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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 03-30-2009, 06:23 AM
DGNY DGNY is offline
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Default 44 Associates' .44 Special Data?

In a recent thread in S&W 1961 to 1980, "Which first, egg or hen...?", ST Bryson was good enough to post an image of the cover of a 44 ASSOCIATES' .44 Special data report atop an image of a George Rice article, "'Magnumizing' the .44" [Special].

Is is possible that the contents could be excerpted, posted at length or made available in PDF for those who would like to see the data or article?

Many of us have wondered for years re this data as historic information and the article looks promising as well.

Thanks to anyone, including ST Bryson, who might have and be willing to share the content. I understand and respect that there may be reasons that would cause one to decline to disseminate the info.

[Posted here, as it seems to go beyond Reloading as a topic.]

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:23 AM
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Duplicate post removed

Last edited by handejector; 12-21-2011 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:57 AM
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Anyone have a way of responding with info?

Many thanks,

Dyson
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:20 AM
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DGNY, I think the time period your talking about would be more 1930-40. If I recall correctly it was a small group with EK somewhat as the center. I believe I read that they also had a small newsletter that circulated among the group. I think this is correct but hopefully if it's not someone will jump in to set it straight.

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Old 03-31-2009, 08:44 AM
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Thanks. I hope others who have shareable access to the information in question will join this discussion.

My comment re the timing is related to the current [and seemingly ageless] popularity of the .44 Special cartridge. Also to the possible relevance of the findings of the 44 Associates to modern discussions. Conversely, an airing of the old findings might set to rest the hope that they had discovered something of use to us.

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Dyson
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:47 AM
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I have sent an email to Steve, per his kind offer, and yet hope others may join in a discussion here, as well.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stbryson View Post
There doesn't seem to be much interest in posting here on the topic of the .44 Associates.
Mr. Bryson - I may have missed your original post. It sounds like someone offended you. If that's the case, I'm sorry to hear that, but if you have anything on the "44 Associates" and you are reluctant to post it here, I would be interested privately. (EM address in my profile.)

I imagine much of the loading data is dated, but I have always been more interested in the background info, anyway.
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:38 PM
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I had suggested the same thing to a "famous" handgunner who has a copy about ten years ago, but he didn't seem have much interest.

E-mail sent to Steve.

Good shooting!
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:24 PM
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I read of this many years ago, like over 40. I belive it was a group seems like kentucky, that exchanged loads, shooting info and testing many combo loads way back. I read it 40 years ago, and the article was about the group way before that!
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:46 AM
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Skelton described them as a group of handloaders and enthusiasts that exchanged loading data and jokes about .357 Magnum shooters.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:10 AM
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Perhaps at long last, some of the findings, opinions and ruminations of the 44 Associates will be in the light of day! For example - what sorts of lead bullets did they prefer? Did they ever reach the storied 1200 fps velocity without fragmenting their revolvers?

Hope so!

Cheers,

Dyson
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:04 PM
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Steve,

If you decide not to post something here, I would also like to be copied at the address in my profile.

Do you know if any of the info is contained in the SWCA Journals? I just received all 4 volumes and have yet to make much of a dent in reading them.

Best Regards,

Jerry
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:53 PM
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Steve,
I'm interested as well. I just got my 44 Special project back from Bowen and will start loading in earnest for it soon. Sounds like this source will help me out. Thanks.
Keith
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:42 PM
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I'd be interested as well.
Thanks in advance.

Pete
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:55 PM
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I have asked on several occasions if anyone had the data and newsletters available from the old .44 Associates ! To date nobody has come forward with any of the printed material ! I would doubt if it is copyrighted but may be wrong since I have never been able to see any issues.

If people have material I would be willing to scan, clean up prints, and make them available.

Jerry
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:29 PM
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I'd like to have a copy.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:19 PM
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Seems like there would be some interest in a run of these, at a cost that would defray the expenses. I wonder what some outfit like Kinko's would want to print some off?

Some disclaimer as to liability and a note to the effect that it was being published as a historical reference would seem to take care of the fringe element. A lot of it would be very similar to Keith's writings from the same time period, and those are still in circulation.

I'd like one in my archives...
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:28 AM
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Many thanks to stbryson, GLL and others who have expressed interest in sharing this knowledge.

Once again, this Forum demonstrates its collaborative powers.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:55 AM
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Dyson:

I unfortunately have nothing to share but would love to help put as much of the old info together as possible !

I am retired, love the .44 Special, and have a very nice scanner !

Jerry

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Old 04-02-2009, 04:29 PM
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There seems to be quite a bit of interest in the 44 Associates' data. It will be a real breakthrough to have it to read and digest.

Let's hope Steve or someone with a copy can make it happen. And that it can be set forth here, or in copies. We will all be greatly in his/their debt.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:43 PM
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I would be very interested in a copy of their works.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:47 PM
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I vertainly would be interested also in any info on the 44 special and it's loads. I load for the 44 and it is, indeed, my favorite round
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2009, 05:00 PM
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If y'all can make it happen, count me in!
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprher View Post
I just got my 44 Special project back from Bowen and will start loading in earnest for it soon.
Don't forget to check out Lil-Gun for loading the 44spl.
I use it in my 624 6.5" and it is great!
I'm just now converting a H&R 12ga to 44spl. and will feed it the same, Lil-Gun and a 250gr H/C Keith.
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:26 AM
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Thanks to Steve Bryson for sharing these reference source data and for the notes on load pressure, etc. They are very interesting to me and must have taken him considerable time to assemble and enter for posting here.

