I was asked to post these pictures -







I suspect we will have an explanation forthcoming .

This serial number is strange - seems to be missing the "S" prefix - I think.

Later, Mike Priwer

I was asked to post these pictures -







I suspect we will have an explanation forthcoming .

This serial number is strange - seems to be missing the "S" prefix - I think.

Later, Mike Priwer

This is the original post I made on Dec. 19, 2007. I was asked for photos and did not know how to attach them so Mike said to send them to him and he would post.

I have inherited a Smith & Wesson 38 Special that has 38 S & W Special CTG on one side of the barrel and on top of the barrel is listed 3 patent dates of Feb 1906, Sep. 1909 & Dec. 1914. The serial number on the butt end of the gun is 65068 and the cyclinder shows 450C8. It has a fixed notched sight. I know it was manufactured after the Dec. 1914 patent date, but the serial number is not one I have seen relative to this type of pistol and the searches I have made. Anyone have any clarity as to what year of mfg. and worth? I was told it originally belonged to an Illinois State Trooper that sold it to my Grandfather.

Here is Mike's original reply:

DK

Well, without a picture you have me guessing.

The 450C8 is not a factory number of any kind. They never used letters.

The real question is - what have you got here, and by that I mean, is it a K frame
or an N-frame ? Or, is it something else .

If its a K-frame, the serial number of 65068 is not compatible with the patent dates
on the barrel. 65068 would be about 1906 . If its a K frame, with a 1914 patent
date, then the serial number should be 6 digits, not 5.

If its an N-frame, then 65068 is a post-WW2 serial number, and should have an "S"
prefix somewhere to the left of the serial number. This would be about a 1946 date.

A couple of question: how old was your grandfather when he got the gun - roughly ?
And, does the extractor rod hang free below the barrel, and is captured at its end by
the extractor lug, OR does the extractor rod reside in a housing that extends below
the barrel ?

Later, Mike Priwer

I would say the same thing Lee said on the original post. My money rides on the cylinder "number" being misread due to being filled with crud. I think it was Glypnir who had the same problem earlier with his wife's RM. Sorry Ian, I couldn't resist.
Is there a number inside the ejector shroud?
It seems there has been discussion here before regarding some immediate post war guns missing the S prefix.
Ed

DK,
this is very interesting. there are several things that are not according to the norm. I think we need some more info from you. First, pull the grips and see if there are any rework marks on the left side. There may be a 3 or 4 digit date code there plus other info. Judging by looking at the picture of the sideplate, the gun appears to have been refinished. With that said, it could account for what happened to the "S" of the serial number. Pre war serial numbers for N frame guns ended in the mid 62000 range.
The next thing that is out of place is the logo stamp on the left side. S&W moved this to the sideplate in about 1936 and the post war transition guns which I believe yours is had the logo on the sideplate.
The barrels used on the early 5 and 6.5" transition guns had the address and patent date roll marks on the top of the barrel like the pre war guns did. When the large knob on the ejector was changed to one of the same diameter of the ejector rod, the stamping of the top of the barrel was stopped.
The transition guns frame was basically the same as the pre war and is why the service grips fit it so well. Check the right grip panel to see if there is a serial number stamped on it. The correct grips for that gun should be post war "high horned" magnas.
Perhaps the serial number on the cylinder was polished off and was restamped incorrectly as the "C" could be a "6" that has been polished/faded over time. 4's and 6's are too far different to be anything but what they are and it could be a mistake and no one noticed at the time to have it fixed.
The other place to look is in the ejector rod housing in the barrel. You may find a "B" for blue and an "S"65068.
If you take the cylinder and yoke out of the gun, look on the flat of the yoke that faces the front of the cylinder and see what the number is stamped there.
Next, are the rear of the hammer and trigger marked at all? Pre war hammers and triggers have "Pat US Off" (close to that, I don't have one at hand to check).
All in all, very interesting but I would bet it is a post war gun and the serial number is S65068. Additionally, I know of a post war HD that has a "C" instead of a "S" in front of the serial number-quality control did not catch that one!
I hope this helps in trying to solve the mystery.
Bill

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DK,
It will be interesting to see if there are any marks under the grips. However, I strongly doubt that is a factory finish that it is wearing now. Even if we can attribute the "plumb" color to the photograph, we can't explain the pulled screw holes and rounded frame edges as other than a non-factory polish job.

The grips are very nice prewar ones and worth a considerable amount.

Bob

Keith

Now I remember !

Bill has recommended the next steps for you. Hopefully there will be
something inside the extractor housing. Just open the cylinder, and take
a good look in that cavity that houses the extractor rod. Whatever number
is in there, is what we are looking for.

The gun is refinished, but that is neithere here nor there. This gun
is a 38/44 heavy duty - the only question is - when was it made. That is
what we need the serial number for.

