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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 06-04-2009, 03:08 PM
WHEELGUNS WHEELGUNS is offline
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Hello All,

My USNCPC M&P gets a few rounds shot through it yearly during the 2nd week of June to commemorate D-Day June 1945 and cleaned before goin back into storage. However after owning for nearly 30 years now and seeing as it is almost 70 years old and still in great shape I was wondering if perhaps its getting both too old and too valuable to shoot, even just once a year.

I have good photo's ( but don't see how to post them yet ) for the experts to evaluate and offer an idea as to how much of a collector's or shooter's piece she may be and what it may be worth at this point in time.

It is completely original 4 inch barrel unit with all matching numbers, British proofs and nice finish, overall it is in really good condition considering its age and the fact that it did see service use during WWII and was used as a duty gun back in New Jersey for over 30 years thereater.

Back in 1982 I corresponed with Roy Jinks and on S&W letter head he sent a two page response that was canned for "British Commonwealth" models with factory data on my piece in the last two paragraphs stating it was shipped 28th May 1941 to the Washington D.C. Navy Yard. In those paragraphs he also stated that U.S.N.C.P.C. stood for "United States Navy Coastal Patrol Corps., an organization which came into being on 20 March 1941 at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii", which contridicts what is stated about U.S.N.C.P.C. in print elsewhere that I have since read.

Thanks in advance for any commments, I will send photos here when I can figure out how or directly to anyone who requests them.

/s/ Steve
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2009, 03:30 PM
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I have never heard of the USNCPC so I have no idea if a gun shipped to them is worth more than other M&Ps made during WW II.

If it was shipped to a coastal patrol group in Hawaii why does it have British proof marks?

Is USNCPC for United States Navy Civilian Police Corps? Forum member Lee Barner posted a thread about having such a gun.

Here's what somebody else offered about these models.

"USNCPC marked: 3,000 handguns in the 748000-760000 serial number range; U.S. Naval Civilian Police Corps abbreviation on the backstrap, worth double to triple standard values. Most shipped in 1941."

Still not sure why this gun would have British proofs.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:33 PM
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Welcome to the forum. To post pictures you will need an account with an image hosting service like Photobucket. It's really pretty simple. Here's a link the the how-to thread.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...0103904/m/3011047303

I have '30s era revolvers that I don't mind shooting at all. If you take care of them, they don't deteriorate.

David W.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:00 PM
ordnanceguy ordnanceguy is offline
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Hi Steve:

First, welcome to the Forum.

Second, back in 1982 neither Roy Jinks nor anyone else in the collecting community had any idea what the acronym USNCPC stood for. The factory records did not have this information so Roy can't really be faulted on that.

Author/researcher Charlie Pate, a member of the S&WCA, finally cracked the code about ten years ago and discovered in the National Archives that USNCPC meant the US Navy Civilian Police Corps, as mentioned by Saxonpig above. Charlie Pate has fully described these guns in his US Secondary Handguns book and in an article in Man at Arms magazine as well.

My collaborator LWCmdr45 and I have recorded quite a few of the USNCPC guns in the Pre-Victory and Victory Model Database. I would like to include your's as well on a confidential basis. Could you please post it here, or email it to me at [email protected], and remove the NOSPAM, of course.

Thanks in advance.

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Charlie Flick
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:26 PM
WHEELGUNS WHEELGUNS is offline
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Yes, that is the same thing that I read since regarding the meanming USNCPC, I came across that last year in a G&A Surplus Firearms publication that had an article on Victory models that caught my eye on the news stand.

It is my assumption that it made it over to the UK as a Lend Lease piece before coming back to the states.

What is interesting is that as it was made for the Navy it is in .38 SPECIAL and so marked on the barrel by
S&W and then again by the British on the crane side as having passed proof testing, which using text
instead showing the photo I can best represent as:

.38 SPECIAL I* 150"

then under that:

BNP 4 TONS PER [] "

/s/ Steve

Quote:
Originally posted by SaxonPig:
I have never heard of the USNCPC so I have no idea if a gun shipped to them is worth more than other M&Ps made during WW II.

If it was shipped to a coastal patrol group in Hawaii why does it have British proof marks?

Is USNCPC for United States Navy Civilian Police Corps? Forum member Lee Barner posted a thread about having such a gun.

Here's what somebody else offered about these models.

"USNCPC marked: 3,000 handguns in the 748000-760000 serial number range; U.S. Naval Civilian Police Corps abbreviation on the backstrap, worth double to triple standard values. Most shipped in 1941."

