I didn't want to sidetrack the thread about lettering guns but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a gun lettered to the above agency? They were headquartered in Bluefield WV and were involved, to their dismay, in the Matewan Massacre in 1921. I know they carried S&Ws from some research I did several years ago but didn't know if the company issued the guns or if the individual agents bought their own.

Thanks for any help.

I didn't want to sidetrack the thread about lettering guns but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a gun lettered to the above agency? They were headquartered in Bluefield WV and were involved, to their dismay, in the Matewan Massacre in 1921. I know they carried S&Ws from some research I did several years ago but didn't know if the company issued the guns or if the individual agents bought their own.

Thanks for any help.

They were also in the Galax, Virginia area. There is a Felts Parks there, named after one of the family members.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Muley Gil, thanks for the info. I did a quick search on the park, found some intersting history about Galax.

Jelly have never seen one lettered to B-F but does not mean there not out there. Hope you find one, that would be a great historical item.Lots of interesting stories about them and the area they operated in.

Thanks lawnandorder, During my search for information on the gunfight I had received a letter from a woman who had a S&W that belonged to her father, he was one of the Baldwin Felts agents that had been killed at Matewan. The gun was recovered by police in Charleston the week after the gunfight and was returned to his family. In case anyone cares she said it was a .38 special and it sounded like it was a M&P model from her description. The more I read trying to get the information I wanted, which I never did, the more personal the story became.

Jelly if you don't have it a good book to get is "Baldwin Felts Detectives INC " BY John A. Velke III. Lots of detail and great photos. Another is "Bloodletting in Applachia" by Howard B. Lee.

I have a .38 Special M&P that letters to Bluefield Supply Co., but it shipped in 1940.

lawandorder, I have "Bloodletting in Applachia" but don't have "Baldwin Felts Detectives Inc". I've seen it's website and have thought about ordering it but have too many irons in the fire, and not enough coal.

Thanks KingBee, I think Baldwin Felts was out of business before 1940. However, it is a possibility they ordered from Bluefield Supply while they were in business if both were open at the same time. Thanks for the lead.

They were nothing short of thugs and murderers. The agency also burned down a mining camp somewhere out west, Arizona maybe, before the WV coal mine wars.

I believe you bought a copy of Mr. Mooney's book about that period, didn't you?

ColbyBruce, Not yet, I'm glad you reminded me of it too. There are a couple of books available but they are above my financial capabilities right now.

I think the incident you are thinking of was at Ludlow, Colorado. Their dignity seems to change with who you talk to. Not only did I get a letter from the woman who's father was a slain agent, I also had one from a 90+ year old woman that lived in Matewan at the time of the gunfight. It is remarkable how two people can relate two completely different versions of the same story and both be right.

I also recently witnessed a long debate involving two groups on opposite sides of an argument. The only thing I learned from it is you can make anything believable, even if you have to create your own reality to do it. But we won't go there.

Jelly, that is absolutely true. I wrote my PhD thesis on a riot that took place in Tokyo in 1905 at the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese War. Some historians thought the riot was the beginning of pre-war democracy in Japan. Others thought it the beginning of Japanese imperialism. Japanese historians argued about what it meant for 75 years before I showed up. I tried to get at what had actually happened, and found, as you note, that eyewitness accounts vary. But you can determine things like who got killed, what got destroyed, and what people said at the time as to why they behaved in the ways they did. Still, as to what it means, what the larger significance of the event is, my conclusion was simply that history, for better or for worse, is what we of later generations choose to make of it…

Your research sounds interesting, and I hope you post about it!

Onomea, that's interesting. I learned a lot about history while trying to determine if any of my ancestors fought in the Un-Civil War. (Can you guess what I found?) It's amazing how history is distorted to make the tellers always sound like the good guys.

I'm not researching Matewan anymore, that was ten years ago. I was trying to find information about actual gunfights that happened after 1900 using handguns other than single actions. Every thing I read about was during the cowboy era. After watching the movie "Matewan" I wanted to learn more about the battle and a prominent figure involved in it, Sid "Two Gun" Hatfield, Chief of Police for the village of Matewan. Up to that point I had never heard of the book by Howard B. Lee, "Bloodletting In Appalachia" which was quoted by two people who had responded to my inquiry. It became obvious there were two sides to the story and surprisingly the movie took the side of the union miners. My research pretty much ended at that time too, the movie portrayed Sid Hatfield shooting two of the Baldwin-Felts agents near point blank range at the start of battle. The other version was very close to this except he was standing behind them instead of face to face with them.