Bob & Bill - I checked the files on Joes website . The post-WW2 N-frames
all start at S62xxx, and there are no serial numbers without the S . The
butt of this gun, from the pictures, looks to have been worked over - maybe
when it was refinished someone polised off the S - particularly if it was
lightly stamped.

That number on the rear face of the cylinder is confusing - maybe its
been replaced.

So - the saga now continues !

Later, Mike Priwer

Mike,
I agree that it seems to be a post war transition HD and the "S" on the butt had been polished off. The real puzzle to me is the logo stamped on the left side. Maybe the real answer is the factory found an old frame that had not been serial numbered but had the logo stamped in it and never assembled. As S&W never threw anything away, they used the frame and assembled the gun after the war. I think the serial numbers on the rear of the cylinder had been buffed off and in an attempt to put them back on, the gunsmith made a mistake in the number and figured the customer would not catch it and let it go.
It will be interesting to review the addtional info we will receive from the owner.
Thanks,
Bill

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I opt for the Mike Priwer "barrels and barrels of frames" theory.

In my application of this, it explains everything perfectly.

Smith built thousands of frames and serialized them. Someone opened one of the newer barrels, the one with the 65xxxs in it. Before WWII. They built one, maybe a whole barrel full. Then they went back to the older barrels. Just to confuse the heck out of us, of course.

Anybody like my theory?

Why did they put them in barrels anyway? Was there a forging stress relief issue like the casting stress relief issue with castings? Do the forgings need some "barrel age"?

Letter it, Letter it, Letter it.

I'm not embarassed about misreading the number on our Registered Magnum. It was the Registration number, not the serial number. It actually had some bit of corrosion or flashing or something in the bottom that made it look a bit like a 6. Putting some nice reflective gun oil in there made it clear what it really was.



And the letter made it clear which one was right. Especially the first letter, which was not correct.

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Regulate Banks, not guns

I'm no expert on this but the profile of the butt to the grips does not suggest over buffing so as to remove the "S". If you look closely the butt is even to the grips.
DW

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"NUTS"

G

The shipping records are actually pre-printed bound ledgers. They have been
pre-printed with the serial numbers. When a gun was shipped, they would find that
pre-printed serial number, in the appropriate book, and then fill in the rest of
the line with the date, name, and address.

I don't know how far ahead that particular book was pre-printed. Presumably, after
the war, when they started using S prefixes on the frames, either they were able to use
the same book and manually add an S to each entry, or they had another sets of books
printed up.

What I'm getting at is - what would have happened if they made up some guns with
serial numbers that exceeded the pre-printing in the books ?

Maybe the way to letter this gun is to give Roy two serial numbers - one without the
S and one with the S, and ask if he thinks they are the same gun .

Or - maybe DK will find an S inside the extractor housing, or even on the flat of
the yoke .

DW - Maybe that is another question to ask the owner. Do the grips fit really well on the bottom of the butt,
or does it look like the bottom of the grips overhang the butt by some small amount ? In the first picture,
it looks to me as though the rear portion of the butt is a bit lower than the rear half of the right grip panel.


Later, Mike Priwer

could this be an early custome built off a 1917 comercial?

I'm not convinced Mike and that dosen't make me right either. Even the lightest strike would suggest some indication of a stamp. I make my case with the first and last picture. The second picture is too vague.
DW

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"NUTS"

Would anyone accept 35068 as the serial number ?

That would make it VERY early though !

Jerry

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.38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

Jerry

I don't think its a 3, but, I will say that the first 6 looks different from the other
6. Its remotely possible that the first 6 is an overstamp of a 4 -but I think we
are going down the wrong path.

He needs to report back what serial number is inside the extractor housing, and
perhaps also on the flat of the yoke. Neither of those should have been buffed out
in the refinish - they are in well-protected areas.

I did take him 6 weeks to get these pictures to me, so we may be in for a long wait here,
as well !

Later, Mike Priwer

For what it's worth, this gun shipped 8/38 and has the logo on the left.

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SP

What is the serial number range ?

Later, Mike Priwer

Ooops. Correct serial is 56459.

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Mike and SP,
with 60692 and the logo on the left, I think it supports the theory that there were limited exceptions to the norm. I agree with Mike that when he checks the other 2 locations, we should have a clearer picture-unless the barrel and yoke have been changed out!
Bill

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56459 (8/38) is on the left. The 60692 gun is on the right. My goof.

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DW makes a strong point concerning the (seeming) missing 'S'.
That initial '6', as Mike states, is a tad different, but I believe it's just evidence of a harder strike.
Neither supports the polished-off 'S', IMHO.
Can't wait to hear the report back on the gun's other numbers!
Don

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NRA Life

Guys-
I can't believe no one has caught this- THE NUMBER IS UPSIDE DOWN FOR A POSTWAR! That is, on a post war gun, one has the muzzle pointing LEFT when reading the number! That places the S, when present, on the TOE of the frame, NOT the heel.
Also, there was NEVER an S, in my opinion, because the number is centered. When the number has a prefix, the number on a post war gun is offset toward the heel.
I agree, DW, and you and I know that is the original finish on those grips, so they were not sanded down.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lunch pail gun?
DW

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"NUTS"

looking at the rounds in the cylinder i notice that the chambers don't look counterbored. wish i had the thing in my hands to check on some of this.