I personally do not have such information available and, without in any way wishing to limit Steve's ongoing contributions, would ask if any others would care to join in -- to locate, scan and disseminate, or better yet, post [assuming no copyright issues] such information here. [Has anyone current access to the cited American Rifleman issues?]

Appreciation again to Steve for his fine leadership to date, and to everyone who has made suggestions and offers of help.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:00 PM
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I donated a nearly complete collection of the Rifleman from 1942 to 1970 to the Hudson (NH)Rod and Gun Club in the late 1980s. Don't know if they still have them or not.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:55 AM
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While we stand by for possible further data, GLL, that is one handsome shootin' iron you pictured. Is it a 24, a 24-3 or ?.

Thanks and looking forward to hearing more from Steve and others with .44 Special data,

Dyson
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Old 04-04-2009, 01:15 PM
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Steve - we thank you for your generous posting of the article above. I am impressed by the vision of the author [witness the minutiae concerning the Triple-Lock system], and the care taken in writing it those many years ago.

With appreciation,

Dyson
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  #29  
Old 04-04-2009, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stbryson View Post
Hello,

From "The Arms Chest" (classifieds) section of the December 1945 issue of "American Rifleman":

".44 Special loads, exhaustive tabulation of 650 tested handloads
for .44 Special, "Handgun Cartridge #1", limited, numbered edition,
$1.00 postpaid. 44 Associates, Auburn, Mass."



"American Rifleman" articles of interest to .44 Special fans:

August, 1944 "The S&W Triple-Lock and the .44 Special Cartridge", by Gordon C. Boser

February, 1949 "'Magnumizing' the .44", by George W. Rice

February, 1953 ".44 Dynamite", by John W. Zlatich

May, 1953 "Expanding Bullets for the .44", by John W. Zlatich

October, 1953 ".44 Special vs. .357 Magnum", by John W. Zlatich

In Zlatich's first article, he shows several loads in the 1,200 - 1,500 fps range, and talks about muzzle velocities up to 1,600 fps.

The "American Rifleman" articles are much easier to locate than the 44 Associates document. I believe that NRA members can obtain photocopies of old articles through Member Services.
Years ago at an estate auction I bought boxes of American Rifleman magazines from the 40's, 50's & 60's.

I'll pull them out of storage to see how many of these articles I have.

I'll scan them to a PDF document to share them with my .44 Special brethren... will let everyone know when I have something to send out.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:52 PM
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Steve:

Thank you very much for posting the article !

Dyson:

The .44 HE is a 4th Model Target (Model of 1950 Target).

If anyone in the Los Angeles area has copies of the articles Conrad listed that I could borrow for a day I will scan them at VERY high resolution and make them available as pdf files for educational purposes.

CAn anyone supply a Xerox copy of "44 ASSOCIATES' .44 Special data report" ? If so I would make a good scan of it as well !

Jerry
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:58 PM
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GLL - of course - a PRE-24 [just kidding...] Beautiful revolver.

Gunhacker - thanks for doing the look-see at your stash of magazines.

And thanks again to Steve. Splendid work.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-04-2009, 10:43 PM
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Ok folks... I was only able to locate and scan the 3 1953 American Rifleman articles. The files are large due to the scan being hi res.

The files are on a file hosting website... here's the updated link:

44_Special_Articles

I also have a complete collection of Handloader Magazine from Issue#1 to current, I'll scan and have the articles posted on the same file hosting website.

I remember reading somewhere that any loading data from the 44 Associates really needs to be taken with a grain of salt and a pound of caution.

Remember... the powder such as Hercules 2400 (now Alliant) used back then is a different make up from what's produced today. Pressure characteristics will be different, so you have to gradually work upwards while watching for excessive pressure signs.

Oh.. and here's what I shoot .44 Spl out of:

24-3 Lew Horton:


5 screw Pre 24:
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Last edited by Gunhacker; 12-24-2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason: New link to articles
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunhacker View Post
Ok folks... I was only able to locate and scan the 3 1953 American Rifleman articles. The files are large due to the scan being hi res.

I've uploaded them to a file hosting website... here's the links:

Feb 1953 American Rifleman

May 1953 American Rifleman

Oct 1953 American Rifleman
Hi Conrad:

Thanks for scanning and sharing the articles.

Unfortunately, the downloaded files are in ".exe" format, which don't work on my Mac ;(

Any chance these could be made available in pdf or jpg?

Regards

Ron
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Old 04-05-2009, 01:09 PM
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Hi, Conrad - I, too, am having issues downloading the articles.

Any chance of a different format-for Windows XP.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:34 PM
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Well folks for whatever resaon the file hosting website is no longer allowing downloads... so I'm looking for another site.