Still not sure why this gun would have British proofs.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:30 PM
WHEELGUNS WHEELGUNS is offline
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Hi David,

Thanks for the welcome aboard.

I will get that setup and see about posting some photos.

This M&P is the oldest S&W revolver I own, next up is an M-29, M-15, M-28 and M-18 in order of age, which are all much younger than my 50 years.

Thanks.

/s/ Steve

Quote:
Originally posted by DCWilson:
Welcome to the forum. To post pictures you will need an account with an image hosting service like Photobucket. It's really pretty simple. Here's a link the the how-to thread.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...0103904/m/3011047303

I have '30s era revolvers that I don't mind shooting at all. If you take care of them, they don't deteriorate.

David W.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:36 PM
WHEELGUNS WHEELGUNS is offline
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Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the welcome.

Well that explains the issue with USNCPC in the letter from Roy.

I will be glad to provide you any details you would like to have. The serial number is 757287, its a 4 inch barreled .38 SPECIAL and commercial bright blue finish mentioned in the letter. I can scan the letter if you would like a copy?

/s/ Steve

Quote:
Originally posted by ordnanceguy:
Hi Steve:

First, welcome to the Forum.

Second, back in 1982 neither Roy Jinks nor anyone else in the collecting community had any idea what the acronym USNCPC stood for. The factory records did not have this information so Roy can't really be faulted on that.

Author/researcher Charlie Pate, a member of the S&WCA, finally cracked the code about ten years ago and discovered in the National Archives that USNCPC meant the US Navy Civilian Police Corps, as mentioned by Saxonpig above. Charlie Pate has fully described these guns in his US Secondary Handguns book and in an article in Man at Arms magazine as well.

My collaborator LWCmdr45 and I have recorded quite a few of the USNCPC guns in the Pre-Victory and Victory Model Database. I would like to include your's as well on a confidential basis. Could you please post it here, or email it to me at [email protected], and remove the NOSPAM, of course.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:41 PM
WHEELGUNS WHEELGUNS is offline
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Hello All,

Let's see if some photos make it through to the forum now.

/s/ Steve

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  #9  
Old 06-04-2009, 04:53 PM
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Hello All,

The photos are at:

http://s719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/WHEELGUNS/

Perhaps they will show up here below later?

/s/ Steve

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  #10  
Old 06-04-2009, 06:34 PM
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My 1910 shipped .44 Special Triple Lock shoots very good, and I try to shoot it often.

Here are a few of your pics:











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  #11  
Old 06-04-2009, 07:08 PM
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Wheelgun:

Thanks very much for sharing the complete serial number on your very nice looking USNCPC pre-Victory. You might be interested to know that your revolver is the 70th USNCPC serial that we have recorded in the Database. A good chunk of them went to the British at some point. They remain very scarce today.

BTW, it appears that the markings on your revolver are British post-war commercial proof marks.

Congratulations on a fine revolver.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:04 PM
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Wheelgun I have the same revolver with lanyard loop and no British markings. It's not stamped
USNCPC but serial # 757352. Frank Jr.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:22 PM
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i'll chime in with 752554 has the usncpc & british proofmarks stamped in it
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:59 PM
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Wheelman:

Thanks for posting your serial number for your USNCPC gun. It is the 71st example we have recorded in the Database. There were only a total of 3000 of these guns shipped in 1941 to the Navy, and we can assume that the attrition level for these pre-Pearl Harbor guns must have been pretty high.

Frank, I am including your pre-Victory in the Database as well. Thanks for the info.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:00 PM
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That early 1982 letter from Roy Jinks is probably worth as much as the gun! Some of Roy's early letters are priceless! I have one for a Victory model that says in the canned portion of the letter that 8,000 Victory Models were shipped to Austria! I'm still looking for one of the Austrian Victory Models! Also, letters on certain New Model No. 3s that were recorded in the shipping ledgers as being shipped to "Rev. Smith, or Rev. Jones, etc." Roy said were shipped to a bunch of "Pistol Packin' Bible Thumpers" until we figured out that Rev. stood for "Revenue Cutter" (This is not a knock at Roy, we are very old friends, but I still get a chuckle everytime I think about it.)
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:49 AM
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Hi Bob:

Thanks very much for your contribution of information to the pre-Victory and Victory Model Database.

