1917 on it's way/Has Arrived!

Deacon KC · #1 01-14-2008, 02:51 PM

Just finished negotiating a trade for a 1917 [woot woot] and am waiting for it to get here. SN is 67700 and hoping somebody out there would know what year that would fall into. Thanks in advance, Kevin

Deacon KC · #2 01-14-2008, 02:51 PM

Just finished negotiating a trade for a 1917 [woot woot] and am waiting for it to get here. SN is 67700 and hoping somebody out there would know what year that would fall into. Thanks in advance, Kevin

John Deere · #3 01-14-2008, 02:54 PM

I'm not one of the true experts like we have around here, but your S&W should be dated near June 1918 or so (mine's about 1,000 numbers earlier). Perhaps someone elase will chime in!

Hope you love it when it arrives!

JD

Deacon KC · #4 01-18-2008, 03:28 PM

Well, the note from the USPS was here today so I went and picked it up. always fun opening those boxes, and I found a very nicely refinished 1917 in there. Very tight mechanically with some light pitting under the reblue. Good bore and cylinder, but the US Army markings on the butt were removed, however the barrel inscription and Inspector's mark are still there. Only marking under the grip on the right side is a small M or W.

cgt4570 · #5 01-18-2008, 03:50 PM

I would be concerned with the lack of serial number on the frame! It looks like it was removed when the Govt markings were polished off.
Aside from that, it should make a fine, fun shooter.

Chris

npd136 · #6 01-18-2008, 06:11 PM

I agree with the lack of the serial number on the frame. You might want to check your local laws on such things. In my state it is a crime to possess a gun that has had the serial number removed.

2152hq · #7 01-18-2008, 07:57 PM

Illinois has a tougher than most law in that they place the removal/obliteration of ANY manufacturers markings (maker, model, ID numbers,etc) in the same class as a serial number removal/obliteration alone. Both the act of doing so and the possession of the defaced firearm. I personally wouldn't mess with that one. Just a big problem waiting to happen IMO.
***********
(720 ILCS 5/24-5)
Sec. 24-5. Defacing identification marks of firearms.
(a) Any person who shall knowingly or intentionally change, alter, remove or obliterate the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer’s number or other mark of identification of any firearm commits a Class 2 felony.
(b) Possession of any firearm upon which any such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated
shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.

rayj101 · #8 01-18-2008, 08:20 PM

Hi, I think that often times, due to confusion, the assembly number(s), mainly that on the frame (behind the crane) is an acceptable identification. The US Army number was keyed (supposedly) to the serial production number and any other numbers were "assembly numbers". I'm pretty sure that my FFL guy used the number behind the crane when he documented my purchase of my M1917 S&W. The US Army number should also appear on the rear of the cylinder, the back of the extractor, the crane arm (visible through one of the charge holes or if you remove the cylinder)as well as on the underside of the barrel when the cylinder is swung out. Often times the US property mark (s) were ground off by Joe as the weapon was "liberated" from government stocks or just for cosmetic purposes. A different number on the underside of the barrel can indicate arsenal rebarreling. Check with your FFL guy and see what he recorded. Regards, Ray

npd136 · #9 01-19-2008, 05:24 PM

The question has to be is where is the primary location of the factory assigned serial number. On the older guns, it's the bottom of the grip frame. It does not matter that the same number is on the cylinder, barrel, ect. as that is not considered the "reciever" of the firearm. The other parts can be replaced. If the primary number has been altered/removed, then possession is a violation. It is best to consult with the BATFE and have the number restamped if nessesary.

Deacon KC · #10 01-19-2008, 07:18 PM

This has been an enlightening conversation, especially as I have a C&R license and am not about to endanger it. So today I called a dealer who I have used for many years, who also deals heavily with surplus arms and asked if he had dealt with this before. In the past, ATFE has accepted the number stamped on the receiver, under the crane if the other is damaged or removed, as it is still on the frame. I also know a couple of ATFE investigators and am calling them Monday just to make sure that is accepted, and going to get a letter in writing. The receiver number is 34640, anybody got an idea on the build date?

digi-shots · #11 01-19-2008, 08:18 PM

Deacon,

Is that a small 'eagle head' on the left side of the frame, just behind the trigger?

Starting in late May 1918, the 'eagle head' and inspector number was used to show final inspection.

Deacon KC · #12 01-19-2008, 08:44 PM

Linda, you have great eyes! Yes it is an eagle.

