I really don't think so Linda. The quote was a general one and proposed monthly deliveries - No one would propose using the same ship surely? The way I worded the quote was exactly as it was written.

peter

Thanks, Peter

That's what I figured and just wanted to make sure.

Nowadays, it's common to see shipping manifests "F.O.B. NY", etc.
FOB meaning "freight on board", I guess very similar to "free along side ship".

By the way, have you had your South African stamped S&W's lettered by S&W to see what the shipping date and destination was?

Linda

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Where did South African troops fight in WW II? North Africa? Italy?

I've read that some Afrikaaners supported the Germans, and weren't too enthusiastic about fighting them. Those of British descent presumably felt otherwise, and the top Allied pilot in the West was South African. Had over 50 kills when he was shot down. (Marmaduke St.John Pattle) Another famous South African pilot was Adolph "Sailor" Malan, brother of a future Prime Minister, the one who was in power when apartheid began. But both flew in the RAF, not the SAAF.

I know that Prime Minister (Field Marshal) Jan Smuts took the Allied view of the war, despite having fought the British in the Second Boer War of 1899-1902.

A South African tank commander, Maj. Robert Crisp, wrote a fascinating account of his service, "Brazen Chariots". I think I recall him shooting at grouse with his .38, but don't think he mentioned the brand. Crisp was also a famous cricket player, an athlete.


T-Star

ok, I should have done this first... decided to google the term and here's what I found:

Free Along Side (FAS) is an Incoterm. It means that the seller pays for transportation of the goods to the port of shipment. The buyer pays loading costs, freight, insurance, unloading costs and transportation from the port of destination to his factory.

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

SA's WW2 theaters of operation were predominantly North Africa and Italy as you mentioned. Some Afrikaners were sympathetic to Germany pre WW2 but then so were some in the UK and the USA. After the war started the nation came together behind the war effort. There was a lot more pro German sympathy in SA during WW1 than WW2. the SAAF flew in Korea during the Korean war, starting with Mustangs and finishing with F86s, flying alongside the USAF.

Rajah-

Thanks. I knew that and have seen photos of their cheetah -marked planes.

In WW II, they had Spitfires and Hurricanes, and some Boston bombers, I think. Also some P-40's.

The tanks that Crisp commanded were American-built Stuarts. They called them Honeys because a Texan instructor said that, "This tank is a real honey". The name caught on.

T-Star

Rajah didn't mention the East Africa campaign from Jan to May 1941. The Italians had declared war and moved down from their Abyssinia base as far as Kenya. This threatend the Suez Canal/Red Sea passage to India and the Far East, and also the whole of East Africa down to South Africa.

In a quick and very succesful campaign the 1st SA Infantry Division, together with the Gold Coast Brigade, swept up through Italian Somaliland and directly into the south of Abyssinia in a pincer movement. The two arms of the pincer met in Addis Ababa and drove north towards the Italian commander's last stand at Abna Alagi 300 miles away. British and Indian troops from the Sudan approached from the north and within two weeks of the combined attack the mountain stronghold fell.

The Italian's East Africa empire fell with the loss of 30 generals, 170000 troops, 42 tanks and 103 guns. The South Africans casualties were 270, of whom 73 were killed.

Thousands of the 4" S&W 38s were rushed to the South African forces as they were built up in Kenya in preparation for this campaign.

Peter

Peter-

Thanks! I hadn't read the details of that campaign.

Do you know much about a famous novelist and philosopher named Laurens van der Post? He was in the campaign against Mussolini and I think met Haile Selassie.

Later, the Japs captured him in Burma or Malaya and he spent some bad months in a prison camp. Besides his novels, he has a good book on African cooking, including the varities in South Africa.

Marvelous author. Is he still living?

T-Star

OH DEAR! I have found that my data on S/N 721300 was corrupt. The correct UDF number is 10538; the last digit is not stamped as well as the others and I missed it the first time I saw the gun - sorry.

