I have been collecting Victory Models for a few years now, and have found six so far, a blued 5" .38 S&W Pre-Victory with British acceptance marks, a 5" .38 S&W British Lend Lease Victory, a 5" .38 S&W Australian Lend Lease Victory, a 4" .38 Special Victory marked "Frankfurt Railway Police", a 4" .38 Special Navy marked Victory, and a 4" .38 Special DSC Victory that shipped to Great Northern Paper Company in Millinocket, Maine in December 1942.

I have in mind to get a New Zealand and South African Victory Model to round out my collection. I understand New Zealand Victories will have "NZ" on the back strap, how do you identify a South African Victory Model? I have heard they will be in .38 S&W Caliber, and may have 4" barrels. Any other identifying marks?

Any other countries I may be missing to round a collection of Victory Models?

Thanks,

Canoeguy

I have been collecting Victory Models for a few years now, and have found six so far, a blued 5" .38 S&W Pre-Victory with British acceptance marks, a 5" .38 S&W British Lend Lease Victory, a 5" .38 S&W Australian Lend Lease Victory, a 4" .38 Special Victory marked "Frankfurt Railway Police", a 4" .38 Special Navy marked Victory, and a 4" .38 Special DSC Victory that shipped to Great Northern Paper Company in Millinocket, Maine in December 1942.

I have in mind to get a New Zealand and South African Victory Model to round out my collection. I understand New Zealand Victories will have "NZ" on the back strap, how do you identify a South African Victory Model? I have heard they will be in .38 S&W Caliber, and may have 4" barrels. Any other identifying marks?

Any other countries I may be missing to round a collection of Victory Models?

Thanks,

Canoeguy

There are two basic categories of the S&W .38-200 British Service Revolver used by the South African forces: those that were ordered by South Africa directly from S&W (in fact, the first such order received by S&W) and those that were distributed through the Lend-Lease program.

The first category will all be pre-Victory Models with bright blue finish and checkered stocks, all with 4" barrels. The approximate SN ranges are 685xxx to 719xxx.

The Lend-Lease guns will mostly be the standard phosphate-finished, plain stock Victory Models, all or most with 5" barrels, in just about any SN range.

If you come across a pre-V.M. with original 4" barrel, the odds are good that it will letter as a S.A. gun. Otherwise, you have to look for the South African property marking, a broad arrow (/|\) enclosed within a "U." The problem is that not too many of the property-marked guns are known.

As far as other examples you may wish to look for to round out your collection, there were other countries that were given these revolvers in the postwar years. Other European countries, of course, and even some (RARE!) Israeli-marked examples are known. And, there's the elusive (and frequently faked!) USMC-marked version. Probably the easieist addiional example to find would be one with Canadian property markings.

Good hunting!

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

Thanks for the info, Steve, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a 4" South African Victory with a Broad Arrow and a "U"!

Canoeguy

Steve, are you aware of the Victory or pre-Victory model being available in 38 Special? As I undertand it, the Victory Models used by the South African Police post WW2 were only in 38S&W. Is it possible that some 38 Special were manufactured?

RacingSnake

__________________
SWCA Membership Nr 3833

My South African marked pre victory has a 5 inch barrel. It letters as having been sent to South Africa and is marked with the broadarrow U for Union of South Africa. Came from a police trade in so I have no idea how it got from South Africa to the US. No British proofs.

Here are some pictures serial is 803237 it letters to the BPC in Capetown South Africa ship date of Sep 24th 1941. Note the P on the butt also note there are no USP marking or British proofs only the Union Of South Africa mark and rack number. Looks like the Lanyard was added later. Letter says nothing about a lanyard just 5 inch blue with checkered walnut grips.

As stated the official SA ordnance mark is a U (for Union of South Africa) enclosing a broad arrow. For what it is worth, when I was in South Africa in 1985 I saw police officers carrying what appeared to be SW Victory models with laynard loops in full flap leather holsters. I could only see the butt of the revolver but it is hard to mistake a SW Victory!

Snake,

Both Pre-Victory and Victory Models were made in .38 Special, but most were for U.S. users, both military and civilian. Canada ordered some pre-Victory .38 Specials (evidently before deciding to standardize on the .38-200 chambering of the motherland) and the British Purchasing Commission was, for a while, grabbing anything and everything, including .38 Specials (and .45ACP, .45 Colt, .357 Magnum, .38 Super, etc., etc.!). While they could theoretically have been issued to front line troops, the "oddball" (to the Brits) calibers were more logically confined to non-combat applications. In general, though, if it has a provenance with Britain or one of her Commonwealth nations, it'll be a .38-200 (marked ".38 S&W CTG").

