I figure many of you who have not had a chance to handle an early Target gun might want to know more about the sight.
We are talking about the first variety that started on the 1899's and continued on into the early Post-WW I period. They have a slightly different contour on the earliest models, but they have the same design-




These early sights have an elevation screw that is threaded into the frame, but NOT attached to the sight-








This elevation screw is split to provide some tension in the frame so it does not move when shooting-




The rear sight leaf is domed where this screw contacts it-







The blade is movable for windage by two pointed, opposing screws. Keep them SNUG, or the blade can fall out!








CAUTION- these early sights are secured by NOTHING but the tiny screw at the front of the leaf. Be careful when carrying the old guns!
They can be broken entirely off the gun. That is what happened here- note how it bent the tiny screw, and folded the slot closed-

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

duplicate post deleted

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thanks Lee. I have never had to take one off but now I feel I can do it if I have to.
Bob Ray

Great info. Many thanks.

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SWCA # 2294

Thanks Lee for that EXCELLENT tutorial. I highly value every tidbit of info you offer. You're kinda like E F Hutton, when you speak, I listen. Not to mention that uncanny resembelance to a certain Colonel that will go nameless Thanks.

Also, I have two 1905 4th targets, one early (1917ish) and one later, in the 30's. The early one has two small screws on the rear of the rear sight but the later one has only one. I couldn't find a reference in the Neal and Jinks book. Was that just an engineering change of evolution in that series?

Roger

Thanks for taking your time in providing the detailed presentation.

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Caveat venditor.

Another voice of gratitude here. I have a couple of these guns and have been scared to death to touch those tiny screws - made to look so big in your magnifications. Now I know what I'm in for if I have to. Nicely done tutorial and should go into the FAQs.

Lee

What is the approximate year of this gun, and/or the serial number ?
I can add a couple of comments, once I know what vintage you have.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
32 HE Target, 1903- 5th change, Ser # 209766. Manu 1910-1917.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thank you, I've never taken one of those apart to see that before.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

Thanks, Lee -

VERY timely!

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Rick

Planned it a long time ago. Had it apart for pics. Suddenly came under pressure to "git 'er dun!"

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee

The earliest K-frame, from 1899 through maybe 1905 or so, had a different
rear-sigt blade. The blade itself was much thinner than this example, and
the bottom is a bead, instead of those two angles corners. The rear sight
base itself was different, as well. In your later example, the blade does not
slide through, from one side to the other, but rather lifts out. In the
early rear sights, the rear base has a thin cut, and then a hole that traverses
from one side to the other. The blade does not lift out, but rather slides all
the way through, from one side to the other. Like this sight, there are two
small screws, but they are flat on the ends, instead of being pointed.

Another difference is that, on these very early bead-based blades, the blade
itself is numbered to the gun. Typically its the last three digits of the
serial number, but sometimes its the last three digits of the assembly number.

A final difference is that these very early target front sight blades were
typically either a Paine bead, or a knife-like blade. Both of these are very
thin, with the result that the notch in the rear sight blade is also very very
tiny. The introduction of the Patridge front sight blade, which is a much wider
blade than the Paine or knive-edge, required a much wider rear sight notch.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Lee, Somebody once said that when you get too old to cut the mustard, you write Tutorials. Is that true? -- -- Another little tutorial tidbit here is to look at the picture of the rear sight upside down. See that serial number? That tells you the gun left the factory as a Target model and was not sent back later for addition of target sights. therefore the gun will letter as an original target model. Original production target models needed that number on the sight bottem to get the same sight back on the gun that it was first fitted to after the gun was taken apart for bluing, as the slot on the frame top strap was milled to fit that particular rear sight. Later addition of the target sights on a service model gun was a "one off' job done in the service dep't and since only one gun was involved there was no need to number the rear sight.

Mike,
Of course you are correct, and I was not very clear about what is similar. I should have clearly stated that the elevation screw is the same from the 1899 Models forward to the early Post WW I period, like this gun shown.
I had pics of an 1899 sight, disassembled, that I took last year, planning this tutorial. I somehow lost them- I suppose I deleted them in a pic-purge after a series of auctions!
So, instead of getting into the blades, I thought I would just stick to the elevation differences.
Excellent verbal explanation you gave- just about makes pics unnecessary.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Well, can I change the title to "LESSON"??
Speaking from experience??

