1917 & the hunt for red October...

OK a catchy title that snagged your attention. My 1917, 11907x has a capital R, about the size of the flaming bomb, stamped just below and back(Diagonally) from the flaming bomb. It also has the R stamped after the s/n, before the eagles head on the barrel flat and it's stamped on the cylinder face. Anyone could've bought/borrowed a machinist hand stamp, yet because it's in all three of those places I'm wondering. There's already s/n in all of those spots. Why would the R be stamped on the three major components? What could the R stand for/represent?

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Caveat venditor.

No ideas whatsoevah? Ya'll suck at sleuthin'.
Put your heads together and do a little brainstormin'.
All serial numbers match, pistola has been reblued so the R's could've been struck anytime before the newer finish. I'll speculate that while in the service of the goobermint that they didn't care about the finish. When were 1917's sold from official USA status to private hands or businesses? After WWII? The Korean conflict? I know they were used through the 2nd world war. MP's, security forces, USPS and who else? Three R's scattered don't make for a monogram and Richard Richie Rich would've bought two in Nickel and had them Gold plated w/Silver boolits.
So, it probably was redipped from the late 40's to the early 60's. Well fellers, that shore narrows the field down a mite...

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Caveat venditor.

"Put your heads together and do a little brainstormin'."
Maybe it stands for "Rebuilt"

"Repaired" ? "ReFinished" ? These had such a long service life, passing through an unknown number of arsenals, (possibly including foreign arsenals), that it may be impossible to say for sure when it was done or by whom.

About government refinishing - a lot of these were Parkerized by Uncle Sam, so you can't say they didn't care about refinishing them.

"When were 1917's sold from official USA status to private hands or businesses?"
I believe they began being sold off as surplus starting right after WWI. The military considered them a war-time expedient, with the M1911 being the "official" pistol. With the war over, perhaps it was somewhat embarrassing to have these big revolvers around when auto-loaders were considered to be far superior by modern military thinkers.

During the Depression of the 1930s, M1917s were given to financial institutions in an effort to stem the outbreak of highly-publicized bank robberies by notorious outlaw gangs. Back then, most bank tellers were men, and they were fully expected to keep a gun handy and be ready to use it. Even Browning Automatic Rifles were issued to banks! Can you imagine our government taking this approach to crime fighting today?

Anyway, it's possible that any number of private businesses marked it with an R as a property mark (?) or for some other long-forgotten reason.

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You're shy a few manners.

Thanks for the information. I doubt seriously if I'll ever find out for sure, yet it's fun snoopin' 'round...

Redstone Arsenal, AL
Ramstein Air Base, Germany
Federal Reserve
Fort Richardson
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Red River Army Depot
Rock Island Arsenal
Fort Riley
US Army Recruiting Command
Fort Ritchie

I'm kind of leaning(guessing) towards a government agency that was stamping the pistol to distinguish it(For what ever reason.) from military service. Could've been for nothing more than inventory. Somewhere though the clue, besides a capital R stamp, I feel is the three separate stamps marking the frame, cylinder & barrel. What, if anything, could make the separate parts important enough for all of them to receive their own stamp? They were already marked w/s/n though the tiny numbers are hard to eyeball while the R jumps right out at you...

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Caveat venditor.

Only I really know the answer to this:

This gun was once used as a prop in a pirate movie...R-R-R!


T-Star

Reading Rail Road

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Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

I like the pirate idea. If I evah put another finish on I'll borrow an A.
AAR...

Marine Raiders
Army Rangers
Roy Rogers
Lone Ranger
Right-Patterson AFB- Used to guard the Roswell UFO Remains. Top Secret, code, armourer was illiterate/couldn't find the W stamp.
John Glen's coz he had the Right stuff.
Carried by pilots that sprayed agent R'ange.
Range pistola
Rtillery
Requisitioned
Roswell
'Rea-51
Reaper as in grim
Reefer as in madness
Roy as in KilRoy as in Kilroy was here but only had time to stamp a R.