However as I said, the more I read about it the more personal it became. I wasn't researching it anymore but it still interests me, which led to my post here.

Thanks for listening guys, and I appreciate the responses.

Jellybean,My grandfather was machinist for C&O railroad in twenties.He told me stories of Baldwin&Felts used by railroad.He didn't have high opinion of them,but he just left Northern Ireland.Seems like the people with power are same world over.I grew up in Eastern Kentucky coalfields,so I have pretty good idea of the types.

I have a .44 Triple Lock that letters as having been shipped to A. C. Felts in March, 1913. According to Roy Jinks, the address in the records is illegible. It's an all original blue 5 inch barrel gun with typical holster wear and is mechanically excellent. In spite of the crude sights on these older hand ejectors, it shoots cloverleaf groups to point of aim at 50 feet with 240 grain reloads.

I've been trying to find out if this gun was taken from Albert C. Felts after he was killed in the Matewan Massacre. The town holds a re-enactment each year and I may go one year and give a little presentation on the gun. Presumably, I'll get a friendlier welcome than old A.C. got more than 80 years ago!

Belfastman, Thanks for the input. In his book Howard B. Lee mentioned that they did do some good, like assisting local law enforcement and stopping thefts from railroads. However, having worked in both public and private law enforcement I can imagine some of the things that went on, private law enforcement doesn't have all the "restraints" on them that their public counter parts do. Also I think at that time most of the public law enforcement worked for the coal operators too. Sid Hatfield was a hero to the workers, regardless of his actions, because he sided with them in the face of adversity. Loyalty means a lot to people who don't have the money to buy it. I think one of the reasons I became so interested in this is because at the time I was reading it I was employed as a union security guard at a steel mill and working part time as a police officer. About three years before my research I was in the middle of a labor dispute that lasted 54 days. Actually it never ended, but it was one of the best learning experiences I ever had.

My parents were from Eastern Ky. Do you know where Carter County is?

HKSmith, That may be the information I've been looking for! Have you ever tried to get any information from the Charleston Police Dept.? Sid Hatfield was arrested in Charleston a week after the gunfight and had two of the B-F agents revolvers with him. They were confiscated and returned to the families. I don't know if the P.D. would have any records left from that time period but it doesn't hurt to ask.

My short term memory is gone but I think I was just reading where the last of the Baldwin Felts company papers are kept. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Thanks a lot. And if you do find out for sure please let me know if you can.

OOPS, just looked at H.B. LEEs book again. It was the Huntington Police Dept. that confiscated the guns and they were supposed to have been the guns carried Albert and Lee Felts at the time of the gunfight. You might want to check with them instead of Charleston.

Looks like my long term memory isn't doing too well either.

HKSmith, this isn't what I saw the other day but it may help. It may be referring to the same place as what I read, it was something about the records were owned by a coal museum or something. You might want to go to page 12.

KingBee, you might want to look throgh this yourself for information about your S&W. from Bluefield Supply.



http://craftmemorial.lib.wv.us/ERCALIST.doc

Jellybean,Yes I sure do know where Carter is.I grew up in Boyd county which is right by carter.The eastern kentucky coalfields have always been in turmoil.If you haven't ever been to them you cannot imagine the the horrific conditions.These people were little more than slaves,making someone else rich.All they wanted was fair pay for fair work,it didn't happen.

Belfastman, we're almost neighbors, sort of. I really never heard much about the Kentucky coal mines. My maternal grandfather had worked in one when he was young and decided he didn't like it, at least not enough to die for it. He worked several jobs and eventually started a blacksmith shop. My paternal grandfather worked at the brick yard in Olive Hill. My dads brother worked at the brick yard until it closed and then he started a body shop behind his house. My moms brother took over Grandpas shop and turned it into a gas station/tire center in Globe. Although they weren't in the coal industry they still had the same problems of making someone else rich. (Except for the one uncle, he was the oppressor, not the oppressed.) My dad left the area in 1953 and moved to Ohio to work in the steel mills.

I found a book written by one of my Dads old teachers that had a lot of Carter County history in it. I gave it to my parents for Christmas in February and they spent weeks looking through it. It had both of their senior class pictures in it and there was one of the shop class with my dad in it.

I'm loving this tread guys. I've researched coal mining from my interests in rail roading.
I am going to look up those books mentioned and acquire them. You folks are a virtual fountain of information.

Thanks moosedog, my favorite source for out of print books in bookfinder.com, they are used by most of the major on-line book sellers who are used by numerous smaller independant book sellers.