DRB,

Thank you for posting your gun! Yours is the first we have for the database that has lettered to being shipped to the BPC in South Africa! A pre-Lend Lease, pre-Victory shipped to South Africa--- wow! (You bum! Seriously, congrats; you're a lucky guy.) I stand by what I said about there being two "basic categories" of the South African guns, but this doesn't fall into either of those "basic categories." Just as we know (in theory) that there were some 4" guns that went somewhere other than South Africa, we now have confirmed that there were also some pre-Lend Lease 5" guns that went directly to South Africa. I'd appreciate it if you could post the exact wording that Roy used in describing the BPC/Capetown connection in his letter.

It appears that yor gun has only the "P" proof at the butt, a normal marking for that time period. I'd bet ready money that the lanyard hole is factory-drilled; Roy's letters don't ever stipulate the presence of the lanyard loop.

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

DRB, the lanyard ring hole is a factory job. Revolvers that did not receive the lanyard ring would have the serial number centered on the bottom of the grip. If the hole was added after factory it would have pierced part of the serial number.

Nice piece.

__________________
OFT/NRA LIFE MEMBER

Here is what Roy says

"We have researched you Smith & Wesson .38/200 British Service model, British Government Contract, caliber .38 Smith & Wesson revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun with serial number 803237, was shipped from our factory on September 24th, 1941 and delivered to the British Purchasing commission, Capetown, South Africa. The records indicate that this pistol was shipped with a 5 inch barrel, blue finish and checkered Walnut grips"

I also have another pre victory that letters to Australia which has no markings other then factory applied as in no Aussie property marks or British proofs. It was shipped May 29th 1941 to the BPC in Sidney Australia. Serial is 773895.

Got 2 6 inchers that letter to the BPC New York City NY as well.

Now all I need is a 4 inch .38/200 they seem to be very scarce.

One of my pre victorys the lanyard loop is specific in the description from Roy. The South African came from a local outfit that does police trade ins. I got it for $150 a couple years ago, they had not a clue the significance of the marking. I on the other hand knew what it meant and was pretty excited to get it. When the letter came back showing shipment to South Africa I was grinning from ear to ear. Pates book shows a order for the South Africans of of 7,500 5 inchers placed on 6/7/41 I am certain this is one of them. Not sure we can assume they were all sent to Capetown.

DRB...

Nice find! you've got a keeper there!


Steve,

In looking at shipment dates, it appears that the BPC was still purchasing S&W's AFTER the Lend Lease Act went into effect (March 1941). Is this correct?? (just wonder why they would buy guns when the US was ready to
"Lend" them for "free"). Guess I need to do some more reading.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

DRB,

Thanks for the direct quote from Roy's letter. I stand corrected in re Roy's citing the presence of a lanyard loop in a letter. Either my memory is failing me (a frequent accusation from my wife!) or it's just coincidental that the letters that I have seen have had no mention of the lanyard. (I just assume that any gun in this period has the loop.)

Would it be possible for you to send us the info on your two 6 inchers for the database? Either post it here or, if you'd prefer, e-mail me off-forum at [email protected] (and remove the "NOSPAM," natch). And, I assume that your mentioned Australian pre-V.M. (#773895) was a 5" .38-200, blued with checkered walnut stocks and a "P" proof at the butt?

Linda,

While the Lend-Lease Act was passed by Congress on 11 March, 1941, it took a while for the wheels to get into motion. My research indicates that the practice of stamping arms with the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" (later, to be changed to U.S. PROPERTY) marking wasn't enacted until July, 1941. It is my belief that the first Lend-Lease Smiths were shipped no earlier than August/September and more likely not until circa December.

Regradless of the specific date, there was bound to be some cross-over. Smith still had to fulfill the contracts for the B.P.C. guns that had been negotiated in early 1940, long before FDR's first mention of the Lend-Lease program in December, 1940. As far as paying for the B.P.C. guns, remember that the Brits, in 1939, had fronted S&W a cool million for the development of the disastrous 9mm. "Light Rifle." Having already spent the majority of the advanced money, Smith was more than willing to supply the British with revolvers at a reduced price in lieu of the failed design.

