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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 11-23-2006, 12:54 AM
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Can anyone tell me how old this ammo is? What this box of ammo might be worth? (Yes, I think it's worth more than the $2.25 price marked on it! ) And, maybe something about the tax stamp? Thanks!




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Old 11-23-2006, 05:14 AM
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Its not original RM ammo. That had large pistol primers and is very easy to identify. My guess is that its postwar, but still very collectable. Keep it, don't shoot it up.

The lead bullets did tend to foul the bore due to the high velocity and the fairly soft lead. Just not a problem.

Someone else needs to ID the time frame of the box. I've never seen a book that identifies boxes and the times they were produced. I've always gone back and dug out old American Rifleman magazines for the ads, using them to approximate the years. The problem is that Remington and Winchester didn't always show pictures of boxes in the ads.

TN always used to put tax stamps on their ammo. Living fairly close to them, we saw that on ammo for years at gunshows. Many vendors either came from there or bought ammo from that area. All it does is tell you where it started its retail life.
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:00 AM
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I don't know squat about dating ammo, but this must be early stuff, as it has the large primer:

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Old 11-23-2006, 03:23 PM
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Yep, thats the stuff!
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:01 PM
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It's not often (these days ) that I disagree with my esteemed friend Dick Burg. However, until recently I also believed that these boxes were post-war. Then I bought a couple of guns that went to Western in 1936/7 and began to take more interest in the company. As part of this interest I "acquired" a few pre-war Westerm ammo catalogs from Ebay and, lo & behold, there were these 357 boxes exactly as pictured above. The rest of the Western boxes in the shown in the catalog picture are clearly the pre-war target style - as per the style of the .32 S&W Long Western box at the bottom of the pic below. In the catalog, only the .357 Magnum appears to be in the Super-X packaging.

Re the small primer, I agree that Winchester and Remington used large primer initially, as did Peters. However, I've come across some Western test ammo that supposedly dates from 1938 and is clearly small primer (see pics below). Now, we might speculate (and you know how I love to do that ) that perhaps Western were the people that developed small primer magnum ammo and did so in the late 30's... That might also explain their need to purchase test guns in 1937 (factory letters clearly state "for testing purposes").

Thoughts anyone??

Butch - to answer your original question. I paid $100 for a box in Tulsa and thought I'd done well. Hope it helps.







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Old 11-23-2006, 09:03 PM
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Guys,
what we need is an old employee from Winchester-Western, and another from Rem-Peters. Look at the 2nd pic in this thread- see that lot number on the end flap? That would tell us a lot- IF we spoke the language. And NO, don't assume the 69 that starts it off is the year- it is likely NOT that simple, on purpose. manufacturers don't want their codes to be THAT easy to read. It could be a batch #, or machine #, or employee#.

Dave- you gonna shoot those blue pills? Very interesting.
I agree that NOT all pre-war 357 and 38/44 ammo is large primer. No hard evidence at hand, but much empirical evidence over the years. I need to get my library set up....
I stumbled on a bit of ammo recently. I'll post some pics when I get caught up on the selling.
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:05 PM
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To add to the confusion, I am holding a full Peters box exactly like the one pictured by Michael. But it has the small primers. The lot number in the left flap is: F13N 162

I also have two boxes of the Western Super-X .357 just like Butch pictured. Both of mine are identical except that it is obvious that the printing is from different batches since the "Coated Bullet" and the "158 Grain" are slightly different type sizes (only a couple of points, I'd guess). One of them says "Lubricating Alloy" under the Lubaloy and the other doesn't. On the one which doesn't say "Lubricating Alloy", a dense black line has been printed over "Nickel Plated Case". The projectile in both is lubaloy and one case is nickel plated and one isn't. The non-plated rounds have a second crimp.

Ray Giles just published a beautiful book entitled "One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes 1856-1956". Most of the boxes are of rifle cartridges but the style of boxes should also carry over into the revolver lines. Ray's web site is: www.rtgammo.com

Bob
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Old 11-24-2006, 09:31 PM
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In Ray Giles book, mentioned by Bob Bettis, the Western box posted by Butch is pictured as being the 1939-style box and was used until 1945-46.