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Caveat venditor.

A little off track, but I recall seeing some of the Panama Guardia Nacional armed with M1917s. This was circa 1968. Just info. Regards, Ray

Nothing is off track on my post. That's interesting that 50 years later they were still being used as military issue. Thanks for sharing...

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Caveat venditor.

perhaps it was there so the owner could always identify his gun while not defacing it too badly?
picture it...... an elderly man & wife go to the station to see if they can identify property after a break in. the old man speaks up right off "HEY, THATS RRRRR'S "

"HEY, THATS RRRRR'S " Two R's too many!

The old buzzard is senile to boot...

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Caveat venditor.

It stands for "Reject". Every marked part is defective and unsafe. I'll give you $50 for it and use it for a paperweight.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I was gonna give it to for shipping until I received a notice that it stands for resurrected...

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Caveat venditor.

My how time flies whilst youse 'avin' fun. Pushing 4 1/2 yrs, if my faculties aren't failing, since I snagged the 1917. Picked up a 25-2, though not pristine had most the paperwork, box, tools and a few pits, the other day. Being another S&W 45 acp wheelgun it started the wheels, rusty as they may be, to turning in the ole noodle again.

Anywho, I started thinkin' again about the capital R stamp on the old warhorse. W/o any other letter the possibilities are many. Speaking of letters I guess it could've belonged Roy Jinks.

Been a while, so I thought I'd drag this thread up to the brim from the dreg. Whenever they were produced the Model of 1917s were a very good year. Tip o' hat to Frank.

Perhaps Reichstag or one one of the Rat Pack.
Republic Pictures
Ronald Reagan

Railroad Rampage- Railroad Rampage - A free Shoot 'Em Up Game
Reserve, Armed Forces
Reserve, Gold
Roosevelt
Revolver, early stab at safety markings

Refinish, Reblue, Repair, Refurbished sure I suppose. Again, the capital R is on the frame just back and down from the flaming bomb and almost the same size. The barrel flat and cylinder are stanped w/SN, so why is the R placed there as well? There's enough room behind the extractor star, bur no R. At 11907X it's a bit past halfway in production. According to notes I've saved: Commercial sales of wartime production Model 1917's ended after Smith and Wesson had depleted it's wartime production supply on January 5th 1921.

I have no way of knowing if the R was there before the reblue or when it was blued.

I agree that this sidearm could've been allocated to another government agency or as mentioned financial institution. Lawd on knows how many different commercial sales took place or how many times this sidearm has changed hands. I didn't buy it because of the R stamps. I tend to be inquisitive though and R stands for something.

Something that begins w/an R.

The arm companys often buy firearms for their product testing.

Might have belonged to Remington?????????? Maybe it was used while they were developing the .45 Auto Rim cartridge after WW I. That would be my story.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Perhaps it was Refurbished by the US Army Ordnance Corps before being issued during WWII. Hence the R near the Ord.Symbol.

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Montani Semper Liberi

Muley, I was trying to cipher how I could squeeze Remington into the fray. Thanks for lead.

MV, I just added refurbished and saw your post. If indeed that were the case I'd think there would be several other pistolas around w/same R stamp. I wouldn't have the only one and someone else surely would've asked the same or commented on the stamp. Being a war issue it's a popular piece among enthusiasts.

This one had the lanyard cut off, would've been the perfect spot for the R as it would've looked as a monogram, but the US Army Model 1917 & SN on the butt are clear well struck. 7 & L are a tad light possibly from preparation for the reblue. However, the stags that came on, who knows how long, are beveled on the butt around 30* exposing the butt more so than flush stocks.

Perchance after shooting up the indigenous Moro tribesmen, that refused request to kowtow to the great white long nosed hope, they left a few souvenirs marked R for Republic of Philippines. Or Rebellion.

Righteous is my incredibly intuitive two cents worth......It is a Smith.

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Go big or stay home

I like the odds on that over reconnaissance.

In a previous post I didn't intend to imply that I was the only person to have R stamped on a Modelo MCMXVII.