Regards,
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Old 06-08-2009, 02:17 PM
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Referring to the Jinks letter regarding shipment of Victory Models to Austria I have had two Victory models with Austrian police markings. I will look and see if I can find the serial numbers in the dusty archives.
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:13 PM
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The Austrian shipped guns were for the Austrian police after the war was over. We shipped them because the police were carrying mostly 32 and even some 25 caliber semis that were considered not useful for police service. So we sent them Smiths, the police were not very grateful, they dumped the quality wheelguns ASAP and took up with any old semi auto they could find-they just were not used to revolvers. The person who initially decided that they needed new guns was alleged to have been General Patton, and given his gun interest just might have been true. The same situation happened with the German police after the war was over, they just could not abide revolvers and found any old semi auto to take the place of S&W revolvers.
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:56 PM
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Hi Bob:

Yes, we do have 752684 in the Database already. We have the numbers on 35 of the 36 guns that went to Bethlehem Steel. We must have missed one somewhere. Would you be able to send me a scan of the letter from Bethlehem Steel?

Thanks very much for the post and information. Every bit helps the Database.

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Old 07-24-2009, 01:48 AM
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Gentlemen,

I just recieved a U.S.N.C.P.C. gun today. I would appreciate all thoughts & coments.

I found it listed as a M48-4 on AA #9164393.

All #s match. The finish is fading to patina but otherwise it seems to be in fine shape mechanically.

Jim
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:23 PM
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Is the serial number 756626?

Charlie
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:04 AM
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Sir,

Ser# is 756266
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN View Post
The Austrian shipped guns were for the Austrian police after the war was over. We shipped them because the police were carrying mostly 32 and even some 25 caliber semis that were considered not useful for police service. So we sent them Smiths, the police were not very grateful, they dumped the quality wheelguns ASAP and took up with any old semi auto they could find-they just were not used to revolvers. The person who initially decided that they needed new guns was alleged to have been General Patton, and given his gun interest just might have been true. The same situation happened with the German police after the war was over, they just could not abide revolvers and found any old semi auto to take the place of S&W revolvers.
I don't know about Aussie Police but I have a Aussie military marked Victoty and holster, so they were sent some.

popgun

Last edited by popgun; 07-25-2009 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 07-25-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cussedemgun View Post
Sir, Ser# is 756266
Thank you, cussedemgun.

From the Pre-Victory and Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I maintain, I can tell you that your revolver was likely shipped from the factory in the March, 1941 time frame.

You got a bargain on it because of the seller's error in mis-describing it. The USNCPC guns are very scarce in any condition.

We appreciate your data contribution for the Database.

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Old 12-09-2010, 11:30 PM
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Have s&w model 10, 38spl, 4"bbl, backstrap marked USNCPC, serial 758298, british proofs, lanyard swivel on butt. Was glad to find out what the letters mean, got gun in 60s , wrote the gun report about the letters, was told to send a pic! Also have K22 marked RCMP Aux, beautiful gun, cant beat s and w for quality. Mike Gillespie
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:41 PM
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I have one of these usncpc 38 spls too, same as photo except grips plain. serial 758298
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:52 PM
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This is my first time here.
I too have a 1905 "38 S&W Special Ctg". Marked U.S.N.C.P.C on the back strap.
And it has the same British "Proof Marks" as yours. There is a stamp on the butt (only half the stamp shows - bad stamp job) A circle with the word AID in it along with part of another word that I can't decipher.
So it must have been part of the "Lend Lease" shipment to Britain. I purchased it about ten years ago from a dealer who knew the owner who had inheirted it from his father who was a Policeman in Cuba. So this piece has been around. The finish on mine is not as nice as yours.

Last edited by BEACH350Z44; 01-26-2011 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:02 PM
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Beach:

First, welcome to the Forum.

Second, the marking in the circle that you refer to is "AID/RFI". Send me a PM or an email at [email protected] (and leave out the NOSPAM) and I can fill you in on that marking and the ship date, if you can give me the complete serial number for inclusion in the Victory Model Database.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:00 AM
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Wink 1905 USNCPC

Also: My 1905 USNCPC is missing the lanyard ring. The SN is 759455.
I see these were shipped in lots of 300 duringing 1941.
Does anyone know where this piece may have been shipped too?
Thanks,
Dave
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:56 AM
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Charlie here's another one you can add. Serial# 756279 sold at Joe Salter's last week. 4 inch, blue, lanyard ring, miss matched but correct grips. Photo is still up in his new arrival section. Take Care
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:18 PM
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Smile Another USNCPC

Charlie,
I have USNCPC 748606. Came from Charie Pate. It is about 80% thinning blue.
John Hopkins
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:21 PM
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Smile Charlie

Charlie Pate. Sorry for the misspelling.
John
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEACH350Z44 View Post
Does anyone know where this piece may have been shipped too? Thanks, Dave
Dave:

