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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #51  
Old 11-13-2015, 05:40 PM
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Hey Hoov, when you picked up your awesome blaster, you didn't happen to see this one lying around by any chance, did ya'?
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  #52  
Old 11-14-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Conti View Post
Hey Hoov, when you picked up your awesome blaster, you didn't happen to see this one lying around by any chance, did ya'?
Ummm...., unfortunately no. But, there is a possibility I know where a friend of my gun is. Tell me more about that one. Is it marked OKCPD? My friend has two RMs and one of them is.
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  #53  
Old 11-14-2015, 11:26 AM
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Jelly Bryce "Lucky Gun" Photo!

This is a link to another thread about it. A lot of people would be interested in just knowing it's in good hands like your Hilbert find.

All the best!
Mike
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:18 PM
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Bump for an interesting thread, don't know how I missed it the first time.
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Old 03-02-2016, 06:11 PM
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Default More S&W LEO Arms

In my collection I am fortunate to have a 4-3/4 inch (1 of 4 per Roy Jinks) RM lettered to a member of the Border Patrol in Arizona and a 3-1/2 inch NRM lettered to a police chief in Tennessee.
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  #56  
Old 03-02-2016, 08:31 PM
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8 yrs old...not bad. What exactly is the standing record for a thread brought back to life?

So far 9 years
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  #57  
Old 03-02-2016, 09:54 PM
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I am surprised that no one has referred the OP to this article about the FBI:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...-fbi-handguns/

While the article could have been so much better than it was, it is a nice little summary. The best part about the article was the gallery of photos, which is apparently no longer available when you click on the link.

As to federal agency firearms from the 1920s to the 1950s, the FBI alone had the Colt Police Positive, Detective Special and variants, Colt Official Police, and various S&W K, J and N frame models.

The FBI tended to issue "duty" guns (four-inch barrels) even though they were to be carried concealed. The Bureau back then had a qualification course that had a stage at sixty (60) yards, and a duty weapon was essential.

The FBI pretty much always issued 38 Special revolvers, leaving the .357 Magnum in the armory, to be drawn when needed, although a great many agents found a way to get one checked out to them permanently.

The last revolver the Bureau issued, the Model 13, was chambered for .357 Magnum, but the standard issue ammo was still the 38 Special +P 158 grain LHP load, with the Magnum ammo authorized on a case by case basis.

An agent friend of mine told me of the time he went to qualify with his Model 13, and the range guy, just to mix it up, required each agent to qualify with the ammo matching the caliber marked on the agent's revolver. My friend was not a happy camper after that firearms day, as he was used to the milder 38 Special load.

From 1920 to 1950, FBI issued these, and perhaps others:

Colt Police Positive, 4 inch
Colt Detective Special, 2 inch
Colt Official Police, 4 inch

S&W M&P or Model 10, 4 inch
S&W Registered Magnum, 5 inch
S&W Model 19, 4 inch round butt
S&W Model 10, 2.5 inch round butt
S&W Model 13, 3 inch round butt

Authorized off-duty or back-up changed over the years, but at times included most steel frame 5 or 6 shot Colt or S&W revolvers. S&Ws in this category were Model 36, 49, 60, among others.

While J. Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson each had several handguns, most of those were gifts to them personally. Hoover's actual "bureau property issue gun," which he kept as his primary carry gun until his death, was his original 3 inch Colt .32 Pocket Positive, Serial Number 156600, and it was still checked out to him when he died. Clyde Tolson was issued a new 4 inch Model 10, Serial Number D138446, not terribly long before his death. While Hoover's issue Pocket Positive is still at Quantico, Tolson's Model 10 was unceremoniously destroyed in the "ordinary course of business" in 2001.

The Bureau also destroyed well over one hundred Registered Magnums which were still in service more than 50 years after they were first issued (a testament to the durability of the N Frame Magnum), this policy having been put into effect by the Janet Reno/Bill Clinton brain trust.

The Bureau never officially issued Colt .45 caliber 1911s, but they did issue a number of Colt 1911s in 38 Super. Actually, they would have been dressed in "A1" guise with the frame scallops, and all the A1 improvements.

I suspect most other federal agencies issued similar models, even if the agency did not have as colorful a history as the FBI.

Basically, it would be fair to say that the federal issue gun between 1920 and 1950 would have been a 2 inch or 4 inch Colt or S&W medium frame revolver in 38 Special. That answer to your original question would be correct perhaps 98% of the time.