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

DRB,

Thanks for posting the info on your Victory's, so many of them have quite interesting backgrounds.

Steve,

Thanks for answering my questions regarding BPC and Lend Lease. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading about the advance monies paid to S&W by the Brits.

Linda

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I have been a bit slow in responding to this thread, but let me answer some of the questions and pose some of my own.

All South African Union Defence Force (UDF) S&W 38s will have the "Arrow in U" property mark on the backstrap with a rack number below. All are square butt with "lanyard swivel" to quote S&W. The first two orders were for 4" barrels. The third order for 7500 placed in June 1941 was to be for 4", but somehow got changed in America to 5".

DBR's pistol was packed at S&W in around July and sent to a UDF depot outside Pretoria via Cape Town (Pretoria is a long way from any port!) The BPC acted as intermediary in the States and had nothing to do with the order which was, like its predecesors, directly between the South Africans and S&W.

Lend Lease was between the US and Britain initally, but in 1942 the London Munitions Assignment Board was formed and from then on direct orders by individual Dominion countries were stopped. All requirements had to met in order of priority and that is why later UDF S&W 38s were Lend Lease guns.

Now to my questions:
In a different thread will5a1 told me that the P proof mark was applied by the US Ordnance Board at Hartford. Why did DRB's pistol, and one of mine from the same order, get the P since I cannot see that they should have gone near Hartford? Or was the P put on at S&W?

Secondly, my 4" from the first order has no P, but under the barrel on the flat and in front of the serial number there is a B. What is this?

Cheers from just outside of Pretoria
Peter

PJGP,

Welcome to the board!

The Hartford Ordnance District was actually located in Springfield, Massachusetts, just "down the road a piece" from the S&W factory. In fact, in late '41/early '42, it was renamed the Springfield Ordnance District. (Factory letters usually cite the "H.O.D.," regardless of shipping date.)

My research indicates that the Ordnance District employees, usually civilians, actually performed their inspections at the S&W factory and applied the markings ["P" proof(s), Ordnance 'flaming bomb,' et al.] there.

The "B" marking under the barrel is a commercial marking indicating a Blued finish.

Hope this helps! If you ever come across any S.A. Victory or pre-Victory Models in your part of the world, please post the details.

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

I can't do anything for your first question, but as to the above, the "B" stands for Blue, as in blued finish. Pre-war, blue barrel flats were so marked; nickel finished guns were marked "N". -S2

PJGP,

The pre-Victory South African I have does not show any markings on the backstrap but does letter as being shipped May 3, 1940 and delivered to the Union of South Africa (Capetown).

It does show some British markings including this mark on the left side right behind the trigger guard. Any idea what it stands for:

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda,

Your marking appears to be a variation of the Birmingham "Viewer's Mark." (See Pate, pp. 107-08.) This suspicion might be confirmed if it has any "BNP" proofmarks. The problem stems from the undecipherable (to my eyes!) character on the right and the evidently mis-struck "I" to the left. As Pate explains, the letter "I" was not used.

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

Ask on Gunboards.com in the British Gun Pub forum.

T-Star

PJGP-

Why did South Africa order four-inch barrels? The M-37 holsters are made for five-inch barrels.

Were different holsters issued?

I have seen a photo of RAF (Not, I think, SAAF) pilots in North Africa. They had six-inch .38-200's, and the flaps could barely be snapped on the flaps. The butts stuck way out, making it easy to ID the guns.

How long did South Africa issue these guns before 9mm Star and Browning pistols replaced them? I think the Police there also had them, or did they have .38 Special examples before the Walther P-1 was issued?

Thanks,

T-Star

Thanks, Steve!

Yep, there's a bunch of BNP's on the gun (each charge hole on sides of cylinder, frame & barrel).

The letter on the left is an I, opposite is what looks like the number 5, and below is a 2.

I noticed in Charlie Pate's book that the letter "I" wasn't listed... (??)

I think "Lefty", who posts on this forum, has same or similar marking on his 4" blued South African.

Texas Star... I've got an acquaintance who was with the South African Police.. the next time I see him I'll ask about the 9mm. He was going to try and get me some vintage South African ammo.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda;

Here's mine (again) for those of you who haven't seen it previously. Letters to South Africa 1941. Four inch 38/200, blue, checkered walnut with medallions. Bottom photo shows Birmingham View proof mark.