Of the 8 that I have seen from the first 2000 received the lowest S/N is 690876 and the highest 693675.

Peter

Thanks for the update, Peter!

I'm also trying to keep track of the numbers. Mainly just to sort out those with the "U" backstrap stamp and earlier ones without the "U".

Do you show your "1st order" having 2000 or 2200 guns?

You mentioned that the earliest U stamp was U112 (s/n 693,673).

What stamping is on the back of s/n 690,876?

thanks,
Linda

By the way, was s/n 721300 also part of the same 2000 or 2200 gun shipment?

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Sorry Linda, I was a bit slapdash there; the first delivery from the first order, after S&W started again following diversion of the earlier production to the UK, was 2200 revolvers.

UDF number 112 is S/N 693675, and not 693673 as you typed.
S/N 690876 has UDF number 811,

No, S/N 721300 cannot have been in the first shipment because its UDF number is 10538.

Unfortunately no record of the correlation between S/N and UDF number has survived. One can only work from examples seen or mentioned in the archives for some other reason. For example, S/N 697032 UDF 3822 was "found in the possession of a native in Zanzibar" in 1942!

Peter

Hi all, im in south africa, trying to find more info on a revolver of a friend who inherited it from her father when i stumbled accross this topic. Interesting is that what i hold in my hand (38/200 1942/3 victory model, seems to contradic most of the descriptions you guys are chatting about.
This is a 5" victory model, issued to SA police, but it has the austrian police stamp on it. I'd love to share more info and will post pics if anyone is interested?

It could happen. Many .38/200 BSRs were issued to German and Austrian civil police units during the occupation period after WWII. The German and Austrian police eventually disposed of them. Some could have found their way into South African police service. Make up your own story. 5" barrels would have been correct from about 1941 and later for a .38/200.

I assume that it is marked SAP? Does it have any British civilian proof marks on it?

The SAP clearly purchased surplus 5" 38 S&W "Victory" pistols from UK commercial sources around 1960. All the SAP marked guns that I have seen carry Birmingham commercial proofs and I believe that Parker Hale were the source. Quite how an Austrian police marked specimen ended up here is a good question.

Peter

South African pre-Victory 4" .38 S&W











South African pre-Victory 4" .38 S&W

Lobo

As I am sure you know, the grips on your South African 4" S/N 72005 are post-war. The correct ones are on the second gun you show.

However, that second gun is NOT a South African one, despite the factory letter. As you will see in one of my previous posts in this thread, no S&Ws came to this country until August 1940. What you clearly have is one of the May 1940 diversions to Britain. This also explains the lack of the Arrow in U Union Defence Force property mark and the post war Birmingham commercial proof marks. It is of course an interesting piece of early "38/200 S&W" history.

Peter

Yes sir, I'm with you on both accounts

Why were the guns diverted back? Was it due to Dunkirk?

If I got a factory letter on the South African 4" SN # 72005 do you know if it would letter like the 4" SN # 685147

"There was a passenger/cargo ship named "City of New York" that was part of Farrell's American South African Lines. It ran the NY-South Africa route and was sunk by torpedo on it's way from Mozambique to NY in 1942."

Probably not if it was an American flag ship. Due to the Neutrality Act of 1939, American flag ships could not legally carry war material cargo to combatants until 1941. I think the "free alongside ship New York" simply means that the manufacturer would handle shipment to the Port of New York for loading onto whatever foreign flag cargo ship was to be used.

That lower gun is pretty rough. Is it the one "found in the possession of a native in Zanzibar"?

I'm quite sure that a .38-200 is South African if it has a stamp by the cylinder release that reads, "Maak hier oop". ("Open here", from Afrikaans, if I recall a marking on an envelope correctly. Sorry: couldn't resist.

South African- Austrian 38/200

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South African- Austrian 38/200

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image.jpg (131.5 KB, 31 views)

I know this thread is on the older side, but I acquired a revolver yesterday that relates. It is a little on the rough side to include either a broken or bobbed hammer. The final auction price including tax and buyers premium was $240.00.