David
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Old 11-24-2006, 10:20 PM
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Yeah, like I said it's in the Western catalog of that year. Glad Ray Giles agrees of course, but...
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:12 PM
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Dave,

I'm pretty sure the white box 60,000 ammo you show is used for proofing guns... that is to say it is about 2x the usual pressure of the ammo to be used in the gun. This is the ammo that was referred to as "blue pills" in at the S&W factory... as it was marked with blue so it would not accidently be used for ordinary use... I would expect that ammo is worth quite a lot...

It would also be very interesting to see what powder is loaded in those cases... probably the Winchester equilvalent DuPont #5 or Bulls-Eye.

That is really a great find Dave...

V/r

Chuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by merlindrb:
It's not often (these days ) that I disagree with my esteemed friend Dick Burg. However, until recently I also believed that these boxes were post-war. Then I bought a couple of guns that went to Western in 1936/7 and began to take more interest in the company. As part of this interest I "acquired" a few pre-war Westerm ammo catalogs from Ebay and, lo & behold, there were these 357 boxes exactly as pictured above. The rest of the Western boxes in the shown in the catalog picture are clearly the pre-war target style - as per the style of the .32 S&W Long Western box at the bottom of the pic below. In the catalog, only the .357 Magnum appears to be in the Super-X packaging.

Re the small primer, I agree that Winchester and Remington used large primer initially, as did Peters. However, I've come across some Western test ammo that supposedly dates from 1938 and is clearly small primer (see pics below). Now, we might speculate (and you know how I love to do that ) that perhaps Western were the people that developed small primer magnum ammo and did so in the late 30's... That might also explain their need to purchase test guns in 1937 (factory letters clearly state "for testing purposes").

Thoughts anyone??

Butch - to answer your original question. I paid $100 for a box in Tulsa and thought I'd done well. Hope it helps.
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:02 PM
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Guys

I'm guilty of a minor (?) oversight.

I should have said that if the box has the words "Division of Olin Industries Inc" printed below the line "Western Cartridge Company, East Alton, ILL, USA" then the box is post 1944. If it does not have that extra address line then it's pre 1944. The box posted by Butch is, therefore, pre 1944.

Apologies. I had this in my notes but didn't make it clear in my original reply.
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
And, maybe something about the tax stamp?
Butch-
Some states tax ammo, the money to be used for Conservation, or whatever the politicians want to spend it on. SC is one I see all the time. GA does not.
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Apologies. I had this in my notes but didn't make it clear in my original reply.
Dave,
Roy said you should be fined one box of pre-war 357's.
I can collect 'em anytime it's convenient.
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:55 PM
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There's a reason why this forum is one of the two best places on the internet....thanks for some great info guys!

It would appear that this box of ammo was likely made sometime between 1939 and 1944, and it probably has enough monetary value that I shouldn't shoot it.

Now all I have to do is decide what to do with it.....
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:58 PM
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I agree, definitely don't shoot it!

Probably made closer to 39 than 44 as war time production took most of their resources. My understanding is that most of that sold from 1942 onwards was stock in hand prior to that date.

Perhaps you should let me have it so I can pay the fine imposed by Roy/Lee above?
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:08 PM
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IIRC they still have tax stamps on ammo in TN....anyone?

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Old 12-01-2006, 03:29 AM
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According to Jinks, the Winchester box on the right was the first commercial production cartridge for the .357 Magnum.
Enjoy
Chuck

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Old 12-01-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by merlindrb:
Guys

I'm guilty of a minor (?) oversight.

I should have said that if the box has the words "Division of Olin Industries Inc" printed below the line "Western Cartridge Company, East Alton, ILL, USA" then the box is post 1944. If it does not have that extra address line then it's pre 1944. The box posted by Butch is, therefore, pre 1944.

Apologies. I had this in my notes but didn't make it clear in my original reply.
Dave,

Thanks for that clarification. The box that I described as having the "Nickel Plated Case" is without the Olin Industries label while the box that has the "Nickel Plated Case" lined out does have the Olin Industries label. Lots of subtleties here! Should be a real fertile field for some research.

Bob
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Old 12-01-2006, 01:09 PM
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Bob - I keep trying to pick up Western pre-war catalogs as they seem to be the best source of info to work from. Not a lot of variety though

Chuck - nice pre-war winchester box. Great condition. Here's a group picture showing a few pre-war boxes including a rare Dominion (with no rounds in it! ). The 3 boxes of the left side of pic 1 are large primer.