Almost as interesting as what they carried is the topic of how federal agents were trained prior to Jeff Cooper teaching us all how to properly use the one-hand weapon, the pistol. Here is a short film you may find interesting:

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Old 03-03-2016, 02:53 PM
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I wasn't aware that the FBI officially issued any guns during the 1920s.
They weren't authorized to arrest, or carry guns until congress gave them that authority in 1934.

I am aware, though, that FBI agents purchased handguns privately and obtained legal carry permits in the field offices they worked in, depending on local and state laws.

Is that information incorrect, Shawn?

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 03-03-2016, 04:02 PM
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I went thru Quantico in 1986. Model 13 with 3" barrel was the issue gun at the time. Policy was you were to carry the .38 158 grain SWCHP ammo in the gun (Winchester was issued to me), but could carry .357 ammo as your reload(s). I carried a personal M66 3" loaded with the 38's and had a Desantis 2x2x2 pouch filled with .357 rounds on my belt and Safariland speedloaders with .357s in the briefcase. Issue .357 ammo was Winchester 145 grain Silvertips.

Also, no airweight guns were authorized, steel framed J frames only. Colts were also banned, I believe Colts were verboten because there were no Colt qualified armorers left at the Gun Vault.

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Old 03-03-2016, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malysh View Post
I wasn't aware that the FBI officially issued any guns during the 1920s.
They weren't authorized to arrest, or carry guns until congress gave them that authority in 1934.

I am aware, though, that FBI agents purchased handguns privately and obtained legal carry permits in the field offices they worked in, depending on local and state laws.

Is that information incorrect, Shawn?

Thanks,
Mike
I believe you are exactly correct, Mike. The original Bureau of Investigation was created as an investigative arm of DOJ and was staffed primarily with people who had expertise in accounting and law. Hoover was in charge for much of the 20s. Firearms were not authorized by Congress nor were they routinely issued. The Dillinger-style bank robbers of the early 30s created an opportunity for federal law enforcement and Hoover brilliantly answered the call(and Congress authorized weapons carry). Initially, most agents were untrained as gun toters. Some few experienced gunfighters like Bryce were recruited to be the first line of gunfighters for the FBI while agents got training. The FBI legend has grown to the point that legend exceeds reality.
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Old 03-04-2016, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malysh View Post
I wasn't aware that the FBI officially issued any guns during the 1920s.
They weren't authorized to arrest, or carry guns until congress gave them that authority in 1934.

I am aware, though, that FBI agents purchased handguns privately and obtained legal carry permits in the field offices they worked in, depending on local and state laws.

Is that information incorrect, Shawn?

Thanks,
Mike
The Bureau of Investigation (BOI) was created in 1908, and continues to this day, although it was renamed Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in 1935. It is well known that the BOI issued guns to agents as early as 1917. Agent Roy McHenry served from 1917 to 1920, and he authored an article in "The Grapevine" in which he said he was issued a .35 S&W Automatic, but because he did not think it had enough "punch" he carried either of two personally owned weapons, a .45 1911 or a 4 inch S&W 38 Special. Another letter shows that one "Agent Harry Jentzer" returned BOI property when he resigned in 1919. Among Bureau property returned was Jentzer's badge #112, Maltby Handcuffs and key, S&W 38 Caliber revolver 214478, a "brief bag," and Code Book No. 96. If agents had no power of arrest, one questions the need for handcuffs.

Albert Pike, the Assistant Chief of the Bureau of Investigation in those days, was in charge of the Bureau's ordnance. Agent McHenry, however, said that agents had to buy their own ammunition.

If Agent McHenry sounds familiar, it is because he co-authored, with Walter Roper, the book "Smith and Wesson Handguns." McHenry, a lawyer, worked for the Department of Justice after leaving the Bureau in 1920. He talked Mr. Pike into ordering 4 inch S&W revolvers to issue instead of the .35 Automatics.

Agent McHenry said that no one questioned the authority of agents to carry weapons as it was seen as part of their job. Some agents were known to obtain carry permits from local authorities at the time, but not all did. Nor, were they required to do so.

As to power of arrest, agents of the Bureau had the same power of arrest as any citizen, which was to arrest for felony, misdemeanor or breach of the peace. Agent McHenry said that BOI agents, in addition, were often commissioned as federal marshals just to be sure of their power of arrest. It should be noted that no federal law authorized federal marshals to carry weapons at that time either. Apparently, if you were commissioned in law enforcement, people expected the agent to be armed and no one really questioned it.

