers mentioned are in .38 S&W with 4" barrels?
Charlie Flick[/QUOTE]

Sorry Charlie and all, but I have not been near this forum for a while. Yes, they are all 4' 38 S&W.

However, yesterday I saw a 6" S/N 679920 in 38 Special with British Inspection stamp (but no other markings). It must be one of the first S&Ws that Britain purchased in a hurry around May 1940. Skennerton in "British Small Arms of World War 2" records 1139 6" ".38 S&W Military Police" from Britsh contract records. Just one problem with this gun I am afraid - someone drilled out the first part of the chambers to take the 38 S&W !@#$%^.

Peter

One day Charlie! However, right now I can certainly let you have some data for the database.

Peter

[/QUOTE]
I was aware of the July 8, 1940 shipment. I believe Peter had posted info sometime ago on a gun from that shipment - 692085, UDF968, - shipment arrived in S.A. sometime in August of 1940. Linda[/QUOTE]

Did I?? I do not have either of these numbers in my database, but then my record keeping could be better!

Peter

Pre-64,

Very nice looking revolver.. both the grips and the case hardening on the hammer look fantastic!

Your last photo shows the butt of the gun... the imprint on the wood looks similiar to Chinese characters. Do you know what they are?

Thanks

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245