Interestingly I've yet to find a Western box with large primer ammo, which kind of supports my theory that Western pioneered small primer magnum ammo.

Anyone got any Western large primer .357??


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Old 12-02-2006, 01:13 PM
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Here are a few more .357 boxes. Note that there are 5 Western Super X boxes, all of which are different. The white one on the bottom left and the yellow one on the bottom right are both Metal Piercing. The yellow one in the bottom middle is not metal piercing and differs from the one on the right by one digit in the stock number. The two blue and yellow boxes on the middle row are both Lubaloy but one is a nickel plated case and the other is not plated (Olin Industries).





I'd love to hear from anyone who can help date the time frame of any of these.
Bob
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Old 12-02-2006, 07:10 PM
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Bob

The Peters is pre-war. You can tell from the picture box style and the address on the back. Pre-war has the Cinncinnati address, post-war has the Remington Bridgeport (?) address. Remington was bought out by DuPont in 1933 and Remington/Dupont bought Peters in 1934. Remington closed the Peters factory in Cinncinnati just before the war and re-opened it only for war-time ammo production. A pic of a post war style box is below - totally different style (and address) as you can see.

The Remington box is just post war I believe. Pre-war Remington .38's are generally in the dog-bone boxes. .357's are in the style in my picture above. I have seen .38's in the same style but they all had large primers. I believe they created that style pre-war just for the Hi-Speed cartirdges. I'm sure there are some Remington experts on here who can add to this.

Re the Western boxes, the 2 blue and yellow boxes are pre-1944 if they don't have the bottom line of the address as "Division of Olin Industries Inc", post-1944 if they do. (You might like to note that from 1954 the boxes were labelled "Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation".) The Yellow boxes with the red cross are mid-late 50's and the white box with red cross is mid- late 60's.

Hope it helps.
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Old 12-02-2006, 07:51 PM
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Dave,

Thanks for that info. It's very helpful and I'll go though my ammo locker tomorrow and make notes on everything.

And I thought that S&W boxes were confusing! They're nothing compared to the ammo manufacturers.

Bob
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Old 05-05-2007, 02:46 PM
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I ran across this excellent thread in my desire to learn about a box of ammo I picked up this week and thought I would add some pics and details that are a bit different than those already posted in case someone else is trying to research this ammo in the future. This box is very similar to one that 29-1 had provided but has "Nickel Plated Shell" stamped on the box top in the first pic. The info on one of the sides is also different. The end flap (not pictured) has a lot number of K 3570T and the tuck in flap has a caution statement on the inside that states:

To insure the complete absence of corrosive fouling, before commencing the use of Staynless Ammunition, both new and old barrels should be flushed inside with a hot solution of washing soda or soap, or with boiling water and then wiped dry. We do not recommend the reloading of these shells.

A previous poster, I think on another thread, mentioned how much gunk was deposited from some of this earlier lead ammo.

Anyway, I thought it was cool enough to add to the bank of knowlege here.

Ed
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Old 05-05-2007, 05:05 PM
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Ed,

Nice box. The overprint stamp of the "Nickel Plated Shell" just emphasizes how difficult it is to get a grip on these things.

Did you find it at the Dallas Show? I didn't find as much collectable ammo there as usual. I did pick up a couple of boxes of old .38 S&W... an early Remington Kleanbore box and a VERY early full box of UMC Black Powder.

Bob
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Old 05-05-2007, 05:20 PM
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Bob:
No, I didn't get it at Dallas although I did get a full box of older Remington Kleanbore in 38 S&W for $5. I saw a ratty box with pointed .357 magnums that, in retrospect, might have been some of the metal piercing stuff that I did not act upon.
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Old 05-05-2007, 05:34 PM
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Yep, Ed. The "pointy" ones would have been the metal piercing ones all right. I missed seeing those.

Bob
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Old 05-05-2007, 06:24 PM
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That's a good find Ed.

Were the "pointed" ones Winchester or Western? There's an example of the Western below. They're all rare, but Winchester Metal Piercing are extremely unusual.