It is well known that agents carried issued weapons prior to the 1934 legislation, and that agents made arrests prior to the 1934 legislation. What, then, was the purpose of the 1934 legislation? No one is alive today who can tell us for sure, but the best educated guess made by people who have studied the matter is that the law was passed so that agents would have a uniform standard no matter in what jurisdiction or state they were assigned. Thus, instead of having to learn the laws of arrest for each state, one federal law allowed the federal agents the same power of arrest everywhere. The same reasoning is given for carrying firearms. The 1934 Act more or less codified the standard common law definition of citizens' arrest, but it made that standard the same for federal agents regardless of where they were serving. Prior to that time, such matters as arrest and carrying weapons were matters of local law. Mr. Hoover desired, it is thought, to have a single standard on these topics that could be taught to agents that would apply no matter where they served.

Finally, there are many, many well-known and well-publicized Bureau shoot-outs prior to the 1934 Act. So, it is clear that agents had firearms. Were they issued? Clearly, some were, although agents often bought and used their own weapons. We know the Bureau issued weapons prior to the 1934 Act because there are FBI documents showing the inventory counts as to the number of Colt and S&W revolvers in inventory at each field office. In addition, well-known agent Ralph Colvin, in 1933, wrote a letter to Mr. Hoover in which he essentially requested more firepower in the war on the Dillinger-era gangsters. In the letter he says that, "we only have the small light pistols furnished by the Bureau which are entirely inadequate for the purpose."

Further, the Bureau's 1929 training manual provided:

"Section 11, Firearms: Employees are instructed:

a - That they are legally entitled to carry firearms for defensive purposes.

b - That, however, as a matter of policy, they are not to
carry the same unless such action is authorized by their Special Agent In Charge.

c - That they are never to use such firearms except for strictly defensive purposes.

d - That a supply of firearms is kept in each field office
to be issued, when necessary, to the employees by the Special Agent In Charge."

Lastly, I will point out that the 1933 Weapons Committee met and selected the Colt Police Positive revolver using the 38/44 ammunition the year before the 1934 Act was passed. An inventory was done to determine how many of the revolvers were needed to make sure every agent could be issued the same revolver. The inventory shows both the Colt and S&W revolvers already in stock. The revolvers, holsters and ammo were ordered the year before the law was passed, and Mr. Tolson directed that training begin immediately. It should be noted that in one memo, Mr. Clegg (known as "Troutmouth" behind his back for the unusual way he parsed his lips) wanted agents to check out revolvers only when needed, and he urged that position on Mr. Hoover. Mr. Tolson, on the other hand, insisted that each agent be issued a revolver to kept with him at all times. Hoover followed the advice of Tolson and made sure each agent was armed.

So, there is plenty of evidence that the BOI agents were armed and could make arrests (under the provisions of the laws of each state, there being no federal law on the topics at the time), and the BOI issued weapons at least as early as 1917 (per McHenry). The federal act of 1934 gave a uniform standard that applied everywhere on the topic of carrying arms and making arrests, but certainly did not mean that agents could, for the first time, be armed or make arrests. One need only look at the historical record of many of the gangster era shootouts that occurred prior to 1934 to see that agents were armed and using machine guns prior to 1934.

So, let us put to bed forever the "old wives tale" that the FBI had no power of arrest or authority to carry fire arms prior to 1934. I can see perhaps why people may think this due to it being repeated so often over the years, but the facts show otherwise.

Many of the documents to which I refer here are readily available through FOI requests, some information is from the biography of Hugh Clegg, and some is courtesy of Larry Wack, retired FBI agent and Dr. John Fox, FBI Historian via Larry Wack.

For additional information on the above, check out Larry Wack's web site at:

Faded Glory: Dusty Roads Of An FBI Era

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 03-04-2016 at 09:58 PM.
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  #62  
Old 03-05-2016, 11:38 AM
Joe Kent Joe Kent is offline
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Absolutely superb post by Shawn McCarver !
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:01 PM
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Thanks, Shawn, for the detailed answer.
You are one of the go-to guys for FBI information.

I wonder why so many sources in books and the media cite NFA Act 1934, Volstead, and other congressional actions to "arm" the FBI in 1934? I have read many books on the subject and this is almost universally proffered. That is really dismaying to me.

