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Old 01-07-2008, 04:24 PM
Jellybean Jellybean is offline
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This is a picture from Bill Jordans book "No Second Place Winner", does anyone recognize the man standing next to Bill Jordan? A website identifies him as Delf Bryce and I'm just trying to confirm that. I did send an e-mail to the site to see if they had more info on it too.
Thanks.

08/05/10, the picture was voluntarily removed because it was originally printed in a book and is more than likely copyrighted material and may not have been reprinted with permission by the afore mentioned website. ~Jellybean

Last edited by Jellybean; 08-05-2010 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:48 PM
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I'd also agree that that is Delf "Jelly" Bryce.

Those are two men that I would sure hate to see facing me like that.

"King's X, guys! I was just kidding!!"

Bob
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:35 PM
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Yeah, that's Jelly Bryce. Ex OK City PD and FBI.

He's regarded as the deadliest lawman of all time with 19 claimed fatal shootings, some of them involving more than one perp. A genuine legend.

Great pic!
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:37 PM
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I have to be the contrarian here and say that I don't think it is Jelly. I could be wrong but the face, the grip, the stance, the position of the shoulders and the hat are all wrong for Jelly Bryce.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:08 PM
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Thanks to all so far. I'm still not sure though. I am seeing the same things that kwill1911 stated. Comparing the faces with every picture I can find of Delf, they don't look like the same person. I once took a photography class and used my son in a series of different lighting settings and people in the class thought they were all different people. But the bone structure just doesn't look the same. But my biggest doubt is in the stance. The several pictures I've seen of Delf with his pistol drawn show him in a deeper crouch, bent more forward and his left hand lower, never above the waist. And since I started this thread I was looking at the pictures some more and noticed that Delf has his left leg forward in each one while the unidentified gent has his right foot forward. There is a picture of Delf showing his son how to draw and/or shoot and he too has his left foot forward.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:20 PM
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Given the way Jordan ridicules Bryce's shooting method, I find it hard to believe that Bryce would volunteer to pose for a picture in Jordan's book!
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:45 PM
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I have no idea who the guy pictured with "long Bill" may be. There is no doubt that it definitely is not "Jelly" Bryce. In fact the man in the picture bears no resemblence to "Jelly" Bryce. This picture shows a rather young man. The renowned Gunfighter was actually older than Jordan. Jelly was born in 1906 and Jordan in 1911. Take a closer look at that picture. There is no way that Young feller pictured with Jordan is "Jelly".
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:57 PM
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After looking at the picture under high magnification and looking at it in Jordan's book, I have changed my mind also and doubt that it is Bryce.

Although the snap brim Fedora was the traditional hat for the G-men, "Jelly" got his nick name from being a fashion plate. I don't think that it would have been out of character if he had adopted a Stetson at some time while he was in El Paso but that isn't what changed my mind.

As we have recently discussed (and as the picture that Tony just posted shows) Bryce had a very distinctive grip with his middle finger up on the bottom of the trigger guard. The man in the picture with Jordan seems to have a more conventional grip. A gunman might change his hat, but he sure wouldn't change his grip.

Bob
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:11 PM
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Thanks gentlemen, I really wasn't worried about who he was as much as who he wasn't. It's been eating at me for a long time and Stophel hit the reason why right on the head.
I'm going to wait to hear from the site (bobtuley.com) that said it was Delf, and I'll let you guys know what they say.
Next time I'll know to ask sooner too.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:18 PM
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Hey lawandorder, that is one cool pic! In fact, it looks exactly they way I look (on the inside that is. On the outside I look a l'il different!)

Where'd the pic come from?

Bob, you got a reference to a thread here about his middle finger grip? I don't recall that. If it's on the other site, how about quoting it here?

Arlo
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Bob, you got a reference to a thread here about his middle finger grip? I don't recall that. If it's on the other site, how about quoting it here?
Onomea, I think I just found it in the "Guns of the Fed's 1920-1950" thread. http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...4/m/6881001072
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:52 PM
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Sorry guys. I still think it's Jelly.