Dave

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Old 05-05-2007, 07:19 PM
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Dave:
I've been trying to recall who the manufacturer was or what the box looked like but I'm afraid I have wiped it from my hard drive. Another that I didn't get from the same guy (I think I was going to go back later and then ended up forgetting) was a pristine box of .41 Long Colt, full of rounds and wrapped in plastic. The guy said he might have to get 50 bucks for it and I knew a guy who said he would credit me $100 for the Colt box toward a RM trigger/hammer combo. But then I realized I forgot where the RM guy lived (you can see I am having some recall issues). So I put the purchase on hold while I walked the rest of the gunshow and talked with Bob about his $300 Cokes and he said he was flexible on the price and could go up to $400 if I insisted. So that threw me off and I forgot about the Colt ammo and the pointy ammo.
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:34 PM
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Thread resurrection.

I have tagged this RM ammo thread in my favorites since there are so many excellent pics (Micheal Stern, what happened to yours?) and it is so helpful in identifying old boxes. I received the book to which Bob Bettis referred, One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes 1856-1956 earlier this year and it is my second most used gun book. Ray Giles and Dan Shuey did an incredible job of putting together this reference and the color pictures are very nice. It would make a great Christmas present.
One box that caught my eye was the US Cartridge Co. .357 box on page 284 (posted below) which has the caption referring to it as "Thought to be Winchester's first .357 Magnum offering..." I contacted Mr. Giles and asked permission to post that picture, which he granted and also added the following statement:
"The "1935" style box by Win would have been issued at about the same time as the US Cartridge Co box so there's no way to prove which is the earlier. My theory has been that the US Cartridge Co box came first, Winchester having relegated it to USCCo for a "trial run" before it was known whether or not the cartridge was going to be successful. When it was met with some enthusiasm (my theory goes) Winchester added it to the line in late 1935 (though it was not cataloged until 1936)."

Everything in bold is Mr. Giles' statement. I just thought that the info in this thread was worth adding onto. The 1935 style box, yellow/red/blue, is like the one Chuck (29-1) posted near the top of this page and is the one I had written to Mr. Giles about.
Again, I encourage anyone interested in these ammo boxes to obtain a copy of this book. Bob provided a link on the first page.
Ed
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:49 PM
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Ed

That's a really unusual box. I'd love to add one of those to my small collection of pre-war boxes.

For those who don't know Ray Giles, co-author of the above mentioned book, he has a large table of ammo at the Tulsa show and is always willing to help and answer questions.

At this Fall show I came across a box of Winchester pre-war 357. The stall holder had put them aside for Rays examination and purchase. When Ray found out that I was also chasing them he stepped aside and let me buy them for an excellent price. A VERY VERY nice man!
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:49 PM
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:11 PM
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Jim:
I found your post from July of last year also. That is about the cleanest box of that era that I have seen. Very nice. The ammo also appears to have the large primer. I recently found some Western .38 Special of that era that has large primers.
Ed
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:51 AM
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Ed,

Thanks for reviving this thread with a very desirable box. There are some terrific pictures and date info here.

Dave,

Sure good to see you're still around. It's been too long and we miss your posts!

Bob
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:23 AM
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Now that's as nice a box of pre-war magnum ammo as I've ever seen. Very nice SRT - congrats!

Bob - it's good to be back, thank you. Hopefully I'll post some of my most recent acquisitions over the next couple of weeks. I've picked up a couple of beauties from Dick Burg that I'm looking forward to sharing.
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:46 AM
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Dave:
Does your box of metal piercing ammo have the blue X on the ends, like the one in the pic below, or a red X? I found these recently, both pre-war I believe.
I also located some ballistics info from an early 50s Winchester ammo handbook giving the .357 Magnum Metal Piercing Super-X 158 gr. muzzle velocity as 1450 fps with energy at 690 ft.lbs. and penetrating 12 soft pine boards, 7/8" thick at 15 ft. All from an 8 3/8" barrel. For some reason there is no mention of the round/cartridge in a 1941 Winchester handbook.
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:13 PM
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Ed,

I have two boxes of Western Super-X .357 Magnum ammo similar to yours. (Mine aren't metal piercing, however.) On both of mine the X on the end is red. The only difference in my two boxes is that on the top of one, the line NICKEL PLATED CASE was printed over with a solid black line.

I was told by an ammo collector that the box with the NICKEL PLATED CASE dated to 1939 through 1944 and the box with that lined out was after 1944.

I also have a box of Peters HIGH VELOCITY .357 Magnum similar to your .38 Special and I believe that dates from the late'30s to early '40s.