Update: I've tried using 3 different file hosting websites I've joined and I can't get the links to work in my post... anyone have any experience doing this kind of thing? I'm stumped.
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:43 PM
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I've always had an interest in the ".44 Associates" and would like to see their information.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:21 PM
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This is truly public service of the highest order! Mother Teresa would be proud!
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:17 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, and I usually am, Mother Teresa was a member of the 44 Associates.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:09 AM
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Gunhacker - thanks for trying the other hosting sites. These articles and materials are valuable contributions to our collective knowledge.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:59 AM
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I belonged to a later group, similar to the ".44 Associates", but it included all calibers. It was called the American Reloaders Association, sponsored by Gun World Magazine. The mimeographed pages were called the A.R.A. Bulletin. It was active from September,1963 to about the end of 1967, or perhaps longer. Some of the former members of the .44 Associates were active in this one. Some big names were Dean Grennell, Homer Powley, P.O. Ackley, Jim Horton, Dan Cotterman, etc. Elmer Keith and others also wrote articles for the Bulletin.

I still have copies of about 50 of the bulletins, but the paper was cheap, and the type is slightly blurry. It was like putting all the famous handloading writers together into one publication, as well as the individual members' contributions. I think it petered out about 1968 or so.
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:22 AM
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Al:

If there are some interesting articles on the .44 Special in the A.R.A. bulletin by members such as Keith would you be wiling to send me Xerox copies. I can have them retyped to be more legible and make pdf or jpg files available.

Jerry
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:25 AM
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IS there ANYONE willing to send me copies of the .44 Associates newsletters or the numbered data
publication ???

I will gladly spend the time it takes to clean them up , scan them at high resolution,and make them available as jpg files !

Jerry
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunhacker View Post
Well folks for whatever resaon the file hosting website is no longer allowing downloads... so I'm looking for another site.

Update: I've tried using 3 different file hosting websites I've joined and I can't get the links to work in my post... anyone have any experience doing this kind of thing? I'm stumped.
Ok... let's try this one more time:

http://hosted.filefront.com/gunhacker

This should bring up a webpage with the files list and download buttons to the right.

UPDATE: The files are now on a host server courtesy of member Matt G: 44_Special_Articles
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SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

Last edited by Gunhacker; 12-24-2011 at 12:39 PM. Reason: New link to articles
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:13 AM
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Conrad:

Thank you VERY much for posting the HIGH RESOLUTION pdf files of these articles !

OUTSTANDING work !

This is a great start. Now we need to expand and continue the effort !

Anyone else have offerings?

Jerry
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:55 PM
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Many thanks, Gunhacker, for this download offering. The resolution is very good.

Of the list of materials Steve Bryson detailed:
* he has posted the August 1944 American Rifleman article re Triple Lock and the 44 Special [and also "High Pressure and Duplex Loads", with two further pieces referencing the 44 Associates].

* Gunhacker has linked the Feb, May and Oct 1953 American Rifleman articles.

* Of the items Steve mentioned, this leaves just the 1949 American Rifleman article and the 44 Associates booklet to be found and made available, if we have a willing source.

* Also, if ANYONE HAS any further references to share, such as those requested by GLL, or any others, of relevance, please do step forward.

Thanks again to all who are participating in this history of the .44 Special as loaded by its devoted adherents, over its 102 years, with emphasis on the 44 Associates.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:18 PM
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This image is posted to show the resolution of Conrad's scans that he provided in the hosted pdf files ! (Photoshop modified to grayscale to shrink the file size)

GREAT JOB !

Jerry

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Old 04-12-2009, 03:48 PM
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Hey Guys... lost my broadband internet connection yesterday afternoon before I could upload the latest offerings, it just came back on about 1/2 hr ago.

I added articles from Handloader Magazine which I have from issue#1 (1966) to current.

The Oct 1996 article in particular is a great read about the .44 Spl looking back. .

I also have the Annual Gun Digest books from #1(1944) to #60(2006), so if anyone knows of a particular article in one of those issues, let me know and I'll try to scan and upload it.

And I also have Shooting Times Magazine from Issue #1 (1961 I think) to the year that Skeeter Skelton passed away. Same as above, if there's an article of interest about the .44 Spl let me know.

One other comment about the loads that the .44 associates published and other vintage data, remember... the cases used were the old style balloon head ones that held a tad bit more powder that today's modern cases with the solid case heads... so again, gotta be careful with the old reloading data and not go right to the charge listed... start at 80% and work upwards looking for signs of excessive pressure.

Hey Jerry... should I be scanning these things in greyscale if they are black & white articles? I'm kind of new at this so I've been using the scanner software wizard and taking the default settings.

===========================================

UPDATE 12/24/11 : The articles are now on file hosting site graciously provided by member Matt G: 44_Special_Articles
==========================================
..
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  #48  
Old 04-13-2009, 11:03 AM
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I would like to thank you Jerry and all who worked on these files.
Excellent reading and reference material.
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:51 PM
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We thank you, Gunhacker, for your contributions. Can anyone step forward with the 44 Associates booklet?

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:14 AM
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Conrad:

Thank you for the latest additions to your downloadable files !

VERY well done !

Jerry
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