Meant to mention the numbers, but got in a rush and forgot.
Actually, the slots are cut to spec- they are the same width, and the leafs are not fitted to a slot- they drop in. They are, however, POLISHED to match the frame contour perfectly, hence the number to rematch them.
I have never seen a sight that was not numbered that I recall, but I have heard you talk about early 44's sent back for sights.
Interestingly, I talked to a man who has a 1917 with Target sights yesterday. It had a frame date in 1923, I believe. He sent Roy good pics, and Roy gave the opinion that it had been returned on that date for the sights. The date had the month, day, and year. The sight is numbered to the gun.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Roger,
Do you have that backwards??
The two screw sight is the last pre-war variety before the micro-click.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

School is definitely in session! Thank you all very much!

Jerry

Lee, Like all things S&W, there's never a hard and fast rule that will apply to every situation, and 1917 targets are one of those exceptions to the nor. As we know, there are no original 1917 Target models, all 1917s with target sights, adjustable or fixed, have been added after the gun was first shipped, and often those I've examined have a numbered rear target sight, contrary to the usual rule. -- Call 'em Tutorials, Lesson, or whatever - I think it's great that on this Forum, old timers like you can come up with threads that provide info. for collectors that they will find no where else. Keep it up, even after they come to take away your crayons!

Ed

Here are two that I owned, a few years ago :

0294 6.5 Bl S SM 1917 6.5" 0 trgt 180515 C.F.Armstrong (?)
180042 5.5 Bl S SM 1917 5.5" trgt 260927 F.T.Budge Co, Miami

The both letter as 1917's shipped with target sights.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, Aren't those torevolvers service sighted 1917s that were taken from inventory at the factory and then S&W put target sights on them to fill the special orders for those two gentlemen? They would, of course, letter as shipped as target guns, but grew up as non-targets? That maybe splitting hairs, but considering all the 1917s S&W had on hand, I can't see them starting from scratch to make a 1917 Target. The forging dies would have long since been retired and they wouldn't tool up for two guns. They would go to the vault and pull out a couple of 1917s and convert them to target models, right?

I believe I posted these photos last year in a thread called "A change within a change" or something like that. Pictured left, one screw rear sight #6463XX c. 1930's and pictured right, two screw rear sight #3078XX somewhat earlier but, both 1905 4th. Change serial range. Of course there are several other feature differences, but I thought the rear sight images would help illustrate the comments made by others above.

Lefty,
I blew the pic up, and it looks like TWO screws on the LEFT, and ONE on the RIGHT??

What does "Change serial range" mean?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Ed, Mike, et al-
I do love this forum. The exchange of ideas, data, and PICS that is possible here is truly a wonderful asset for the study of S&W's.
I have learned a lot from both of you, and others, and I thank you all for sharing.
Have to run now- my walker is due for servicing, and it is pudding day here at the Home....

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

So after reading this thread I get out my 58XXX serial # range Target. Tried taking the little screw out with a jewlers Screw Driver? forget it. any suggestions? what type of Screwdriver do you use.


Dan

Good question.
I had planned to put a "tech tutorial" on the old sights, but might as well go into it here.

I clamp the barrel in a set of leather vise jaws in a rather high vise. Clamp the gun more or less LEVEL and PLUMB(frame vertical). This allows one to have the screwdriver "square" with the screw just by eyeballing it.

I wear a 5X magnifyer visor.

I have a set of Craftsman jeweler's screwdrivers that I bought at Sears years ago. They are the best set I have ever seen. The shanks are the longest I have seen. They are ground VERY well. The handles, while still rather thin, are plastic, and are longer and thicker than any I have seen. They are not really large enough for a palm grip, but they allow the fingers of both hands a purchase. They have a rotating cap. While pressing the cap with an index finger, I use the thumbs and fingers of both hands to grip. They are not hollow ground, but have served me well.
Generally speaking, hollow ground gunsmithing screwdrivers are not small enough. They can, of course, be ground or filed small enough to work. However, BEAR in MIND that too much torque on these tiny screws is likely to wring it off or pop half the head off.