I just have yet to run across a post of someone else.

Reissue.

One thing about this model is that it probably was produced right before they heat treated cylinders. I thought maybe that had a bearing, but about 120K also didn't have the new fangled heat treated cylinders.
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Ralph-Green Acres
Yes, it is a masculine name and she was a handyman though in this age of PC we dare not judge.

Ralph Kramden- Honeymooners
Sure, he was a big lug. but driving a bus in New York why wouldn't Raphie boy be packin'? Besides if he was squeezed he could ditch it in the sewer and have Norton snag it on lunch break.

I don't think a business would be likely to stamp three spots. Sounds more like gubbermint redundancy in triplicate. Then again, none are paying for my fledgling psychic abilities.

I have a 15-4 that has a N stamped on the cylinder, barrel flat & frame under the left stock for nickel. I pulled it out as it sports the faux ivory w/dark wood backing that also has the butt beveled around 30*. I believe these were determined to be Ajax grips. Marked 14 on the back listing a couple of other square butt K-frames that they would fit. The cream colour w/1/8-3/16" thick dark wood backing is a quite striking combo on the cheap.

All 1917s were heat treated per a US Gov't requirement for that model.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks Muley. I'll have to find the file, but I seem to recall learning that tidbit on this forum, but that's been a few years ago. Bear in mind that I'm basing that completely on my memory which is always suspect.

After snooping in the book it appears I've confused the 1917 heat treating w/.38 1905 4th change. Heat treating began approximately at SN 316648. Further peeking in my files shines light on my poor memory.

My 4th change is a 255XXX, so it's the one not heat treated, had a brl replacement from around 1946, complete w/different S SN, and it came w/Faux stocks that weren't Ajax, but Jay Scott's.

Not my pistola, not a S&W nor #14 JS stocks though otherwise the same. Maybe cheesy to some, yet on nickel looks good to me. My fit is tight and certainly not oversized on the K frame .38 be it the shiney refinished 1905 HE or 14-4 Combat.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps79130969.jpg

Thanks for pointing out my error as the only thing worse than being wrong/post disinformation is not realizing such!

Other than a S&W R stamp on the 1917 I'll run w/:
Rescript.

It would seem that the R was a S&W stamp or someone mimicking their style of the same three capital letters in the usual suspect/places. Whilst I speculate the R would've been stamped before bluing whether original blue or not. If sent in then repair/refurbish would appear to be the leading candidate.

Possibly a letter would reveal factory work at a later date.

Republic, as in pictures from 1949, The Sands of Iwo Jima.

Probably belonged to René Arthur Gagnon.

Resurrected may very well be the proper term. As near as I recall, an 'R' on the grip frame (of a 1930's vintage gun) stands for "Repaired during manufacture"-----as in: "Somethin' ain't right----fix it!"

Ralph Tremaine

Rat Patrol.

This thread needs pictures.

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Proud anachronism

I like Rat Patrol. The only pic I have is the online auction pic. It's left profile low resolution w/ton of flash on a white background.

The R is 2/3 the size of the flaming ordinance cartouche. It's of healthy size and very noticeable. The key should lie in the R being on the frame, brl flat & cylinder face. The same spots already have a SN.

Repair is more than plausible. My main point in the little mystery is not finding anyone else w/same R in those three spots. Granted anyone could have taken a die and stamped the letter in before the reblue.

But, if it obviously wasn't common procedure, and we rule out some hammer swinging madman, then the R would represent something.

Maybe it was Representin' before representin' was kewl.

ETA: Unlike my nickle the frame R isn't under the stocks on the grip frame. That's what sticks out. Someone wanted to see a R under bluing on the top left side in a prominent position.Maybe it was a joke played on a southpaw. To yer right, to yer right.

As I recall (maybe recalled for retrofit airbags? ) S&W started production of the 1917s but was building to commercial standards which took to quite a bit of time. The Gummint stepped in and took over production to speed things up. Maybe a gun that was caught up in the switch from S&W production to Gov't production?