Deacon KC · #13 01-19-2008, 08:45 PM

Steve, yup that is the number I am referring to. Apparently ATFE has used that number for transfers, etc, when the sn is gone.

powerkicker · #14 01-20-2008, 06:35 PM

I'd leave well enough alone. What year did serial numbers become mandatory?

Art Doc · #15 01-20-2008, 07:53 PM

Any gun with the serial removed is illegal under federal law. The ATF may allow the number to be re-stamped if it can be determined what the correct number is for the gun. Is the serial stamped on the barrel and cylinder as is the case with other old S&Ws? If so, that number could be re-stamped on the frame. If the correct serial is not on the gun someplace the ATF would likely declare it as contraband and confiscate it for melting.

You can say nothing, of course, and who would know unless you sell the gun and a dealer wonders where the number went.

powerkicker- Serial numbers are required as of 1968 but even an older gun cannot have the number removed if it had one.

Deacon KC · #16 01-20-2008, 08:43 PM

Yup, that is why I'm having it followed up. I'm not going to hang myself for something so minor that could become major.

2152hq · #17 01-20-2008, 10:17 PM

Serial numbers were required long before the GCA68 I believe, though not on all firearms mfg in the USA. The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 first prohibited the alteration, removal or obliteration of a manufacturers ser# as a Federal offense, but I'm not sure if that particular law was first to require ser#'s (firearms identification number) on guns mfg in the USA. Up till '68, ca.22rf long guns and all shotguns were not required to have ser#'s but alot of mfg's did number them. After GCA68, all firearms mfg'd and imported into the USA were required to be #'d. FFA'38 first established the FFL system also.
It wasn't uncommon for US custom makers in the preWW1 to mid 1930's period to grind off the markings including the serial number of rifles being customized if the markings were in a spot not suitable to the builders wishes. Griffin&Howe and others even advertised that this would be done. They sometimes did add their own 'in house' number but they were not manufacturers and the number was only a sequence or assembly number. That practice of removal seems to have stopped right around 1938.
>
DeaconKC..Hope you do make out OK with the 1917..keep us posted

Stophel · #18 01-21-2008, 06:32 AM

You've already got the gun, asking everyone if it is "legal"....ESPECIALLY asking someone in the ATF is just stirring up a hornets nest. Keep it and be happy. No one needs to know anything about the serial number.

s&wchad · #19 01-21-2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

...If the primary number has been altered/removed, then possession is a violation...

+1 npd136

DeaconKC,
It appears that the frame serial numbers have been removed. Can you make out the numbers on the butt of the gun? The frame serial numbers are the ones that matter under Federal law and possession of a gun with the numbers obliterated is a felony. Why would you consider keeping it?

Even if you can make out the butt numbers, the gun is pitted and has been poorly reblued. It's definitely not an arsenal refinish. There's a big chunk missing from the left stock. The upper side plate screw is gone and it appears that the trigger has been blued. I’d return the gun pronto.

Deacon KC · #20 01-21-2008, 09:12 AM

The seller has still not returned my call. Hopefully he will today. If not, it goes back tomorrow.

Art Doc · #21 01-21-2008, 09:18 AM

You never answered my question. Is the serial on the barrel and cylinder?

If so, here's what I would do.

I would buy a set of number stamps and put the number on the frame under the stock. There's no reason to believe the serial off the parts isn't correct for the gun, someone just got carried away with the polishing during the refinish.

I would re-stamp the number and keep the gun.

Deacon KC · #22 01-21-2008, 03:22 PM

I just spoke with the dealer and we have provenance on the history and background of the gun. The SNs are still on the barrel and cylinder, so now it just becomes a matter of getting the ok letter to restamp the butt with the correct number.

John Deere · #23 01-22-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stophel:
You've already got the gun, asking everyone if it is "legal"....ESPECIALLY asking someone in the ATF is just stirring up a hornets nest. Keep it and be happy. No one needs to know anything about the serial number.

For the most part I agree. If you really like the revolver, keep it.

Of course, you might return it and find an even nicer one that doesn't have the serial number problems that your gun has.

Honestly, if it were me, I'd never have purchased a firearm that didn't have its original SN intact. But that's just me. I'm just trying to give you another way of looking at the situation.

Go with what your gut tells you to do! Good luck either way!!