So many questions!

Firstly, thanks for the info Steve and Speedo 2.

Digi-shots (Linda?): Your pistol is not a South African one because: it would definitely have a UDF number: and no S&W 38s were shipped to this country until July/August 1940. However, at the end of May 1940 SA agreed to let Britain have the 4600 revolvers that were ready for shipment to SA. This was becasue the Dunkirk evacuation had led to panic buying by Britain in fear of a German invasion. I am sure that your pistol (pistol, revolver is the correct British terminology; I am English)is one of those 4600. The mark you illustrate is a Birmingham proof house coded date stamp for 1958, inspector number 2. Oldflatfoot's (or is it Lefty's?)pistol has the same date stamp!

OLdflatfoot/Lefty: Does your pistol have a UDF number? If so I wonder why it passed through the B'Ham proof house in 1958?

T-Star: Because they were used to the 4" 455 Webley. At the time they had no holsters for the S&W 38s. Locally made Pattern 37 holster were subsequently made and this was fortunate since later S&Ws were 5"! Yes, the RAF used some of the first (6") S&W 38s that Britain bought. The S&W were replaced by Stars in, I think, the 1960s. The SA Police used Webley and S&W 38s until the 1980s, but the P38 started to be used in the 1960s.

The plan is to write a short book on all of this, but when is a good question!

Cheers
Peter

Thanks, Peter!

That's interesting... I'll have to do some reading up on this.

I did have mine lettered by S&W and was informed that it was one of a 1200 unit shipment that was shipped and delivered to the Union of South Africa (Capetown) on May 3, 1940. Here's a pic of of the revolver with some UK ammo items:



I believe Lefty also had his lettered and was informed that his was one of 1400 units that was delivered to Capetown on May 22, 1940.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Peter raises an interesting point here: that the first South African guns did not end up in that country, but were appropriated by the Motherland. All of the (albeit, relatively few) examples that we have in the database that letter as being shipped to South Africa in May, 1940, have postwar British proofs. (We have some later-shipped S.A. guns that also have British proofs but, to date, we have attributed all of these examples to the exigencies of war. If a South African officer fell on the battlefield, his revolver, et al., would have been taken by surviving comrades. If an English soldier had been present, he would not have turned his nose up at a "free" back-up to his SMLE, Sten, Bren, etc., just because it had been an S.A.-issued weapon! When he turned the gun in at home at the end of the hostilities, it would theoretically have been treated just like any other B.S.R. and, eventually, proofed in England for sale as surplus.)

It is entirely possible that S&W *did* ship the guns from their factory to a South African destination... but, they were waylaid *after* that and designated for shipment to England. This definitely requires more research! Peter, can you cite a source (written or oral) to corroborate the "none shipped to S.A. until June/July, 1940?"

If this can be confirmed, we may need to change our desciption of these May, 1940, guns as "South African contract" guns and not as "South African shipped" guns.

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

Hi Steve,

This is getting interesting!

How about this scenario...

Both Lefty/Old Flatfoot and my "South African" were part of the original Allied Purchase by South Africa on 2/19/40 of 8,800 units (C.Pate p.118).

Mine was part of a 1200 unit shipment on May 3, 1940 (Roy Jinks)
Lefty's was part of a 1400 unit shipment on May 22, 1940 (Roy Jinks)

Both these shipments occurred before Dunkirk (May 26 - June 4, 1940).
Since no one knew at the time of the forthcoming "loss at Dunkirk" there was no immediate need to rearm the "Motherland" with these early shipments.

Are you aware of any pre-Dunkirk shipments to South Africa? If my math is right, there should be another 1600 unit shipment, not counting the 4600 units that Peter cited.

Linda

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Peter-

Why would they have been used to four-inch barelled .455's? The MK. VI Webley dates from May, 1915, and normally had a six-inch barrel.

Moreover, the Enfield .38 was adopted by 1932, and had a five-inch barrel. I have seen a movie ("Drums") made in 1937, and the Pattern 1937 web gear was already in use. The film was set in India.