I've got some video footage somewhere which I'll try to load and post.

I agree with Kevin's point about the hat though...
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:36 PM
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OK, OK I give in.

But I know what's confused me - I've seen that guy's picture before! How about a well-known Texas Ranger anyone??
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:53 PM
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A midget in a suit with a gun...
I think it's Bryce.
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:58 PM
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I don't know if the guy in the picture is Bryce or not but from what I have read he was an exceptional hand in a gunfight.

Here is a short but interesting read on Bryce. I can't vouch for it's accuracy (no pun intended but it's a good read.

Dr.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/957612/posts
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:24 PM
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Thanks for the refererral to the thread, Jelly. Interesting stuff. I can see how if a man's hands were big enough that would provide a steady grip.

I gotta get that book on Bryce!
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:24 AM
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In discussing that pic it's helpful to keep in mind that it's used in a chapter on proper stance and is an example of what Jordan considers an improper one next to his correct one. Just can't picture Jordan saying to Bryce "Hey Jelly, let's get a shot of that dorky stance of yours next to my correct one".

Bob
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
A midget in a suit with a gun...


Eddie Gaedel after his baseball career.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:36 AM
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bk43,

Back in the days before folks like Weaver, Chapman, Cooper, et al in the Southwest Pistol League taught us to use "both paws on our piece", that stance was called the FBI Crouch. The theory was that it made you a smaller target (probably good theory) and that if you were hit, you would fall forward and be able to stay in the fight (possibly not such good theory). Additionally, you were taught to hold your weak side forearm across your chest to absorb incoming rounds (Whew!...might work with a .22 or .25 but I suspect that the only effect that it would have on a .357 or a 9mm would be to add a broken arm to the autopsy report )

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Old 01-08-2008, 12:04 PM
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I don't know who he is...I DO KNOW that his hat is a few sizes too small.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:25 PM
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Think about it C&L. Remember we're talking a Fed here. Could be that the hat size may not be the problem

Bob
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:06 PM
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For what it's worth guys - the man in the picture with Bill looks to me like Lee Juras. Anybody here know Lee well enough to agree?
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:29 PM
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Here's a photo of Lee in 1979 receiving the Hand Gunner Award, with the previous photo for comparison.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
You're more balanced and can move quicker from this position.
That is true of the real gunfighters crouch, which Delf didn't invent. However it is my understanding that he was the one who started teaching agents to raise up to the balls of the feet, this was to allow you to fall forward if shot so you can stay in the fight if you were able. If you fell backwards you were pretty much just a target. This is what Bill Jordan said in his book, "As to the matter of falling forward when hit; Well, now! It is hard to imagine that defeatist attitude as part of the credo of John Wesley Hardin or Wyatt Earp! There is no point in developing superior skill with a firearm if the issue is to be settled by the superior ability to absord shock on the part of the winner rather than by the use of that superior skill." Well now! what an idiotic statement made by someone who claimed to be a gunfighter. Does he think the possibility that he would ever get hit didn't exist? I read all the books about fast and fancy shooting and practiced them until I got pretty good. I would do some showing off too and actually made the whole line stop to look in my direction several times. Like when Robo-Cop first went to the range. I also found that fast and fancy shooting didn't always work with real life gunfighting. If you want to be a good gunfighter the first book you need to buy is "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. They have a list of things that they noticed most people did in a gunfight like crouching, death grip on the handgun, squaring off to the target, looking above your sights and etc. No matter what style or who's camp you are in these items will more than likely crop up so be ready. And it doesn't matter how good you are or how much you've trained. I studied western fast draw to develope a fast smooth draw, which I feel is very important to law enforcement. I had a few holsters made that were so fast they were like lightning. I wore them slightly forward of the seam of my pants and drew from an erect stance, until the first day I needed to. It was hard to get the gun out in that crouched position.