Thanks for your email message with the serial. I responded with the likely ship date and destination, and some further details on the marking you asked about and the USNCPC guns in general.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:31 PM
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Bruce:

Thanks for the tip. LWCmdr45 and I will have that info added to the Victory Database. We now have quite a few of the USNCPC guns in the Database.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw357nm View Post
Charlie,
I have USNCPC 748606. Came from Charlie Pate. It is about 80% thinning blue. John Hopkins
Thank you, John. We appreciate your assistance.
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:45 PM
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Default USNCPC .38 spcl

I have recently inherited an old S&W .38 from a family friend. It is in fairly good condition with the bluing only begining to wear off of the extractor. It contains the USNCPC on the grip and it has the lanyard loop, it does not however contain any British proof markings. The Serial number is 7488##. I was hoping you may be able to give me a little more history on this gun.
Thank you
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  #37  
Old 11-01-2011, 01:37 AM
geoff hayes geoff hayes is offline
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Talking another for the list

i wandered onto this post while looking for info about a victory model i just picked up. for what its worth its serial #619862 looks like it was made in 44?

anyway. i too have a u.s.n.c.p.c. gun out in the vault so i went and got it. its serial #748863. it has no brit markings and is in a solid 90% cond. if it werent for a few light scratches from years of laying around it would be 95% there is absolutely no wear in the bluing. only bummer is when i got it the lanyard loop was missing so i picked up one at a gun show which is parked. here's the kicker....bought it at a local shop where they sell a ton of black guns covered in rails and plastic. guy knew it wasnt a victory mod but really didn't know much about it (neither did i). not being the kind of stuff they specialize in i bought it for $175
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  #38  
Old 11-01-2011, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff hayes View Post
i wandered onto this post while looking for info about a victory model i just picked up. for what its worth its serial #619862 looks like it was made in 44?

anyway. i too have a u.s.n.c.p.c. gun out in the vault so i went and got it. its serial #748863. it has no brit markings and is in a solid 90% cond. if it werent for a few light scratches from years of laying around it would be 95% there is absolutely no wear in the bluing. only bummer is when i got it the lanyard loop was missing so i picked up one at a gun show which is parked. here's the kicker....bought it at a local shop where they sell a ton of black guns covered in rails and plastic. guy knew it wasnt a victory mod but really didn't know much about it (neither did i). not being the kind of stuff they specialize in i bought it for $175

THIEF!! Just kiddin' ya' and Welcome to the forum!
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by geoff hayes View Post
only bummer is when i got it the lanyard loop was missing so i picked up one at a gun show which is parked.
Plenty of those still out there with the original case hardened finish, so keep looking. Sounds like a gun that deserves the absolutely correct part.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN
The Austrian shipped guns were for the Austrian police after the war was over. We shipped them because the police were carrying mostly 32 and even some 25 caliber semis that were considered not useful for police service. So we sent them Smiths, the police were not very grateful, they dumped the quality wheelguns ASAP and took up with any old semi auto they could find-they just were not used to revolvers. The person who initially decided that they needed new guns was alleged to have been General Patton, and given his gun interest just might have been true. The same situation happened with the German police after the war was over, they just could not abide revolvers and found any old semi auto to take the place of S&W revolvers.


I don't know about Aussie Police but I have a Aussie military marked Victoty and holster, so they were sent some.



popgun





Popgun-

Read more carefully or get some geography lessons!

Certainly, Australian military and, also over the years, police, have used many S&W .38 revolvers.

But the guns referred to were for AUSTRIA, a country next to Germany, and halfway around the world from AUSTRALIA and speaking a different language.

You are not the only one to make this error. I tried a few years ago to send a couple of books to a friend in Austria, and the postal clerk told me that there were no post offices in AUSTRALIA. This idiot (I'd better not describe her further) had never heard of Austria, and was badly informed about Australia. Both are highly developed nations and both have excellent postal services! Austria also has great concert halls and is reknowned for its strudel and Viennese coffee. There! But she had not heard of a city called Vienna, either, just the little sausages. She had heard of Arnold Schwarzenegger, but had no idea that he was from Austria.

I finally got her to check some references and got my books mailed. My friend got them about a week later.

I swear that this is a true story. It's just one reason why I avoid the USPS when I can. And most other US Govt. agencies...

BTW, your AUSTRALIAN S&W is probably chambered for the .38 S&W regular ctg., not .38 Special. Those were often referred to as the .38-200 model. They most often had five-inch barrels, but those made before April, 1942 were also furnished with four and six-inch barrels.