T-Star

Linda has done her homework well, but allow me to play “devil’s advocate.” The specific disaster at Dunkirk might not have been needed to precipitate Great Britain into “appropriating” the South African guns. What they may have only suspected before was confirmed when Germany moved into Czechoslovakia in March, 1939. I think “Mother England” knew what was coming and was gearing up as quickly as possible; they knew they were going to be in a “fightin’ war.” From its introduction through March of 1939, the Brits had ordered manufacture of only ~20,000 Enfield No. 2 revolvers, but in June/July of ’39, they ordered 87,574 more! (Note that this was before the invasion of Poland and the resulting declaration of war and almost a year before Dunkirk and the Battle of France.) In February, 1940, a study was released analyzing “deficiency between requirement and stock.” This study determined that the Brits should anticipate needing over 233,000 additional handguns! As they kept ordering more and more Enfields (and were later to also contract Webley, et al., to assist), there were other arms that were needed, too. That’s what prompted the contracting of S&W to design & manufacture a 9mm. “Light Rifle,” the failure of which was to ultimately result in the negotiation to provide Britain with Smith .38 H.E. revolvers. As best as I can determine, the first .38 H.E. contract of record between S&W and the B.P.C. wasn’t finalized until May 28, 1940. [Ironically, if I’m correct, the guns used to satisfy the one million dollar contract were .38 Special models and not the .38 S&W (.38-200) round that we normally associate with the S&W “British Service Revolver!”] By this time, the “Phoney War” was over as the Nazi blitzkrieg began rolling into France and the Low Countries. England needed arms! It is entirely possible that some “gentlemen’s network” (read: “good ole boys!”) added a negotiation contingency of this large contract… one that would virtually bail out S&W from near bankruptcy, if that’s not over-stating it! Perhaps the crates were still waiting on the docks of Boston/New York for commercial shipping--- this was, after all, still pre-Lend Lease, pre-Liberty ships and pre-FedEx!--- and were waylaid and re-marked for shipping to England; or, perhaps the ship carrying those crates had England as its first destination and it was unloaded there before heading south down the Atlantic; or, .... The possibilities are endless. Whether it was with “permission” of Smuts’ government is probably lost, but he was pro-British and had been a trusted colleague of Churchill for many years by the time the latter moved from his position as First Lord of the Admiralty to succeeded Chamberlain as Prime Minister in that all-important month of May, 1940.

I guess the point is that we may never know for sure whether the guns from these first shipments all ended up in England and none(?) arrived in Cape Town unless (insert plug here!) we one day get a submission to the database with confirmed provenance. It’s sure interesting to think about, anyways!

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

Here's my Bavarian marked Victory, I love it!

[IMG:left][/IMG]

[IMG:left][/IMG]

Steve,

The plot thickens... Thanks for your comments and additional info.

I went back through some old postings and came across another similar South Africa gun, s/n 685,087. It too had the BNP stamp along with the "civilian or commercial" view mark; with no mention of the U^ on the backstrap. I wonder if this gun was ever lettered and I'm also curious as to where & when it shipped. I'm guessing by the serial number that it too, shipped in May of 1940.

I also found mention of s/n 685,350 but found no details on the gun.

I guess mine could have been "weighlayed" on it's way to South Africa and
used by British Troops, however, it is strange that there's no military broad arrows markings on it. Maybe during the pre-BPC time frame this step was skipped ??

Do you show any other early So. Africa shipments in your database? Especially any earlier ones with the U^ on the backstrap.

Linda

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

HE-

How odd that your Bavarian gun is marked in English! I think it's authentic, but why wouldn't they mark them in German?

T-Star

Texas Star:

I think these were for post-war Germany police use.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I've got this pistol lettered from Roy Jinks as a lend lease pistol, but they have no way of showing what it's final disposition was. The Brits could give these away to whomever they wanted I guess. Kinda makes you wonder why they bothered to stamp them US property doesn't it?

Reminds me of all the chopped up Tommy guns that are being resold to the american public from our "friends" in Russia. They apparently had no use for them during WWII due to the caliber and the good old ATF wouldn't let them be returned to the States in working order.

Gotta go, think I'm going to be sick thinking about it.

Linda,

First, remember that the database contains relatively few South African-lettered examples. For example, we have, to date, a total of only seven S.A. guns that letter as being shipped in May, 1940. Of those seven, we have markings info on six: NONE of those six have any South African property markings and three DO have postwar British Civilian proofs. (SN 685350 is one of these. There are also a couple of other NON-lettered 4" examples, including SN 685087, with similar results.) The first mention we have of a U/'Broad Arrow' marking is from a July, 1940, shipment.