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Mike
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:42 PM
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A meager addition- these two S. D. Myres holsters belonged to the SAC of the Houston office of the FBI. The revolvers are mine and not from the agent. Not sure of the time frame either although pretty sure they're later than 1950, particularly the thumb break. As I said- meager.
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:55 PM
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Default Here's one of my Fed guns - a Colt

This gun has been passed from a few other Colt collectors to me. It's been shown and discussed on the Colt Forum a number of years ago. Pictures credited to Hugh Clark. (they've been all over the internet before and since, but when I re-posted it a few yrs. ago, he gave me permission to use them. Thanks, Hugh)

It's a "pre" Detective Special. More accurately, a Police Positive Special with a factory issue 2 inch barrel. NOT a rebarreled gun. Colt started advertising the 2" Police Positive Special in 1926. It has the early narrower square butt, replaced by the wider square butt in 1927 on all new production Police Positives regardless of bbl. length. At the end of 1933 and starting 1934, Colt introduced the iconic round butt D.S. and eliminated all square butts from Detective Specials (excepting approx. 5,000 square butt D.S.s sold to the US govt. on a special order 1942-1945. They were distributed to Army Intel, Army Counter Intel, Army C.I.D., Naval Intel, and the OSS).

Colt did not use the Detective Special barrel stamping on these guns until 1927. Either they were still deciding on a new name, or were waiting for new stamps to be fabricated, or both. Between 1926 and 1927, they were stamped 38 Special on the left side of the barrel, and nothing on the right side of the barrel. Parts overlap can be expected, just like with S&Ws. Just as this unadulterated gun wasn't used to fill an order until 1931.

The frame on this one dates to 1928 but the gun was assembled, sold, and shipped to the US Govt. in 1931, to Wash. D.C. One of 577 in the shipment. Paul, the Colt Archivist, did some extra research on the gun and got back to me to say that shipments of 2" Det. Specials, or in some cases, 2" Police Positives, were also shipped to the U.S. Government in Cincinnati, Atlanta, and Chicago, in similar numbers, all around the same time in 1931.

Our martial pistol expert, K. Will, who has forgotten more about US martial guns than I will ever know, thinks this Colt was for the RMS Postal Service, even though it's not RMS stamped, nor has it had stampings removed, nor is it chambered for .38 S&W Long/Colt .38 New Police. That caliber was more popular with the RMS orders than 38 Special was. K. Will advised me although most P.O. guns were R.M.S. and inventory number marked, some were not.

But I respectfully don't think the postal service would have ordered such a large quantity of 38 Special snubs, either. They bought the vast majority of the Bankers Specials Colt made, BTW.
Most Colt Post Office Railway Mail Service guns letter to the R.M.S. P.O., as well. This gun and the rest of the shipments letter only to the U.S. Govt.
They also bought some S&W revolvers over the years.

It's not probable that all the 2"guns in 4 shipments, totaling approx. 1200-2400 revolvers, were sent to the Bureau, as Shawn and others mentioned 4" bbls. were required or preferred (even I know that )
U.S.Federal office buildings in various states, house a multitude of agencies, so I don't think we will ever know exactly what agencies in Atlanta, Cincinnati, Chicago, and Wash. D.C. received 2" bbl. Colt 38 Specials in the first quarter of 1931.

The pictures don't show this gun is almost mint. Excepting where a previous owner had some type of custom front sight bead notched into the sight. Whoever it was issued to must have been a manager or desk pusher who just kept it clean and in his desk or safe, because there are zero signs of carry wear on the entire gun.

The romantic in me likes to think this gun was a Treasury or D.O.J. gun, but we will never know for sure what agency or individual it was assigned to.

However, it is undeniably a "Fed" gun.














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Old 03-05-2016, 04:38 PM
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The Brooklyn Dailey Eagle (NY) April 18, 1916

Wolfe von Igel German Spy arrested 60 Wall St Manhatten.

Von Igel was arrested after a free for all fight. Agent Joseph H Baker and Deputies Storck, Underhill and Gregurvich of the Department of Justice took part against Von Igel and two other men. Revolvers were drawn by the deputies, and the men found in the office and agent Baker suffered sore heads.


Baker and his deputies are all listed as members of the Bureau of Investigations, Justice Department.
They were armed.

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Old 03-06-2016, 05:03 PM
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A contrary thought as to whether the FBI ever issued .45 ACP pistols: just from my memory of reading Larry Wack's Dillinger files, reports refer to the use of "Department" owned .45's.

I recall seeing a single, solitary Official Police listed in the approved list of one un-named agent in the 1986 Miami shoot out reports -- on the Gun Zone, I think. So many arms were listed, I inferred it might not have belonged to one of the main involved agents. That was a pretty late date for Colt to still be listed.