Now, after the war, both US and British authorities furnished extra revolvers to German and Austrian cops. Both the .38 Special Victory Model and the .38-200 were provided, depending on which army occupied that particular zone of those nations. The Bavarian Rural Police were one agency that received some, as I recall.

BTW, I think they were given these guns after the dust settled, having been disarmed following the German surrender. I don't think their having previously often carried 7.65mm autos was a factor, and certainly doubt that Gen. Patton had anything to do with the issue. If someone can prove that, it would be an interesting historical footnote. (One post here suggested that.)

Last edited by Texas Star; 11-01-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 11-01-2011, 11:22 AM
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Geoff:

First, welcome to the Forum. You will like it here.

Second, thanks for posting the number of your USNCPC example. Sounds like a very nice piece. It likely shipped in the March, 1941 time frame. Does it have the checkered walnut service stocks with the S&W medallions?

On your V619862 can you tell me if it is a 4 inch, .38 Special? Any markings on the left top strap or butt besides the serial? Your guess on the ship date is pretty good. I would estimate shipping in the June-July, 1944 time frame.

HTH.
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:58 PM
geoff hayes geoff hayes is offline
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Default Thanks for the welcome

Thanks for the date on the usncpc gun. It has uncheckered grips and one (right side I think) is numbered to the frame on the under side. I'm going to keep looking for a correct lanyard loop for this gun as it does not match the blued finish. I wanted to put a loop on it though and found a parked one at a gun show for $20.

The victory mod has a "p" on the upper left side of the frame near the corner of the cylinder opening. It is a 4" gun. it does not have an "s" in the serial number. I don't have it in front of me but I think those are the only marks other than serial numbers and frame/crane numbers.
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:21 AM
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Lobo. I do feel like a bit of a thief but better me than someone else right! Honestly though, I will take care of it and love it where as someone else might have bought it for a cheap glove box gun so I look at it like I saved the poor ole girl. We found each other!

I love this gunshop though. It's messy and cluttered and you never know what you'll find if you poke around. I bought a nice war finish webly in 38/200 a few years back for $80 at this shop. It was laying on the desk in the office with a broken latch spring and no one knew where to get parts for it. Numrich had one for $13, and we lived happily ever after.
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  #44  
Old 11-08-2011, 12:30 AM
geoff hayes geoff hayes is offline
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Ordnanceguy, i miss spoke. The usncpc gun has smooth walnut grips but they are NOT numbered on the inside. The victory mod is the one with numbered grips. Are these incorrect grips for the usn gun?
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff hayes View Post
Lobo. I do feel like a bit of a thief but better me than someone else right! Honestly though, I will take care of it and love it where as someone else might have bought it for a cheap glove box gun so I look at it like I saved the poor ole girl. We found each other!
Amen buddy!!
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by geoff hayes View Post
Ordnanceguy, i miss spoke. The usncpc gun has smooth walnut grips but they are NOT numbered on the inside. Are these incorrect grips for the usn gun?
Hi Geoff:

Yes, the proper stocks for the USNCPC guns are the checkered walnut service stocks with small S&W medallions. If original to the gun the inside of the right stock will bear the serial number of the gun.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:31 AM
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Hello everyone... New guy here...
I have one of the pistols described here... #7525xx.
There are no British proof markings or such, BUT the left side of frame is engraved, M.I. - 149.

Any idea what this indicates?

Thanks for a great forum! ~Larry~
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by onembtek View Post
I have one of the pistols described here... #7525xx.
There are no British proof markings or such, BUT the left side of frame is engraved, M.I. - 149. Any idea what this indicates?

O:

Welcome to the Forum.

Yes, I have a good idea what that marking is. Please PM me with the complete serial number and I will get back to you with my thoughts on the marking.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:12 AM
jeff pauley jeff pauley is offline
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Hi to all, I have a U.S.N.C.P.C. revolver # 759098 complete in every detail as described on the forum & would like Charlie to add it to the pre victory & victory model database.As I live in Australia it is a mystery as to how it got here, cheers.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:24 AM
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Now that we all know what USNCPC means, just what was USNCPC? This is about all I could find about it:

"Since early 1940 the U S Navy, as it expanded, was concerned with possible sabotage of naval and other key-military industrial plants. The current issue 1911A1 45acp pistol would be needed for front-line fighting troops. It was decided to create a Navy civilian police corps to provide security for these installations."

There is still a LE agency existing called the "Department of the Navy Police (civilian police)." I don't know if it is the same as the USNCPC.

Last edited by DWalt; 12-19-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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38spl, commercial, extractor, jinks, k22, lock, military, model 10, model 15, model 28, model 29, springfield, victory, walnut, wwii

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