Now, just to further confuse the issue, we also have one from later in 1940 (non-lettered, but inferred by its SN) that is marked with the U/'Broad Arrow' AND also has British post-war civilian proofs! (That's the one that started the "battlefield pick-up by a Brit" theory mentioned.)

Of the earliest (ca. 1940) B.S.R.s with a British provenance (shipped to the B.P.C. N.Y.C.), the only one with a 'Broad Arrow' is also "RCAF" marked. At that time, it seems that only a "P" proof (American-applied) and, occasionally, a "BO" (believed to be "British Order") marking are found.

Until more information comes in, it seems that our assumptions must continue to be deductions based on extrapolation with few verifiable facts.

Texas Star,

We have, to date, nine examples of Bavaria Municipal Police B.S.R.s in the database that carry markings as shown on HE_Officer's. Of those that were gifted to various postwar Continental L.E. agencies, it seems to be split between English and native tongue markings. (Perhaps the former were marked by the giftor and the latter by the giftee?)

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

Steve-

That's sort of my own thinking. I know that both the British and the US supplied these guns to German and Austrian police, who had been disarmed of German weapons following the war.

T-Star

Don't confuse South Africa with Britain! During the 1920s and 30s the UDF was starved of funds and only had a very small full time regular staff. They had very few revolvers, most of which were (old) Mk IV 4". Likewise they used old leather holsters. I have seen a photo of soldiers carrying Mk VI 6" in open bottom 4" holsters with the foresight and muzzle protruding!

Been a bit busy so didn't come back earlier.

Steve, I have been researching the South African S&Ws for some time; you can rest assured that what I say is verifiable. You need to remember that S&W didn't ship anything; they sent the revolvers to New York. The SA Legation and later the BPC then had to find and organise a ship to Cape Town, from where the guns were sent to Pretoria. The factory letter date can thus be some months earlier than the received in SA date; this became a bigger problem as pressure on shipping resources increased.

On the 30th May 1940 the British begged for the South African revolvers, none of which had then left the US. The request was agreed overnight and the 4600 that were awaiting shipping, or were virtually finished, were transferd to the British. The factory contract people would have been party to this, but it would appear that the factory "shipping" records were not changed. No revolvers were received here until mid August and these were the result of S&W starting again with manufacture for SA.

The lowest UDF number that I have seen so far is 112 which is S/N 693675, but UDF 1053 is S/N 721300. The batches were numbered as they arrived and the first batch was qty 2200, so both these guns came on the same ship. S/Ns were scattered and I have not yet seen a 68xxxx.

I feel certain that any post war British commercially proofed specimen without a UDF number never saw South Africa. We do find a fair number of V suffix S/N Lend Lease guns here with BNP proof marks. However, I an sure that these were commercial imports in the 1960s, the same as "War Finish" marked Webley Mk IV 38s. [I mainly collect Webleys] Parker-Hale sold lots of both of these types of revolver.

For the database; S/N 697923 6" is marked RAF.

Peter

Peter-

Thanks! That was very informative!

What are your laws like for collectors? I have read that a gun owner there can have only ten guns! (Since the black govt. took power.)

T-Star

quote: PJGP,
You need to remember that S&W didn't ship anything; they sent the revolvers to New York.

From the early 1900's to the late 1930's various steamships ran the route between Boston - New York and were berthed at Pier 14. There were a few other steamship lines located in NYC during this timeframe that I'm still researching.

From 1936 to 1950, all ocean shipments were under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Maritime Commission and only licensed freight forwarders could handle and arrange overseas shipments.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Just realized I made a typographical error concerning the shipping date on my BSR SA Contract revolver. It was May 1940, not 1941. Hope I haven't added to the confusion.

It does not have a UDF mark or number. It does have the commercial Birmingham proofs....ad naseum.

Lefty, no problem.

I remembered that yours shipped just a few weeks after mine and that they both were in the month of May 1940.

I guess both shipments "could have sat" at the docks in NY for a while before shipment... however, S&W was producing these .38/200's as fast as they could. Most S&W wartime shipments "appear" to be a little more in consecutive serial number order than post-war, etc.

There were a few steamship lines that ran the NY - So. African route during this period of time, Farrell Lines and the American South African Line (also owned by Farrell Lines). A few of the Amer.So.Af. Line ships were sold/transferred/taken by the British and made MOWT ships (Ministry of War Transports). I've got a list of them... including the ones that were sunk by torpedo off the coast of South Africa.