The serial number is 720750.

The left side of the barrel is marked BNP under a crown stamp followed by .38 .767". Below this is 3 1/2 TONS PER []" (actually the [] is a stamped square box) I assume this is three and one half tons per square inch. Then below this line is SMITH & WESSON.

The patent dates are across the top of the barrel along with SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD, MASS.

The right side of the barrel simply states .38 S&W CTG.

BNP under a crown is also repeated on the frame between the forcing cone and the barrel.

On the frame, behind the hammer (back strap) is stamped with what appears to be 16 B" 745 (hard to read). Below this is a large shaped U with an arrow in the center of it. The arrow is facing upward. Below this is larger numbers 8933.

The cylinder also as BNP under a crown stamp. The serial number is stamped under the barrel and on the bottom of the butt.

A large S&W oval stamp is on the right side of the frame along with the typical MADE IN U.S.A. marking.

The barrel is closer to 3 and 13/16" in length. I measured from the end of the barrel to the cylinder. I understand S&W considers this a 4" barrel.

The grips appear to be original and have the matching serial number stamped on the interior of the right side grip.

On another forum, others consider this a pre-Victory model shipped to South Africa. Some believe the British markings were later added by England and somehow the revolver ended up in England after service in South Africa. I think I will contact Roy Jinks for a letter to see if it adds any clarity.

Attached is a picture which does reflect the poor condition.

Attached Images

Model11.jpg (227.7 KB, 30 views)

These 4" British Service Revolvers were originally ordered for South Africa, but they were diverted to England. The BNP and other proof stamps were added when it was sold into the commercial firearms market in the 1950s, and are not acceptance marks when they were purchased/first issued.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Yes, this was a South African direct purchase from S&W. The Arrow in U was the Union Defence Force property mark, and all the S&W revolvers were given a serial number stamped below the mark on receipt by Pretoria. Deliveries were not in serial number order. My records show S/N 720539 had UDF number 1966 and S/N 720913 had UDF number 11591.

Your revolver clearly ended up in Britain and had to have commercial proofing to be legal for civilian owenership/sale, hence the post 1955 Birmingham proof marks. However, quite how or why it reached Britian is a mystery because the UDF did not dispose of its S&W revolvers until the 1980s. They had been replaced with Star Model BS 9 mm pistols in the mid 1960s, but were held in reserve. Of course some were liberated and others legally disposed of retiring officers, etc.

This is the first example of a UDF marked S&W with British proof that I have come across.

Peter

Thanks for this information, I recall reading none of these 4" revolvers reached South Africa but some obviously did.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Factory Letter made it in a while back for this Union of South Africa Pre-Victory model 38/200. Minus the grips, the gun is all numbers matching. The only British mark I can find is a crown located below the cylinder on the right side of the gun.

Thanks for the additional insight.

I am assuming the correct identification for the revolver is a "Pre-Model 11", although I have heard it called a "Pre-Victory Model". It seems most terms might be accurate as a description but not as a model in and of itself.

There seems to be conflicting views as to whether the revolver was sent to England first and then to South Africa or whether it was shipped to South Africa and then found it way to England. ??

I think I will go ahead and send a "Letter" request off to Mr. Jinks.

I have read here where someone or some group on the Forum maintain a serial number data base? How can I alert them to this serial number and other data on this revolver. I can post other picture if needed to include the back strap South African stamping.

Victory data base

LamarW:

In this instance the better description for collector purposes is "Pre-Victory".

Yes, another collector, LWCmdr45 and I, have maintained the Victory Model Database for many years. Thank you for supplying the data on your revolver.

The pic of the backstrap would be useful.

Also, if you receive a factory letter on your revolver please post it back here for addition to the Database.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Picture of back strap:

Attached Images

Pre-Victory 2.jpg (113.7 KB, 31 views)

About 13000!

Peter