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Old 03-06-2016, 06:12 PM
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Correct! The man who first shot Dillinger, Agent Winstead, did so with his "Division .45 Automatic."

Good memory!
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:43 AM
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Default Early FBI Weapons, Myths And More

Good morning folks:

Judge Shawn McCarver in his post regarding Bureau issued weapons prior to the 1934 Crime Bills is dead on. In 2014 I wrote an article about this which I recently "tweaked" in 2016. If you'd like a copy, you can go to this link and retrieve a copy of "Perpetuating A Myth...1934 Firearms/Crime Bill" at my site here: Firearms Myths, Dillinger's Gun & More

If you go to the Section(s) regarding 1933 Firearms and the Training Section both located in the "navigation" area, you'll see a host of topics substantiated with proof as obtained from FBI files over the last many years. You'll find the official records, in part, of what did and didn't exist in the Field Offices prior to the legislation.

The presence and use of .45s is there also.

At the risk of generalizing, which I hate to do, the 1934 Crime Bill regarding carrying weapons and making arrests really only enhanced what was already going on. The key word is "enhanced." The resulting myth continually perpetuated by those in the media, book writers, critics and others has been a result of misunderstandings, outright distortions, and in many cases a shere lack of research in checking FBI files. As a result, the myth of what the Bureau did and didn't have/use prior to 1934 continues to this very day.

As you may know by now, we can from official records, trace the existence of handguns with the agents as far back as 1912 period and the 1917 period. Some of that evidence is shown at the website in the navigation areas I mentioned above.

Documents available reveal that some extreme care needs to be taken with the topics of "what was issued" compared to "what was available in the Offices." For example, you might find that many of the offices had been issued a certain amount of .45s to be utilized by those agents qualified. That by no means opens the door to believe that ".45s were issued to the agents" as a general practice.

Winstead, and others in the Bureau, utilized Bureau (Division) .45s because they qualified with it at firearms and desired it over the Colt .38. However, there were only a limited amount of .45s avail in all the offices. Records reflect Winstead was issued a Colt .38 upon entry. (Based upon existing evidence, I suspect Winstead "charged out" his .45 from the Chicago FBI inventory and no doubt returned it when he left Chicago. We have never been able to identify or find the .45 he used to kill Dillinger.)

For the newer folks on here, or for those who have perhaps forgotten, I hope that the documents provided at our website will provide some understanding as to what the picture was during the 1930s and prior to the 1934 Crime Bills. Feel free to direct any questions to me about this research via the website or at this forum.

Thanks to all!
Larry Wack
FBI - Retired (1968-2003)
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:24 AM
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Great post.
It's disappointing to me, a private citizen who relies on "history" books concerning the FBI, that there are so many inaccuracies in the numerous books I read on the subject.

I want to fact check another bit here that I read. Is it true Hugh Clegg was the first director of the FBI academy? Was it actually first started in 1935?

Thanks,
Mike

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Old 03-08-2016, 10:39 AM
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While we're on the general subject of the FBI, I would like to take some space here to recommend a fictional series of books to the members who enjoy FBI stories.

Our member Mike Conti, retired lieutenant of the Mass. State Police, a distinguished lawman, and a friend who has penned 2 books about Delf A "Jelly" Bryce. He intends to publish a 3rd book sometime in the future.

Although fiction, these books are very informative and well written. I highly suggest reading them if you are a fan of the subject. There are keen observations of the culture of the times as well as making Agent Bryce and other early FBI luminaries come alive.

Agent Charles Winstead is also in this work, as well as Mr. Hoover. I found the chapters with dialog with J Edgar to be particularly fascinating, as I cannot recall another fictional work where Hoover was featured. If you like fiction about our lawman and the era of the Midwest bank robbers, these books are very engrossing.

He did not know I was going to post this, nor did he request I do so.
I merely think some of you will appreciate these works as we all are with the topic in general.

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Old 03-08-2016, 11:10 AM
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Back in June, 1945, The American Rifleman published an article by some guy named Hoover entitled "The Shooting FBI." The original article has some neat pictures but you can read the text at the link below.

American Rifleman | FBI Firearms Training: The Shooting FBI
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malysh View Post
Great post.
It's disappointing to me, a private citizen who relies on "history" books concerning the FBI, that there are so many inaccuracies in the numerous books I read on the subject.

I want to fact check another bit here that I read. Is it true Hugh Clegg was the first director of the FBI academy? Was it actually first started in 1935?