Also in response to Jordans remard about a defeatist attitude, here is an excerpt from "Bloodletting In Appalachia" by Howard B. Lee, McClain Pringting Co. publisher. This is referring to C.B. Cunningham, the last Baldwin-Felts guard, of the four that had handguns, to fall at Matewan. "Cunningham was the last guard to fall. Although mortally wounded by the first volley, he propped his fast falling body against a light pole and emptied his pistol at the attackers. With his pistol empty, his knees buckled, and he slumped to the sidewalk." Most people, who are real gunfighters, know- poop happens. It isn't always a one on one proposition.

And of course all this jibberish is just my opinion.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:49 PM
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Bettis1...you are correct of course about the "crouch" being popular over the years and often used in training. What I was saying was that Bill Jordan didn't think it was a proper stance and gives several reasons why in the book. The pic in question was to illustrate his correct(in his opinion) technique next to(in his opinion) the incorrect one. That's why I would question the other guy in the pic being Jelly or any other famous shooter.

Jordan's ideas on the fast draw are very interesting reading. Perhaps more applicable to someone of his stature than the average Joe but interesting none the less.

Bob
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:51 PM
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I was gabbing too much to catch your post makemynight. The picture with Bill Jordan would be a bit older than 1979. The man with him has rather high cheek bones and a narrow lower face. Mr. Jurras's face may have widened with age, but the cheek bones don't look right.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:28 PM
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Super easy to tell that isn't Bryce. Just look at the way he holds his revolver. Bryce has the very odd middle finger placement that stands out like a sore thumb.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:07 PM
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Bob ... You mean the REAL short guy in the pic?

V/r

Chuck

Quote:
Originally posted by bettis1:
I'd also agree that that is Delf "Jelly" Bryce.

Those are two men that I would sure hate to see facing me like that.

"King's X, guys! I was just kidding!!"

Bob
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:19 PM
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Dave,

I've reviewed several books on the "modern" era Rangers and can't find anyone that looks like the guy with Jordan.

Regards,
Kevin
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:10 AM
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What is the copyright date on the book?

Just a WAG- could that be Thell Reed?
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:18 PM
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handejector, The original copyright was 1965. I will explore Google images and see if I can find any pictures of Thell Reed.
Thanks
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:22 PM
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I dont think it is thell reed.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:28 PM
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No. I thought you were referring to "that" Thell Reeds father. I never knew anything about his dad and figured I might have missed something, like they had the same name and his dad was a former Border Patrol agent.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by handejector:
What is the copyright date on the book?

Just a WAG- could that be Thell Reed?
I have to say that that is the very first person I thought of when I saw that picture. However, I have never seen Thell Reed, and darned few pictures of him.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:57 PM
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Here's alot of Thell Reed info. Click on the bullet icons on the left for additional links and pics. Interesting stuff even if it isn't him..
>
http://www.thellreed.com/
>
I don't have a clue who the guy in the picture could be but I think it's a neat photo!
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Old 01-10-2008, 06:21 PM
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Can anyone did up a photo of:

Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel ?
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xfuzz:
Can anyone did up a photo of:

Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel ?
>
Best I could find..(I think that's him and not Reese).
>
[IMG]

</p>[/IMG]
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:17 PM
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Man, I hate a mystery.
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:21 PM
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Skeeter Skelton's kid brother, Gnat?
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Old 01-11-2008, 06:01 PM
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Jellybean, are you from WV? There is very little info anywhere concerning the coal miners war which led to the Matewan shootings. I have a neighbor who's dad was a union organizer and wrote a book about it. His last name was Mooney.
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Old 01-11-2008, 06:37 PM
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Hi ColbyBruce, I live in Ohio but go to WVA every chance we can, it's about an hour drive. Several years ago, after watching the movie "Matewan" I decided to investigate the massacre since they portrayed Sid "Two Gun" Hatfield as a competent gunman. I have been trying to learn all I can about gunfighting for many years. I wrote a letter to the Charleston newspaper asking for information about it and received several responses, from both sides. Several of them referenced the book I mentioned above and I found a copy of it, it is one of my favorites. I also have a copy of "Tale Of The Devil" by Coleman C. Hatfield and Robert Y. Spence. A large part of my families history is in the Appalachian region and I seem to be drawn to it for some reason.