The book mentioned by ColbyBruce is titled "Struggle In The Coalfields" by Fred Mooney. There are three copies, all listed by Amazon. The lowest priced one is listed as "readable" for it's condition and I would rather get one in better shape. The other two are a little high priced for me right now, especially the one in the U.K. Of Course if you buy the cheaper one you can loan it to me. There is a 12 page pamphlet with the same title written by Kim Mooney, it appears to be a work of political propaganda and doesn't appear to be related to Fred Mooneys book.

Jellybean:

Thanks for the information about Sid Hatfield and the Huntington, WV Police Department. I will try to contact them and see if they maintained records on the Felts brothers weapons.

HKSmith

Thanks JellyBean. I've got a #3 in 44 Spl that came out of West Va. I'm trying to look up it's back ground. May have to take a ride.

I'm glad I can help and good luck to both of you on your searches. Moosedog if you've never been to W.VA. it has some of the nicest people and some of the best scenery you can ask for. My wife and I go there every chance we can just to get out of Ohio. In fact my favorite quip is: "What's separates Heaven from Hell? The Ohio River."

Yes, I have been to WV on several occassions, rafting the New River and researching the NF&G Railroad near Rainelle.
You are correct on it being beautiful and the people being great, always an enjoyable trip.

Speaking of WV, Matewan and the New River have you ever heard of Thurmond, WV.? It's a small town next to the New River and is where the movie "Matewan" was filmed because it looked like a 1920s coal town and they didn't have to build a movie set. I've been to it twice and most of it is rotting into the ground. If you like trains, rivers and Appalachian history this is a great destination. The old train depot is now a museum and there are train tracks every where you step.

Jellybean,My first summer working with AEP I assisted a coal buyer,we had to take samples off coal face.They don't pay those guys enough we traveled 1 mile underground.It's the close to hell as I ever want to be.I retired after 25 years working at coal fired generating plant .Moosedog you'll like Thurmond alot of history.

Belfastman, I know what you mean, I don't think I'd want to try it. I like to explore caverns but crawling around in some of those coal mines that are only about three feet high would be something else. My wife and I drove down to Sago WV last year to see the memorial to the miners that died there in 2006, it is a moving experience. It is in the middle of nowhere but there were miners from several other states visiting it at the same time we were there, I never realized how close of a brotherhood they had.

There is a tour you can take down into a coal mine at Beckley WV, but my wife is afraid to go on it. Which means I don't have to tell her I'd be afraid too.

And as long as we are talking WV, railroads and tourism, there is a working Shay locomotive at the Cass Scenic Railroad near Cass WV.

I am from Maggofin County in eastern Ky and I can remember the struggles of the miners in the 70's and 80's. It was not much different than then than it was 50 years prior. If you can find it a documentary was made in the mid 70's call Harlan County USA. This shown the struggle of miners against Duke Power.

Another little know fact was the US Air Corp was called out to do a bombing raid on striking miners, this was the only time that they where call in to attack US citizens. The raid was cancled do to fog. I don't remember all the details but I am sure a google search will provide more details.

Tim.

The air strike was at battle of blair mountain in mingo county West Virginia

My Dad is from Bluefield. Back when I was a teen, my Grandfather, a Bluefield railroad worker, told me about the Matewan Massacre, a firsthand story, and I of course being a know it all teen thought he was pulling my leg so I didn't pay too much attention. Thats one of the things I'd go back to and change if I could.

__________________
Geoff. Since 1960.

Timb1, thanks for the info, I've never heard of any of that, I guess I was too busy to stop and look. I read about the documentary on Wikipedia it sounds pretty interesting, I'm going to put it on my list of things to do but haven't been able to do any of them. I have heard of Harlan County though, and I believe every word of it.

geoff40, that's how I was with my Grandfather, he would tell stories for hours and I just wanted to run, run, run. He used to tell me how dangerous it was to go to an area called "Porter Creek", I thought he was acting tough because he was related to them, but he wasn't kidding.

June, 2007 issue of Precision Shooting magazine had a fascinating article on "Two Gun" Sid Hatfield and the Matewan events by Joe Roxby. Back issues are available from Precision Shooting Inc., 222 McKee St., Manchester, CT 06040, www.precisionshooting.com.

Belfastman, thanks for the info I thought it was Blair Mt. but wasn't sure.

I also remember only about half listening to the stories in my younger days. One I recall was about a stand off between company agents armed with Thompsons and a few locals armed with Krags and 03 Springfields. Needless to say the agents wasted a lot of ammo because they never got anywhere close enough to be effective and when the locals took a shot someone went down. I wish I had lstened to all the details.