If the screws don't turn readily, STOP. They varnish up over the years, and get stuck. Squirt a good PENETRATING oil that is BLUE SAFE on them, and walk away. PATIENCE. If angry, frustrated, etc, on any given day, WALK AWAY. NOT a job for a preoccupied man.
Soak them as long as necessary. If one day doesn't do it, keep squirting oil for two or three days. Sometimes they move, then bind again. MORE oil and patience. It may have taken 100 years for them to get THAT stuck- don't expect to cure it in the first minute.
never had one beat me yet.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Ed

How in the world would one ever know that ? As far as I know, and perhaps as far as you know, there
is nothing in any of the records to suggest that this might have occured . I don't think there is
any basis, in fact, for such an assertion.

First of all, the barrel forgings are the same, irregardless of how the front sight is eventually
configured. Target-sighted barrels are simply fixed-sighted barrels with additional milling.

Second, the frame forgings are identical, as well. At some point in the manufacturing process,
different machining operations are performed, depending on whether the frame is to be target or
fixed rear sights. There are known examples of fixed-sighted frames that went back to the factory
for adjustable rear sights; they all seem to have a remanent of the original fixed sight trough.
It was a bit deeper than the cut for a rear-sight assembly.

Third, the first of those two guns was shipped in 1918. And is categorized as a 1917. What could
have possibly expired within one year ?!

I can tell you that neither of these two guns have any remanent of a deeper fixed-sight trough.

I recently acquired what I believe is the first K-32. Its a 4" target K-frame chambered in 32 long,
and roll-marked that way on the barrel. Of course, its letters this way, as well. It was shipped
in Sept, 1910. ( I'm defining K-32 as a target-sighted 32 Long K-frame ). Clearly it was a
special order - but nothing that the factory was not already doing, in bits and pieces, on other
guns. 32 Long was a common chambering , and target sights were readily available.

You are not going to suggest that this not really a K-32, just because it wasn't something that
was cataloged ? Or, at the limit, are you going to suggest that any special-ordered gun is not
really what the factory says it was ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, I understand where you are coming from on this, and true "how do you know, etc." is a question that's hard to answer. I'm relying on Jink's info regarding 1917s, and that was that all 1917 frames, made in WW1 era, are service sighted types and there was no tooling set up for producing target models, expect for when they got an order for a target model, like yours, they built one using a 1917 military frame from the inventory. If a model was cataloged as being available in either service sighted or target, then a supply of both type frames was available to complete orders, like as seen with the T-Locks, etc. Whether your K32 4" was made from a service sighted gun removed from the vault to complete an order for a target gun, no one knows, unless you could find the work order invoice and track the serial number to see if it was put in the vault from the final assembly as a service sighted gun, then removed to the service dep't to rebuild as a target gun. Sometimes you don't want to know the background of a nice target model. It is what it is. Kind of like the fellow who met a gorgeous gal in a bar, went home with her, had a great night and in the morning notice a picture of a man on the nightstand next to the bed. He asked her who was the man and she said "That was me before my operation" Ed.

Honey,
Do we have any popcorn??

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Ed

Well - for some reason or other, you have a fixation about target guns not really being
target guns.

Apparently you haven't heard that the factory was making target-sighted K-frames in
1910. They were doing that, you know ! I'm perplexed as to why you suggest that , maybe,
this was a fixed-sighted gun to start with. You must have some good reason, but it
eludes me.

I'm glad that I didn't tell the whole story at first, as your reaction is most curious.
The whole story is that the gun is a 32-20, chambered in 32 long. The barrel, of course,
is the same, except for the roll marking. There were several - like a handful - made in
1910, and again a few in 1916. (Actually, I had posted the known serial numbers on the
S&WCA files sections a year or so ago. ) 32-20's and .38 K-frames are identical except
for the caliber, so it would be natural to use the 32-20 series to make up 32 longs.

Clearly there were target 32-20's in 1910, and clearly there were 4" barrels. It's my
guess that they simply chambered the cylinder for 32 long, and presto - a K-32 . I don't
know where the barrel roll-marking came from - maybe from the 32 HE production line.

I also recently, in the last 6 months, acquired a 4" target 32-20, made in late 1909.
The serial number is within about 3000 of the 32 Long gun. Otherwise, these two guns are
identical.

Regards, Mike Priwer

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Pace

One of the best posts and discussions I remember seeing lately. That's what I love about this forum. You can really learn a lot. Would it be possible to post a sequential history (pictures) of the target sights?