Thanks,
Mike
Mike, Clegg was an Assitant Director of the Bureau at the time of the Academy's founding and was highly instrumental in its creation in, yes, 1935 when the first class went through.
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:41 AM
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Thanks lw. Just checking the veracity of some info in one of the books I ran down.
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
Back in June, 1945, The American Rifleman published an article by some guy named Hoover entitled "The Shooting FBI." The original article has some neat pictures but you can read the text at the link below.

American Rifleman | FBI Firearms Training: The Shooting FBI
For whatever reason, the way the FBI told the story added to the confusion. Of course, as discussed, this doesn't say agents DIDN'T carry weapons but only that statutory authority was added.

Kwill, please post the other pages. I'd like to add them to my file.

"Law enforcement officers without guns in this modern day would seem paradoxical, yet not so many years ago Special Agents of the FBI were without statutory authority to carry weapons. ...

The months of May and June, 1934, are red-letter months in the history of law enforcement in the United States. .... and on June 18, 1934, Congress empowered Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation to carry firearms and make arrests."
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:32 PM
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I'd forgotten I had this one also with Hoover's by-line.

"Firearms Training in the FBI" by J. Edgar Hoover in the September, 1939 issue of Leatherneck magazine. [Available online from Leatherneck for a fee.]

"Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation were given the authority by Congress to carry firearms on June 18, 1934, and immediately a program was instituted to thoroughly train all Special Agents in the use of various types of weapons."

and ...

[Sorry. This seemed interesting as related to discussions about Quantico, not for the 1934 question.]

"The new Special Agent receives his first training in the use of the revolver at the indoor pistol range in the Department of Justice Building in Washington, D.C. This is an ultra-modern range equipped with electrically operated targets, sheathed with sound-absorbant [sic] material and protected by armor plate steel." ...

"At the present time, the FBI has under construction at Quantico a modern pistol and rifle range along with a barracks building. The range will be equipped with automatic moving targets and other devices designed to provide the most practical and realistic firearms training possible."

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Old 03-10-2016, 09:13 AM
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SG:

Sorry for the delay....

Seems to me to be a mere parroting back of the wording of the actual statute, or close to it. That as opposed to explaining the lengthy and sometimes complicated pre 1934 Legislation policies and procedures that existed. Then again, different wording might have created more writing and explanation. For the sake of early articles, I’m only surmising that the Bureau’s writers in Crime Records felt that a one liner of what the statute said would suffice for readers (and/or maybe simply just “space” restrictions).

This subject is probably better discussed over a few beers at the local pub but we don’t have that luxury. But anyhow, the Bureau made no secret of weapons use prior to the legislation. If we just take the June, 1933 (after the Kansas City Massacre) through to the May/June 1934 legislation, the “whole world” knew of the Bureau’s efforts to obtain more firearms and organize training. After the killing of the agent and officers in Kansas City, it was “balls to the wall.” Those who perpetuated the 1934 weapons myth over the years either didn’t bother to look or somehow missed what was pretty evident. For openers, pre-legislation weapons use in photos and articles surrounding highly publicized Bureau/gangland firefights such as Little Bohemia among others.

Furthermore, if we stay within the narrow confines of just June, 1933 to December, 1933, a couple of highlights missed over the decades:

* With back and forth documentation with the Secretary Of War, the Bureau had numerous training camps in operation in the Washington area with assistance from the Army by July/August, 1933. The press knew about them and made inquiries about training at Ft. Washington, Ft. Meade and others.

* Colt representatives began selling more weapons to the FBI and in June, 1933 the Bureau adopted their .38 Police Positive among others.

* In July, 1933 the National Rifle Association was making police training pamphlets avail to the Bureau as was the War Department.

* By July, 1933 Agents In Charge were making contact with Chiefs of Police in their jurisdictions to assist with training and facilities and within a month or two, training had begun at these facilities across the nation.

Many thanks for your input...
larry wack
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:16 AM
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[QUOTE=SG-688;13898846


"Law enforcement officers without guns in this modern day would seem paradoxical, yet not so many years ago Special Agents of the FBI were without statutory authority to carry weapons. ..."[/QUOTE]

The US Border Patrol still did not have statuary authority to be armed when I joined in 1990. They finally corrected that oversight by the mid 90s immigration reform legislation. Leading up to statute, there were Some occasional ambiguities.

I really wish that the AG Reno edict to destroy no-longer-used DOJ firearms would be recinded, but it's hard to estimate the full extent of the damage. I know that one agency took a bunch of their 3 inch 13s and 65s and converted them to SIM guns. I guess that's better than going into the fire...
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