What was the title of Mr. Mooneys book? I would like to read it. I was a union security guard and labor officer at a steel mill for 15 years and went through a lockout during that period, we had a very unique seat during that one.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:07 PM
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All of you well versed readers of gun writers and none of you can identify him.I am positivly shocked.It is non other then Bill Jordan's alter ego and Skeeter Skelton's cross to bear.



Jug Johnson! And,now you know the rest of the story.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:14 PM
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"Struggle in the Coal Fields" by Fred Mooney. Published around 1963 by the University of West Virginia, J. Hess editor. Not sure if you can find one for sale on the net, but if the UWV still has a copy then your local library should be able to obtain it through inter-library loan.

Good luck with your search.
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:34 PM
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I can't find my copy of "No Second Place Winner" but I think the guy in the photo was indetified in the book.

CHuck
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:59 PM
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I have an autographed copy of the 11th printing, 1987, and that picture is on page 56. No ID on the feller.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:05 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Quote:
A large part of my families history is in the Appalachian region and I seem to be drawn to it for some reason.
It's hard to get these mountains out of your soul. It's kinda like bagpipe music. My Stewart ancestors left Scotland for the New World in the 1660s, but hearing the pipes stirs my blood.
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Old 01-12-2008, 07:44 PM
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Curt Dawson, "Jug Johnson!" Are you serious or is this another Gnat Skelton response?

ColbyBruce, thanks, I found a copy but I have two books coming my wife doesn't know about. They were only $20.00 total including shipping but I also have one coming she does know about, I'll see what I can do, it's got my interest up.

Muley Gill, I like bagpipes too, maybe I have some Irish in me. I do have some French ancestors that came to America in the late 1600s and were early settlers in what is now the St. Albans WVA area.
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:26 AM
Tory_Werne Tory_Werne is offline
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Default Who is this man? (Gunman's Crouch - Bill Jordan & Louis M. Werne, Jr.)

I found this eight year old thread today.
Here is my 03.19.2016 Reply to Thread:
--
I can confirm the identity of the shorter "Gunman's Crouch" partner with Bill on page 56 of the first edition "No Second Place Winner". In this 1964 image, this is 5'8" Border Patrol Inspector Louis M. Werne, Jr.

You will also see Louie again on page 21, demonstrating the risks to the arresting officer wearing a cross-draw holster. Louie earned photography credit for the entire book project on the copyright page.

Louis M. Werne, Jr.'s Immigration Service career spanned from 1961 to 1976. From these Border Patrol Inspector beginnings with Bill, Louie's career advanced to Officer in Charge of the US INS Office in Norfolk, VA.

Yes, this was a staged photo. Bill felt strongly that the Gunman's Crouch introduced delay .. which was unacceptable even if the stance presented a smaller target. It was Bill's sense of humor that staged this book image with the comically shorter Louie Werne to make the point.

The autographed copy of this image I know reads :
"Louie .. Don't you figure you're in enough of a hole without all that damn squatting? - Bill"

Almost all of the photos for Bill's book were taken in 1964 near Brownsville, TX. I was personally present for many of these photo sessions with Bill Jordan & Louie Werne.

Thanks for letting me correct the Jelly Bryce misinformation that has spread over the internet.
Jelly Bryce was 26 years older than Louis M. Werne Jr. and 5 years older than Bill Jordan.

Tory Werne (son of the gunman's crouch shooter)

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...7&d=1458622933

Last edited by Tory_Werne; 03-24-2016 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Include link to forum upload jpg
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Old 03-19-2016, 05:13 AM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Welcome to the Forum, Tory.

Thanks for the new information. Stick around if you like Smith & Wessons.
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Old 03-19-2016, 06:17 AM
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I'd always wondered who that guy was and forgot to ask Jordan on the several occasions that we met. I got his book the year it appeared.

It's good to have the mystery cleared up.

I think this is a true bill, and that we at last have the answer.

Last edited by Texas Star; 03-19-2016 at 06:18 AM.
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