I wonder when S&W was actually paid for these revolvers (in advance, when shipped or when received..?) Somewhere, I think I read that the pre British Purchase Commission guns were "cash & carry".

Linda

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Peter,

I can’t tell you how welcome your contributions are; we’re lucky you found this forum! As you can see, we here on this forum, mostly Americans, also have a great interest in the South African S&Ws. Your input on this subject is invaluable. Have you considered writing down your findings? Inclusion of photocopies of any pertinent South African documents would be of unique interest to collectors.

Your description of Britain co-opting the original S.A. shipments makes sense. It matches one of the possibilities I’d posited, as I’d figured it’d take a while to get from Springfield and laded on board a freighter. As you say, factory shipping information probably records the contractor of the order. Linda’s additional research (you’d make a good “cold case” detective, Linda!) appears to corroborate this change in destination for the first batches of the S.A. contract after they left the Smith factory.

One can only imagine the trans-Atlantic chatter going on in those final days of May, 1940! S&W and Britain hadn’t signed the final contract for their guns until the 28th and in the midst of the Dunkirk evacuation would have been, as you say, desperate for munitions of all types.

Re SN 697923: it is a .38 S&W (.38-200), I presume? Where on the gun is the “RAF” marking and are there any other markings? If you have info on any other Smiths from this period, we’d love to have it for the database.

Linda,

While I agree that later wartime shipments were generally more in SN order, these first B.S.R.s were still jumping around a bit. For example, we have two guns in the 694xxx-695xxx range that weren’t shipped until Sept. 20, 1940 (to the exiled Norwegian Air Force in Canada) while one of the 1400 “South African” guns shipped May 22nd was in the 697xxx range.

Steve

__________________
CHL/NRA Instructor/RSO/Referee

The SA order for 7500 5" was 25% with order and remaining 75% before the guns left the factory; price $21-90 each. What do you Yanks say - "in God we trust, all others pay cash"?

Not so! Since mid 2004 maximum possible for the man in the street (minimum is zero if licence applications refused)is four for "occasional" hunting or sports shooting, only one can be a handgun, no self-loading rifle or shotgun. You have to "motivate" (ie convince the police)each application. One hangun or shotgun for self-defence, which comes out of the four (thus total still four)and a very good motivation is needed.

These limits don't apply to active members of police approved hunting and sports shooting organisations, but each application must fit with particular sports discipline or hunting quarry.

Serious collectors who are members of strictly controlled collectors' associations have no limit on firearm numbers. However, again each firearm must fit your genuine field of collecting.

The big disaster for collecting is that everyone must re-licence their existing guns from old law to new one. This means that the man in the street will not and/or cannot re-licence the old collectable guns that we collectors seek. Who hunts or sports shoots with a Luger, Webley, Victory Model, etc? Don't forget the one handgun rule either. Thus large numbers of collectable guns, especially handguns are being surrendered and melted down.

Not much future for new collectors or additions to existing collections once the re-licencing process finishes in 2009 I am afraid.

Pretty depressing, but in England it is worse!

Peter

To quote from my earlier posting Steve "The plan is to write a short book on all of this, but when is a good question!" Can't give too much away until then!

With regards to the RAF specimen, yes, it is in .38 S&W and the RAF is on the RHS below the cylinder. I will have to see it again if still available to check other markings. I had a mind to buy it, but the price was too steep. Hoewever, I think that it might come down.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for all your help!

In addition to the info on the 7500 5" ordered, do you have any info on payments for the first two orders for 4" blued S&W's:

8,800 ordered Feb. 19, 1940
5,047 ordered Sep. 9, 1940

Thanks again!

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

[QUOTE]Originally posted by digi-shots:
In addition to the info on the 7500 5" ordered, do you have any info on payments for the first two orders for 4" blued S&W's:

8,800 ordered Feb. 19, 1940
5,047 ordered Sep. 9, 1940
/QUOTE]

Only that the quote for the first order was $21-50 each free alongside ship New York.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks again for the additional information!

I do have another question...

when you said, "free alongside ship New York"...

could New York also be construed to mean the ship "New York" ??

There was a passenger/cargo ship named "City of New York" that was part of Farrell's American South African Lines. It ran the NY-South Africa route and was sunk by torpedo on it's way from Mozambique to NY in 1942.

Linda

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245