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Lee:

Great photos and wonderful tutorial!!

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Lee:

Yeah, I got them misconscrewed.....damn reading glasses.

I may have posted this a couple of years back, but once a pre war target gun has been fitted with the micrometer click sights, they CAN'T be converted back(unless by a very skilled metal worker).

I have one of the last 50 N frames, a 5" blued, hbh,pre wae magnas, and King front sights(as well as the original). 357 Mag, non registered, made before production closed in 1940-42. It has a serrated sight base, as on a post war gun. I knew the guns' history, as I met with the original owners "kid"-christ he was older than I am!!.

Said his dad, a NH LEO, brought the gun to Springfield, and waited while S&W milled out a proper base for the new micrometer sight, some time in the early 50;s. He hated the tiny screws with heavy loads on the original.

I thought for a minute, that maybe on of the newest sights for the 2nd model .22 might have been factory installed. Unlike original targets sights, with a blued area under the sight, this was left "in the white" after the milling, and I could not screw the pre war sight off my 38/44 Outdoorsman into the "new groove".

So just a liitle tidbit if a seller tries to tell you that the original target rear sight can be "screwed back on" onto a pre war w1th a micro adjustable.

Bud

Hi guys ,,just testing this picture of my 1905 4th. change target ser.# 3966xx.

I'm guessing 1921? Hope it comes out.







Regards ,,,Al

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NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

While we're on the subject of these old sights, does anyone know where to get a replacement screw? Specifically, the lock screw from the 'two screw' or late pre-war type sight.
Thx,
Jim

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The tiny, little screw at the front of the sight tang can be (and usually is) a booger! Lee's advice of repeated applications of penetrating oil (Use Kano Kroil) and patience is certainly sound, but here's a new wrinkle on the old dog.

Step One: Elevate the rear of the sight (as high as possible simplifies the task).

Step Two: Heat the screw and surrounding area with a hair drier set on KILL.

Step Three: Inject the Kroil into the sight channel (under the tang)----and some's good, more's better, and too much is just right. (The Kroil then has DIRECT access to the threads of the screw----without the necessity of finding its way past the head of the screw.) Needless to say, gravity will be on your side if the barrel is depressed.

Step Four: Sit and stare at it for a spell.

Step Five: Repeat as necessary.

Once it's out, make everything squeaky clean (pipe cleaners in the hole). Reassemble with CorrosionX (in the hole/on threads of the screw)---and it'll come right out the next time you want it to.

Ralph Tremaine

Lee, et.al.

Do you think that someone in the past got frustrated with the "opposing screw" program and returned this 2nd Model for a postwar sight installation?

There is "865" stamped on the frame under the grips.

Thanks!

What a great and educational thread.. Thanks to all that participated.

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Eccentric old coot

What an education! The rear sight on mine is slightly different, the front sight is a somewhat notched bead, sn is 2359xx. A six inch barrel, what model would I have? Also, roll stamp on top of barrel has patent dates, .38 spl.

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Kevin in Oregon

Thanks to all who contributed. The forum aided me in purchasing a 5" early 4 screw target ( shipped 1906). this forum has been very helpful with information. The amount of quality information generously shared here is invaluable.

Hard to say unless you have a letter on the gun.
By that, I mean that it might not have even been a Target when shipped.
Maybe somebody sent a 44 Military in and had sights put on. Things like that could still get done in the 60s.
If it was an early Target and had the easily broken sight, maybe someone wanted the newer system after breaking it.
I'm not Claire Voyant, but I think I met her in a juke joint in the 70s.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

That obscenely high front sight put me in mind of one of those Illegal Immigrant Models, but you said "2nd Model"; so this is a .44 HE 2nd---an 'N' frame----right? That being the case, I like your guess just fine---although it may or may not have been a target model to begin with (A letter will tell that tale.). I'm assuming the sight tang is of the grooved variety---not smooth, and not blended into the top strap----yes?