38 Specials were never counter-bored. It's expected that the gun wouldn't have that feature.

I also wondered about the number facing the wrong way and that number could almost be read backwards, no?

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wasn't sure about that (counter bore), don't know much about hd's. and am trying to study this with one book and not my whole library (rest of the books are at the shop)whenever there is somthing weird i just gotta study into it. at least to find out that i'm still stuborn. and i can't make heads or tails of the #'s but i don't beleave we are seeing them upside down (if i understand what you are saying correctly). and this is gonna dumber than any thing but it almost looks like a 3 stamped over somthing as a first didget. if i had to say that it's not correct. i still lean tward those #'s being correct/unaltered. correct for what? i still don't know. won't till we get some more info/picks/#'s.
# 63068, is what i read.

Possibly the cylinder stamp is 45068 which matches the butt except for the first digit (to me the butt looks like 65068. This would also be a legitimate HD serial number.

The serial should also be on the underside of the barrel. Have you checked that spot? We need a tie-breaker with the cylinder and butt not in agreement.

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You can pick up the link to that picture of the butt, and open the picture with
another program that will magnify it.

I did that, and it looks like that first digit could be a 3. Looks that way, but
maybe not. If you turn it upside down, that 5 is wrong, so we are looking at it
properly.

Its possible that this frame may have been serial-numbered at the very beginning
of a run of frames, and that the operator set the first digit wrong. He may have
realized the error, and gone back and restamped the wrong frames. That first digit
sure looks to be overstamped.

Later, Mike Priwer

Mike:

That is just what I did in my earlier post. It does not show all that well in the photo I posted but does look like it might be a "3" in the Photoshop moniter image when sharpened. That serial number would be one of the VERY earliest HDs though!

Jerry

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And maybe the gun is stolen property with someone trying to alter the serial at some point.

Many possibilities.

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What are the odds of the person having a set of numeral stamps that were the same style and size as those used at the S&W factory.

Yes it is possible, but unlikely.

Bekeart

Another thing that could help solve the mystery is to remove the sideplate and see if the hammer block is there. Also the hammer will have a notch cut in it to accomodate the hammer block. Don't you love a mystery!
Bill

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Jerry

Yes - I did notice your earlier comment. Indeed, it does look like a 3, under
magnification. The serial number on the barrel, assuming there is one, should be
interesting, because presumably the refinishing would not have disturbed it.

Bill

First things first - we have to get dk to respond !

Later, Mike Priwer

Mike,
I checked all the N Frame databases in all calibers and there is not a hit for 35068 or S 65068. We will have to wait on DK as you say.
Bill

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Gents,

I appreciate your efforts here. I am supplying additional photos to Mike who I have ask to post so you might gain additional insight. There was no 3-4 digit rework stamp under the left grip. Only what looks like a small "H" stamped on the lower left corner. The gun was refinished about 10 years ago from sitting in a leather holster for a couple of decades. Small pitting and some slight rust. The right grip panel has what looks like the same 65068 S/N stamped into it. It doesn't show very well in the photo, so I also took a rubbing to see if that helps. The face of the yoke facing the cylinder has 45068 stamped into it as does the recess where the extractor rod sits. The hammer is stamped REG. U.S. PAT. OFF. Let me know if you need anything else.

Thanks again,

DK

Either the first number was badly stamped by S&W when they made it or someone over-stamped the first digit. The correct serial clearly seems to be 45068.

Not too many reasons for over-stamping one digit that I can think of.

Except one.

But since people get upset at me when I mention that possibility I won't.

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Here are two of the latest pictures - showing the serial number in the
extractor housing, and on the rear face of the cylinder.











For whatever reason, that first digit on the butt is an overstamp. This does seem a bit strange, to me.
The grips appear to be 65xxx . Maybe the frame was originally 65xxx, in error. A 4 was over-stamped on the
6, but when the grips were fit, the fitter thought it was 6xxxx, and stamped the grips that way .

DK sent two other pictures, but these two are the better ones.

Later, Mike Priwer

If it is 45068 for the S/N, then what would be the approximate age?

odds are pretty good. the only one in my set thats not s&w correct is the "&" stamp. and i havn't found an iron cross stamp yet. but then i havn't looked for one.

Probably late 1934 or early 1935.

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45068 would probably be a 1935 serial number. my eyes may be deceiving me but the grip serial number looks like 45068. this serial number explains the small logo and every thing else except the over stamp on the butt.
Bill

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