Bob

I just remembered that I pictured these boxes earlier in the thread but I don't think that I had the dates at that time.
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:29 PM
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Thanks, Bob. Most of the ones I have seen had a red X on the end. I wonder if different years of production had different colors. Unfortunately, all of the Winchester and Western catalogs of that era that I have seen only had B&W drawings or photos of the boxes.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:14 PM
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I recently contacted Ray Giles regarding some pre-war boxes and mentioned this thread. He was interested in the content and mentioned that he could most likely firm up some dates (or eras) for the boxes shown over these 3 pages. I gathered that we may not be exactly accurate in dating some of them. He said he could help if we could supply him with more pictures of the back sides of the boxes that are pictured and the flap codes which I assume are the numbers stamped in ink on the inside of the end flaps (but could also be the K codes on the outside ends). If any of you would find this useful, I would invite you to re-post with the additional info or I would be willing to accumulate pics and codes of those who don't want to re-post. Beside Ray's and Mr. Shuey's book, I am not aware of a resource which encompasses multiple manufacturers/dates of these boxes. And their book primarily focused on rifle cartridges although there are some handgun rounds included. Thought it might add to our knowledge.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:55 PM
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Ed,

This is a real chance for us to finally gain some definitive information on some of the older ammo from one of the most respected ammuniton collectors in the business. Thanks for contacting Ray.

I just looked in my ammo locker and I probably have upwards of 50 or more boxes of old ammo from the first half of the 20th Century. Unfortunately, most of the boxes are sealed up in plastic for display purposes. If he wants the product numbers from the end of the box I can probably make a list of those, however, if I need to open the plastic and copy the lot numbers inside, that may take a while.

I wonder if Ray would consent to writing an article dealing with ammo for the early hand ejectors (i.e. .38 S&W, .38 Spl., .38/44, .357 Mag., .44 Spl.).

Bob
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:31 AM
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I recently bought a box, which had originally housed 50 pre-war Winchester .357 magnum cartridges, from a young lady. She asked me if I needed any ammunition to go with it and I replied that I thought that would be fitting. She went through her drawers and came up with about 20 cartridges of .357 magnum. They were not all of Winchester make as about 6 were from the Western Cartridge outfit. They all had been reloaded with a jacketed soft point bullet but one thing caught my eye as I studied the other end. One (only one) of the cartridges with the Western Super X headstamp had a large primer inserted. Odd in that earlier in this thread no one had claimed to be in possession of any pre-war (or post-war) WESTERN .357 magnum cartridges fitted for a large primer. I thought I would post a pic with comparison cartridges flanking it in case it would be of interest. Respectfully submitted.
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:53 PM
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Ed

I completely agree with you, as I said in our email exchange, that's the first ever large primer pre-war Western case I've ever seen. Congrats on finding it!
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:24 AM
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Dave:
Referencing your comment on page 2 regarding Winchester .357 Metal Piercing, have you ever seen any pre-war boxes of this stuff? I have been accumulating Winchester ammo catalogues from that period (1941 is the latest) and can't find any reference to that being chambered in .357 magnum. The '41 catalogue has only one loading which is the 158 grain lead bullet. Just wondering if you or anyone else has any pics of any pre-war in this MP configuration.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:12 AM
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Is this in need of becoming a Sticky??? Great thread.
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:49 PM
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Ed

I'll try to dig around the ammo cabinet and see if I can find an example. You never know...
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:03 PM
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Here are three 1930 style "picture" boxes of Peters 357 ammo. Staged with (on top) a Pre-War Non-Registered 357 Mag, SN 62xxx, and a Registered 357 Mag, Reg No. 2224.



The pictures were shot in fluorescent light and he camera white balance was set to compensate. The color difference between the boxes in the pictures does not show in full spectrum light. I can't say if the color difference is real or or a photo effect.

At first glance at the top, sides and the end panels the boxes look the same. Note the same code, 3575, on the end panel.




But each box contains a different variation of this loading. The top box contains nickel cases with small primers, the middle box has nickle cases with large primers and the bottom box has brass cases with large primers. No where on the boxes is the type of case called out. Note the different stampings on the inside of the end flaps. Also, the Circled "P" logo on the lower left corner on the top of the lower box has Reg info in red. The logo on the other boxes do not. Was this an early practice that was later discontinued?