Too bad there isn't a "B" near the R- you'd have an R&B model.

SN places it in the fall of '18 evah so roughly though w/o letter nothin is a given.

Revenue, infernal
Registrar, office of
Registration, motor vehicle
Registered pre-magnum
Regulated out of left field
Regulator see dry gulcher
Resume civilian production
Regular ole 1917
Rip-snorter
Radioactive
Ray gun
Ray's gun
Rackless
Reckless abandon
Regiment
Resistance is futile you will be assimilated
Reciprocated
Rimless
Retaliate
Remember the Alamo
Rock of Ages
Roll, let's
Ride-along
Rip, let 'er
Rein of terror
Regret, Monsieur The Comancheros
Reach for the skies
Reward your final
Release me
Rendezvous w/destiny
Rigoletto
Rake over
Rake bounder/cad/scoundrel
Reckoning day of
Reconnoiter
Rock the Casbah
Rub, aye there's the
Roughneck
Rustle little doggies; up the usual suspects
Redemption
Renaissance armement pistolet de guerre
Revenuer, gall durn
Reparations Treaty of Versailles

Three more to add to the fray as I shamelessly bump my thread.

Rusty
Relic
Refund

Or perhaps riding steed for a gold watch this was awarded upon retirement of tenure in Readin', Ritin' & Rithmatic.

Sometimes the meaning of the extra markings are just doomed to being lost to history. I have a Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun that started life as a riot gun, was converted to the trench configuration and somewhere along the way ended up with the letters "RPH" stamped on the receiver.

The style of lettering and the execution of the markings is very similar to military stampings I have seen, but for the life of me I can't think of what it stands for. I won't loose any sleep over it, but I would like to find out someday.

After 5 years and change, can we finally see photos of the stamping? Nice Bearcat but it doesn't look like a 1917 .

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

It's not the OP's '17. It's my '97 Winchester

Nice '97, and I see the stamping too...probably an inspector's or armorer's stamp? Remember Pearl Harbor?

I was referring to the OP's R stamping...easier to give an opinion when you can see it, as you did.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I suppose one of these days I'll take a few pics. I haven't even fired a round to date. The meaning of the Cap R is no big deal. I'm having fun w/it though I'm running out of R'ptions.

As previously stated the most interesting thing to me is stamping the frame, cylinder face and barrel flat when they already have their own unique SN. The factory would probably have stamped the extractor as well I suppose.

Here's the R on the frame. The R on the cylinder face & barrel flat look the same.

ETA:Well, on original buy I was hoping more for a Red badge of courage though now it's listing unto the scaRlet letter.

Thanks for all the replies.

Attached Images

1917 R.jpg (151.3 KB, 62 views)

I believe the factory used the R for Rework . . . meaning repaired during manufacture as Ralph suggested.

Russ

The "R" means returned to private ownership after military use.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Really!? Allow me a wee bit further inquiry. I would think quite the number of 1917 were transferred/sold/decommissioned unto the private arena over the span of several decades.

However, I seem to read into your reply the implication that this one, as well as others, were privately owned prior to government use. The only time I'm familiar with is during WWI, though there maybe other instances, that the government solicited the private sector for personal firearms due to an initial shortage. I seem to recall an era also where soldiers, mostly officers, might equip themselves w/personal sidearm into a theater of battle
.
Now the pendulum swings towards MisteR Smith goes to Washington.
Regardless, I still find it odd that they would strike the cylinder face and barrel flat as well. Especially after using such an obvious location on the frame by the hammer on the opening side of the cylinder. Do you figure, in light of these parts sharing the same SN, that this was some type of stamp only approved in triplicate?
Thanks for sharing your input.

Did this Repetitive thread Really get Resurrected again? This Ridiculous thread could stand to be Retired!

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

BeRieve it ahR Rot!

Attached Images

	shtspd1KUL.jpg (132.8 KB, 25 views)
	1917 R.jpg (151.3 KB, 10 views)