Ralph Tremaine

Going strictly by the serial number, you have an M&P Target, circa "19 early/mid teens", thereabouts, with the "large screw spring up" rear sight----an odd wad where the sight rises via spring pressure (The tang is bent/curved, and tempered---as a spring.). (All previous and subsequent sights are moved (up/down) via a jack screw.) This was a bad idea that came into being around 1911, and stayed around until they used up their supply of sights----1923. It is readily identified by the rear screw---a cap screw through the sight and into the top strap. And, as you may have surmised, it has a "large" head (comparatively speaking)-----diameter approximately 5/32". The bad idea part was they found they couldn't/didn't control the heat treating of the tang properly, and ended up with varying degrees of spring power. Very strong is best because it won't shoot loose easily. Very weak is worst because the sight won't rise enough to be usable at longer ranges. The good news is target models were few and far between during this period (about 2% of total), so you have a rather rare gun.

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you, rct269. Upon closer examination with a magnifying glass this morning, I noticed that the front sight says Lyman, a replacement I presume. Last patent date on top of barrel is Sept. 14, '09.

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Kevin in Oregon

Ralph---

Here's a shot of the topstrap...

The Lyman front may or may not be a replacement----probably is. I say probably is because my data says "This sight was applied to break-open revolvers on order from 1895 to 1920.". So, on the one hand, we have a sight ostensibly applicable to break-opens; but on the other hand we have an HE revolver made (and likely shipped) before 1920----and "S&W would do anything anybody would pay them to do." (That quote from Jinks.) The bottom line is S&W would put virtually any front sight available in the marketplace on any of their (target) guns. A letter MAY answer this question----directly or indirectly. Specifically, a letter may tell you the gun was a special order (only), or it may tell you it was a special order---and exactly why it was a special order. If the letter was mute vis-a-vis special order and/or front sight, you can (reasonably) safely assume the sight is a replacement. Some folks get their knickers in a knot over replacement anything. Others, with an appreciation of what goes on in the real world, have come to expect replacement items----grips come first, followed shorty thereafter by sights, followed by action jobs (with or without altered hammer spurs)----and the beat goes on.

Your patent date is the same as one of mine (with this sight) and different from another (with this sight)---offering some insight as to why I seldom pay much attention to patent dates. (#238778 carries the Sept. 14, 09 date----#264678 carries a last date of Dec. 29, 14.) Feel free to fret about such things. I'm going to get some breakfast.

Ralph Tremaine

Another thing I seldom pay much attention to is this 1st/2nd/3rd/4th change business-----which strikes me as a concoction of collectors to justify buying more guns----an entirely reasonable approach. That said, #238778 is a 3rd change gun----#264678 a 4th change; which (very likely) may explain the different patent dates on my two examples.

One thing's for sure-------------the patent dates have absolutely nothing to do with the sights. There is no record/mention of this sight in the factory records. Jinks explains that thus: "This is not a surprise as many of what the foreman considered as minor changes is not recorded." It's perhaps worthy of note that what S&W referred to as "the foreman", we would refer to as the Plant Manager----as in Big Kahuna.

Re: Barrel patent dates on target guns. The Dec29 '24 patent date refers to the hammer block safety, and target guns didn't get that safety until around the mid '20s as I recall. However it has been stated that the barrels of the pre war target guns were standard barrels that were taken from stock and milled for the target front sight, so a target gun may have the patent date for the hammer safety but never actually had such a safety. I have one prewar .38 target in that configuration.

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Tom
1560

Okay---I thought I had this all figured out. I didn't----still don't.

I certainly knew putting a (rear) target sight (either pre or post war) on a standard gun involved a trip to the milling machine. I SUPPOSED putting a post war sight on a pre-war target gun also involved a trip to the milling machine, but figured most of the work had already been done. So I looked at two N frame target guns---one pre, one post. Then I grabbed a machinist rule I keep handy----and got edumacated!

Both tangs are the same width. Both notches at the rear of the top-strap APPEAR to be the same. The retaining screw on the post war gun has a larger diameter head on it----but APPEARS to be in the same location. At this point, I begin to think swapping pre and post war sights was job for a screwdriver---and a hacksaw because the post-war sight tang needs to be shortened----and I don't know if I'm right or wrong. In my blissful ignorance, I suspect the depth of the groove in the pre-war top-strap perhaps needs to be deeper to accommodate the post-war sight tang.

Bottom Line: A complete answer requires removing the sights from both guns, sitting and staring, some fiddling to see what fits where, and perhaps a bit more measuring.

Your move. Say if you'd like to see if I can change these sights with a screwdriver. (And if anybody out there already knows the answer to this question, speak up.)

Ralph Tremaine