The backs of the boxes show the top box has the Bridgeport address, which dates the top box as early to mid 1940's. The bottom two boxes have the kings Mills address dating them from the late 1930's.

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Old 01-09-2009, 06:25 AM
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Mr. Rush:
Very interesting variations on the ammo. In the link below, m-1911 has even another address variation at the bottom of the post. And if you read Jim's (SRT) views, the Bridgeport address doesn't necessarily indicate postwar production.
Do you have any period Peters ammunition catalogs of which you could post the covers? I have searched high and low for some, and also 30s Remington, without luck. Western and Winchester seem fairly common.
Nice pics.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...321069203#2321069203

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Old 01-09-2009, 09:08 AM
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Thanks for the references Ed. I don't have any period Peters catalogs. If you have not already done so, you might try the guys at the Remington Society. A lot of Remington ammo collectors are members and they may have info on Peters after Remington acquired that brand in the early 1930's.
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Old 01-11-2009, 07:08 PM
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Not 357 boxes, but 4 Early to mid 1930 boxes of high speed loads for law enforcement for use in heavy frame Special handguns such as the Outdoorsman and the Heavy Duty.



The Western "Super Police" 200 grain Lubaloy bullet is pretty hard to find. This box is probably the earliest loading as you can see on the upper left corner of the back it refers to W.C.Co.

The Remington "Dogbone" box of "38-44 S&W Special" was of course expressly loaded beginning in the early 1930's for the Outdoorsman and the Heavy Duty.

As described by Jim(SRT)on the Early 357 Ammo thread, the Peters Highway Patrol in these boxes with Kings Mills address date from at least as early as the mid 1930's.

The Remington green and red Kleanbore box is a post WWII box for most loadings. However, like Bob (Merlindrb) said earlier in this thread, there are exceptions for many calibers including possibly this Highspeed loading. I know Remington produced the 38 Super "Mushroom" bullet loading in this box in the 1930's.

As shown below, all 4 loadings are with small primers.



Here are pictures of the ends, sides and backs of the 4 boxes.





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Old 01-12-2009, 07:56 PM
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Mr. Rush:
Nice photos; thanks for revealing them to us. I don't recall seeing the Remington Hi-Speed box of 158 gr. rounds before.

Below is a collection of the 3 Winchester Super Speed .38 Special options available between 1935 and The War, designed for the .38/44 S&W and others capable of handling the increased performance. The top one is the conventional lead bullet offering while the second one, with the unconventional box design, is the Lead Bearing or Metal Point projectile. This second one has a large primer and both of these have a muzzle velocity of 1,115 fps. The third box contains the metal piercing rounds, small primer, m.v. of 1,175 fps and is the only round of any handgun caliber in the Winchester Ammo guides of 1938 and 1941 to have a metal piercing bullet.


Interestingly, the headstamp on the latter (below) doesn't contain any Winchester or W.R.A. designation, only SUPER SPEED .38 SPECIAL.
The ammo (not shown) in the second box has a headstamp reading W.R.A. SUPER .38 SPL.


The original order form for the pre-war .357 Magnum has a place at the bottom for the purchaser to select the ammo they want used in the sighting process. Although not specified, most are recognizable as representative of particular ammo companies, although I am not familiar with the one at the top of the second column, ...Hi-Velocity. It could be an abbreviation of Peters' High Velocity. Roy has indicated that the .357 Magnum ammo used was Winchester since they cooperated with the development of the cartridge.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:17 PM
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Very nice post Ed. I had not seen the 38 Special super speed loading in the "1932 style" box before other than on page 284 of Ray's book. A very nice find. My guess is that this loading was superseeded by the super speed loading in the "1939" style box you show at the top.

I also like the metal piercing loading in the "1935 style" box. The lack of Winchester reference on the head stamp on these rounds is interesting. I wonder if Western also produced this loading using the same head stamp during this time. Conversely. I wonder if Winchester produced a version of the metal piercing 357 loading during this period using the same Western head stamp as shown for western earlier on this thread.

I'm not sure as to the "38 S&W Special HI-Velocity reference either. Peters produced a Rustless 38 Special High Velocity loading during this time but I'm not familiar with a "HI-Velocity" Loading by Winchester or any other maker. Maybe somebody can shed some light on this question.
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