JD

Deacon KC · #24 01-22-2008, 06:03 PM

Well, talked with ATF today. It is ok to have the original number restamped, so I will have it done on the side of the frame, under the grip panel so there is no question of trying to "alter" the number. A letter is also on it's way explaining the procedure.
On the matter of keeping it, with the missing number, I am not about to endanger my license, my family's livelihood and prison for a revolver, any revolver. I was curious as to what the legal recourses were in a matter like this, as many very good guns are out there like this. How can an individual reclaim one, rather than seeing it destroyed.
All that said, again, a number destroyed in good faith [ignorance] is world's apart from one that was mutilated to try to hide it's past.

npd136 · #25 01-22-2008, 07:34 PM

I understand your reasoning. Is it a violation of the law to possess? Yes. Would you be charged under those curcumstances? Probably not. Would it be seized and destoyed? Yes. Criminal intent is not needed to be a voilation, but to get a prosecutor to file is another matter. My father gave me a very nice Colt DA 38 that my greatgrandfather owned. When I looked it over I found that the serial number had been ground and filed away. I removed all the useable parts and destroyed the frame. As much as I hated to do it, as you said, it was not worth the risk. The advantage you have is being able to locate the number and to restamp it.

Deacon KC · #26 01-22-2008, 08:41 PM

Very well put. In 99.9999999% of the cases like this, it would have been a no-brainer to return the gun.

Art Doc · #27 01-22-2008, 10:05 PM

Nobody is ever prosecuted for these. Happens all the time to folks who buy guns not realizing the number has been removed. They just confiscate the gun.

You have the original number, just stamp it on the frame and be done with it. You are not risking your license, or freedom or anything else. It's not that big a deal.

53wrenches · #28 01-23-2008, 08:44 PM

Could all this be be explained by the forum name: Deacon53?

The resistance to sin and commit a crime against the state may be the part of the issue here...Common sense may be the key to this post, given the possible position of this poster.....

chillypepper · #29 01-24-2008, 02:59 AM

it is posible to have the numbers raised. it involves striping the finish off and apliing an acid. the acid reacts with the steele and shows a pattern caused by the stamping process, that actually distorts the steele. even if the numbers are totaly ground off. the numbers can be read in this manner, its only a matter of checking the numbers (to make sure its not stolen) and having them restamped.
there used to be a huge market for (stolen)motorcycle frames. these would have the vin # removed and then a fake one stamped over it. acid rasing would show the truth to what was altered every time. however there are ways around this, and it's not very hard to do. but i'm not gonn'a put it out on public air waves. but theres also ways to test for this aswell.
and i certanly would have the numbers restamped in a differant location, but you be required to put them in the original location. i just dont know the law on that one. good luck. c.p.

Stophel · #30 01-26-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by npd136:
I understand your reasoning. Is it a violation of the law to possess? Yes. Would you be charged under those curcumstances? Probably not. Would it be seized and destoyed? Yes. Criminal intent is not needed to be a voilation, but to get a prosecutor to file is another matter. My father gave me a very nice Colt DA 38 that my greatgrandfather owned. When I looked it over I found that the serial number had been ground and filed away. I removed all the useable parts and destroyed the frame. As much as I hated to do it, as you said, it was not worth the risk. The advantage you have is being able to locate the number and to restamp it.

That's pretty sad that you did that. What risk? I mean, who's EVER going to know that the serial number was removed? Who's EVER going to know that you even have the gun? The ATF must be happy to know that they have people THAT spooked.

Deacon KC · #31 01-26-2008, 07:04 PM

First off, I work with ATF Investigators as part of my job as a Parole Agent. The guys out of the St. Louis office are great people who are out to nail criminals, not crucify the honest. I know there have been some hideous abuses by ATF over the years, but I was able to get a real answer that shows an honest person can get treated fairly with an honest problem. It might not be the same everywhere else. I did wind up sending the pistol back, but that was not because of the SN, but rather because the US markings being gone. So unfortunately, I'm once again on the lookout for a 1917.

digi-shots · #32 01-26-2008, 07:31 PM

Deacon,

Sorry this one didn't work out. I have a feeling a better deal will be coming your way soon!

Deacon KC · #33 01-26-2008, 07:42 PM

Thanks, I will find one eventually. I am a collector/shooter of WW1 and 2 firearms, so the martial markings are important to me.

John Deere · #34 01-29-2008, 12:12 PM

I, like you, prize the US markings on military issue guns, so I'm not surprised you sent it back (which is what I would have done as soon as I opened the box and took a look at the gun).

There are quite a few out there, so it should not be all that difficult for you to find a really nice one. Best of luck in your search!

JD