I am looking to establish a thread to document what we know and suspect about 38/44 ammo for the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman.

My interest is to collect and document what we know about the actual ballistics and performance of the 38/44 High Speed round and all of its derivations from the Super Police to the High Speed.

I ask that if you have pictures of the boxes, ammo, ballistic data or information relating to the actual ammo that you help us all out by posting it here.

My motivation is I have accumulated a fair amount now of 38/44 ammo from 110 grn "highway patrolman" to 200 grn "super police" rounds and I intend on shooting most of it over a chrono to document its performance in a 4" 5" and 6.5" Heavy Dutys.

Before I blow many hundreds of dollars worth of vintage ammo(yes I will keep a few samples and the boxes), I want to establish what the ballistics should be for each of the types of ammo.

Thank you very much for your help.

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SWCA 1646

I am looking to establish a thread to document what we know and suspect about 38/44 ammo for the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman.

My interest is to collect and document what we know about the actual ballistics and performance of the 38/44 High Speed round and all of its derivations from the Super Police to the High Speed.

I ask that if you have pictures of the boxes, ammo, ballistic data or information relating to the actual ammo that you help us all out by posting it here.

My motivation is I have accumulated a fair amount now of 38/44 ammo from 110 grn "highway patrolman" to 200 grn "super police" rounds and I intend on shooting most of it over a chrono to document its performance in a 4" 5" and 6.5" Heavy Dutys.

Before I blow many hundreds of dollars worth of vintage ammo(yes I will keep a few samples and the boxes), I want to establish what the ballistics should be for each of the types of ammo.

Thank you very much for your help.

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SWCA 1646

Great project concept.

It will be wonderful to review this ammo:
*shot from actual revolvers and not test barrels;
*shot over one chronograph with similar ambient temperature and distance to chronograph;
*including comparison of different brands.

I have nothing tangible to contribute [away from my Gun Digests and old manuals], but extend best wishes and thanks in advance.

Regards,

Dyson

Peter:

I look forward to the results of your experiment !

I can contribute a couple of original rounds.

Too bad we could not pull off the 38/44 brass deal with Starline. Far too many people flaked out on that one ! In hindsight that was a very reasonable buy !

Jerry

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.38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

Peter:
Here is a portion of a page of velocities, energies and board penetrations for 10 .38 Special loadings from the 1938 Winchester Ammo Guide. It gives the K codes of all.
Ed


Below are 3 of the Super Speed loads which mention the 38-44 Smiths.

Peter:
This is a pre-war (East Alton address) box which mentions the 38-44 on the bottom. I don't have published ballistic data on it yet.
Ed


One of the Remington Hi-Speed offerings.

Ed - Nice boxes. How do the head stamps read on the metal piercing rounds in your Winchester 38 Special box and your Western Super-X box?

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Rush

Mr. Rush:
The headstamps of the Winchester Metal Piercing read Super Speed 38 Special and have a small primer. Alas, the Western arrived without the contents, despite a promise that they existed and would be conveyed with the box. I finally gave up trying to secure them.
Ed

Pete,
I heard the call and here is some additional info for you:
From a Western Ammo Brouchure late 30's early 40's:






Remington 1930-31 Ammo Catalog:


Remington Ammo:





Peters:


Pete,
I fired some pre war 38/44 ammo that I had in a partial box and it was pretty stout when compared to the regular 38 Spl ammo. I hope this helps.
Bill

This promises to be a fine thread full of interesting info. Wish I had something tangible to contribute but will have to be content to learn. Thanks!

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SWCA # 2294

Thanks Ed. I'm curious whether Winchester and Western used the same case headstamp for there respective boxes of the same nominal loadings. My same question extends to their sister 357 Mag loadings.

By the way, with respect to testing 50 year old ammo there is the issue of whether the ammo's ballistics have been changed by storage issues. I have read and observed that powder exposed over time to higher temperature and or lower humidity will be more potent. I have no information regarding this affect on powder in cartridges.

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Rush

Since picking up a heavy duty I've constantly searched for original 38-44 ammunition. I found one remington kleanbore box, but empty. It's very hard to find stuff.

Have you pulled a couple rounds to measure the charge and determine the powder?

I really like this idea. I was thinking of finding some to test as well, not on such a large scale, but have had a hard time locating any...

Sorry for being away for a week. Work called, I jumped and so off to the field.

My plan right now is to test out the chrono next week and make sure everything is working. I will then take representative samples and shoot them. Right now I am thinking I will keep just a few unfired and then run the rust through several shooter HD's to chrono every round.

I will keep you guys informed and thanks!

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SWCA 1646

Can Somebody tell me about this box of Peters Ammo I bought yesterday? What Year/Vintage might it be? The End label really has my curiosity up. Is the No 3844 meant to be for a 38/44?

Dan

Even the black powder loading of .38spc is doing 870fps!!!

What exactly are the "metal point" bullets?

Peter: Great Idea I had always wondered about the velocity difference (and pressure difference) between the 38-44 and .357 ammo.I surmised that velocities and pressures would be fairly close, but it appears from the data shown here that the Super-X 38-44 stuff was going out at 1175 fps or so...a bit lower than the .357 was supposed to do. Pressure would be higher, too, I bet!

MikeyL
"Life's tough. Tougher when you're stupid." -John Wayne

Dan:
I think the 3844 designation is a coincidence.

Peter:
I just acquired a March 15, 1935 copy of the Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun pocket catalog and, in addition to the velocity and K code tables (which I will post later), it has the recipe for the 38 Special Super Police round, 200 grain bullet, loaded with a powder charge of 4 grains of Infallible.
Ed

Stophel:
Sorry, I didn't see your earlier question. I have 3 boxes of bullets that are considered metal point and that appears to be the designation of a coated bullet, most likely a thin coating of copper. They are not pointed like the metal piercing ones.
Ed

I have been looking for a couple of years for a box of 38/44 type ammo; full, partial, or empty. I have a full box of 200 grain Super Police; is that close enough?

The Super Police load is about 750 fps, not what the Heavy Duty was made for.

I looked for a box of 38/44 Hi-Speed ammo for a long time also, finally got lucky a couple of years ago and found a full box. Hang in there!

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To be a rock and not to roll

I looked in my SP box last night; it is full, but there is a mixture of ammo. All is 200 grain, but some have nickeled cases, some not, and some bullets are Lubaloy and some not. Oh well.

If so, an extremely cool coincidence indeed!

Stophel;
The designation "Metal Point Bullet" used to mean a lead bullet, usually round-nosed, with only the nose portion jacketed. And, as Ed points out above, usually not pointed - that was reserved for the "Metal-Piercing" designation. Hope this helps.

Larry

Arlo:
Bob Bettis is actually the one who passed this info on to me a couple of years ago when I asked the exact same question regarding the code of 3844. And they don't come any cooler than Bob.
Ed

True, true!

I ran accross this rather ratty , partial box of 38-44 Reminton ammo at a show for $10 a while back.
I thought the price was right, so it came home with me. The box says 'Metal Point' but the rounds are FMJ(?).
There was also one lonely round of 357Magnum in the box with the early large primer. Now the trick is to find it.

Figured the stuff would look good with a HD

ttt..........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

An interesting blast from the Past. Wonder if those tests talked about were ever made? I'd do some chronographing myself if I had any HV .38 Special ammo. But all I have are some single-round examples in my collection. The only sources we have to go by are the data tables in old ammo manufacturer catalogs, which usually give MVs in the 1100 to 1150 ft/sec range with 150 or 158 grain bullets, with no other supporting information.