On the same theme of misted opertunites, I once had the chace to look over Devil Anse Hatflied's 7.5 inch target triple lock. I wish I had written down the asking price and the serial number but what does a young teenager know.

Youth is wasted on the young, Tim.

Massad thaks for information,will call later today to get copy,love to read on past events.Again thanks mate

Timb1 You had chance to see Devil Anse's Triplelock How cool that must have been.When and where did you see it.?

Belfastman, it was around 30 years ago, an old east Ky gun trader had it. His name was Harrison Preist, he traded in the Paintsville, Prestonsberg, Pikeville area. He had a healthy price on it at the time, somewhere in the 800-1200 range. The old TL had quite a lot of holster wear on it.

I was around 12-14 at the time, wish I could remember all the details, but I was impressed at the time. I knew then it was a peice of history.

Mas, Thanks for the info and the link. I had found several interesting pictures of Sid when I was doing my research which I can't find now. One of my three biggest internet research complaints.

Timb1, that would have been interesting if it was authentic. I have a book about "Devil Anse" by Coleman Coleman C. Hatfield, his great grandson, and Robert Y. Spence titled "The Tale Of The Devil". They mention a couple of double action revolvers and a Winchester repeating rifle that were used during the feud but it was more because they were very uncommon in that area at the time. I'm not saying he couldn't have owned one, he died in January of 1921, unfortunately this book wasn't written about his firearms.

This thread peaked my interest again, I tracked down a copy of "Thunder In The Mountains" by Lon Savage. I just finished chapter two which describes the battle at Matewan a little different than H. B. Lee's book. This version sounds a lot more plausible.

I believe Blue Ridge Country magazine has done an article or two on Matewan and on the Hatfield & McCoy feud as well.

Might be able to find those articles on-line.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks Muley Gil, this book also mentions Galax. Apparently Albert and Lee Felts were buried there after the battle. Over 3,000 people attended their funeral.

It also says they were both carrying two handguns each.

I find this thread very interesting as I have lived all my life in Pikeville and have visited family in Matewan on several occasions. Thanks for the memories. There is still marked bullet holes in buildings (for tourists) and a recording of the events that happened during the "massacre" that plays for those interested. I had an uncle that was a dentist there for 50 years during those times.

The present Matewan is not the same. A lot of houses washed away during floods. They now have a flood wall to protect the rest of the town which consists of mainly a single street. They recently had a yearly reenactment of the massacre but I did not attend. Still lot's of history in the old town.

Hello deanodog, thanks for the comments. My fathers side of the family migrated through Pike County, in fact I hear a lot of them stayed there. I have been to Matewan several times but have never been to Pikeville. It is on my list of things to do.

P.S. I did see the bullet holes.

Jellybean,you have to go to Pikeville.It's beautiful country and people.Lot of history down there.I get home sick for my Kentucky bluegrass and hills.I spent my entire life in Eastern Kentucky.If you have time go to Paintsville and see the Mayo mansion.It was built by John C.C.Mayo around 1912,one of the early coal barons.

Thanks Belfastman, I might have been in Pike County twice befor but I'm not sure. Once was when I was a year old at a family reunion, which I don't really remember. The second was when my wife was driving and I was sleeping. We were supposed to be in West Virginia, I don't know exactly where we were but it was Kentucky.

We have a new four lane just completed from Pikeville to Charleston WVA. Williamson WVA used to be an hour drive is now 25 minutes from Pikeville. Williamson is close to Matewan on The Tug river.Route 52 winds in and out of Ky and WVA in several places close to Williamson.

I've been all over WVA, just never really went into Ky. For some reason my wife thinks the scenery changes. Four lane highways are great for getting somewhere in a hurry but I usually try and avoid them once I get there.

Jellybean - Since you started this thread and apparently have an interest in the Baldwin-Felts Detective Agency I would be happy to send you a complimentary copy of my book, The True Story of the Baldwin-Felts Detective Agency. You may email me at [email protected] with your mailing address and I will get it in the mail to you.

For everyone else - I'd be happy to exchange a free copy of my book for original photos and information about any guns or other items associated with the agency. I will also pay a finders fee to anyone who provides information that leads to my acquisition of an item associated with the agency. I am in the process of remodeling the Baldwin House in Bluefield, WV that contains 2 basement jail cells. I hope to open a small musuem there someday.

BTW - There is a photo of several playing cards in my book which shows Baldwin's proficiency with a Smith & Wesson.