Model of 1899 Barrels

[mikepriwer]

The Model of 1899 represents the beginning of the K-frame line of revolvers. There is a lot of evolution from
1899 through the present , and lots of good articles have been written about this development. This
posting is a discussion about the 1899 barrel itself.

The Model of 1899 is the culmination of the ideas about the side-swing, or hand-ejector cylinder. In the Model
of 1899, there is no front lockup ; ie, there is no lug under the barrel to catch and secure the end of the
extractor rod. Rather, it just hangs out there, all by its lonesome. The following link is a picture of a
4 inch 1899 nickel target, illlustrating this feature of the extractor rod.



Another apsect of this feature is the flat area under the barrel. From the picture above, this flat area is actually
a projection downward from the bottom of the barrel. In the subsequent evolution of this design, and particularly
the 1902 1st change model., the barrel diameter is increased slightly, and the flat area under the barrel is no
longer a projection, but rather is ground into the barrel.

In the photo above, the downward-projecting flat area serves the purpose of filling the gap that would otherwise
occur, between the top of the extractor rod, and the bottom of the barrel. Also, having a flat area provides a
place to stamp the serial number.

The Model of 1899 was offered in three standard barrel lengths: 4 inches, 5 inches, and 6 1/2 inches. Non-standard
barrel lengths were available on special order: 6 inche and 8 inch examples are known to exist. And now we get
to the heart of this matter !

There was a meeting of the NW SWCA collectors Aug 25th. I gathered up my 1899 targets, which represent
all the barrel lengths. Among them is serial number 1404, shipped in Aug of 1899 as a 6" nickel gun. In checking
the gun, I noticed that there is no flat area under the barrel, but that the barrel is round. Being a 6 inch gun, it
was a special order. The same thing is true of the 8" blue, but that was also a special order. The following link shows
the underside of 1404, along with that of 038, a 6 1/2" nickel target.





I have examined 15 to 20 1899 targets, and to my recollection, all had a flat area under the barrel - with the exception of the
8" gun. Somehow, I missed 1404 over the years. Curiously, the OD of the rounded barrel is about the same as those with
projected flats. There is a noticeable gap between the top of the extractor rod and the bottom of the rounded barrel. Apparently
this was not a problem for the factory, so it makes one wonder if some of the very early 1899's had rounded barrels.

Ed Cornett has two guns , with round barrels, Serial numbers 100 and 225 are both standard 6 1/2" .
Now that is interesting - because it suggests that the very early 1899's may have been round barrels without flats.

Another interesting one is 367. It letters as 6", and its flat area is only 9/16" long. The standard lengh for the flat is about
1 & 1/16 " . I'm sure that the barrel on 367 was a standard 6 1/2", and was shortened to 6" by cutting 1/2" off the forcing cone,
turning another 1/2", and cutting additional threads. This is an accepted techinque to repair cracked forcing cones on 1899's.
This works because there is no lug under the barrel.

The open question, to members of this forum, is : do any of your 1899 revolvers have a round barrel with no flat area ?
It would appear, from the scant evidence above, that it is not only the special-order 6" barrels that may be round, but that
some of the early regular production barrels were also round. If any of the forum members do have round-barrel 1899's,
I would be interested the barrel length, as well as the serial number or shipping date.

Any feedback information would be appreciated !

Regards, Mike Priwer

[mikepriwer]

The Model of 1899 represents the beginning of the K-frame line of revolvers. There is a lot of evolution from
1899 through the present , and lots of good articles have been written about this development. This
posting is a discussion about the 1899 barrel itself.

The Model of 1899 is the culmination of the ideas about the side-swing, or hand-ejector cylinder. In the Model
of 1899, there is no front lockup ; ie, there is no lug under the barrel to catch and secure the end of the
extractor rod. Rather, it just hangs out there, all by its lonesome. The following link is a picture of a
4 inch 1899 nickel target, illlustrating this feature of the extractor rod.



Another apsect of this feature is the flat area under the barrel. From the picture above, this flat area is actually
a projection downward from the bottom of the barrel. In the subsequent evolution of this design, and particularly
the 1902 1st change model., the barrel diameter is increased slightly, and the flat area under the barrel is no
longer a projection, but rather is ground into the barrel.

In the photo above, the downward-projecting flat area serves the purpose of filling the gap that would otherwise
occur, between the top of the extractor rod, and the bottom of the barrel. Also, having a flat area provides a
place to stamp the serial number.

The Model of 1899 was offered in three standard barrel lengths: 4 inches, 5 inches, and 6 1/2 inches. Non-standard
barrel lengths were available on special order: 6 inche and 8 inch examples are known to exist. And now we get
to the heart of this matter !

There was a meeting of the NW SWCA collectors Aug 25th. I gathered up my 1899 targets, which represent
all the barrel lengths. Among them is serial number 1404, shipped in Aug of 1899 as a 6" nickel gun. In checking
the gun, I noticed that there is no flat area under the barrel, but that the barrel is round. Being a 6 inch gun, it
was a special order. The same thing is true of the 8" blue, but that was also a special order. The following link shows
the underside of 1404, along with that of 038, a 6 1/2" nickel target.





I have examined 15 to 20 1899 targets, and to my recollection, all had a flat area under the barrel - with the exception of the
8" gun. Somehow, I missed 1404 over the years. Curiously, the OD of the rounded barrel is about the same as those with
projected flats. There is a noticeable gap between the top of the extractor rod and the bottom of the rounded barrel. Apparently
this was not a problem for the factory, so it makes one wonder if some of the very early 1899's had rounded barrels.

Ed Cornett has two guns , with round barrels, Serial numbers 100 and 225 are both standard 6 1/2" .
Now that is interesting - because it suggests that the very early 1899's may have been round barrels without flats.

Another interesting one is 367. It letters as 6", and its flat area is only 9/16" long. The standard lengh for the flat is about
1 & 1/16 " . I'm sure that the barrel on 367 was a standard 6 1/2", and was shortened to 6" by cutting 1/2" off the forcing cone,
turning another 1/2", and cutting additional threads. This is an accepted techinque to repair cracked forcing cones on 1899's.
This works because there is no lug under the barrel.

The open question, to members of this forum, is : do any of your 1899 revolvers have a round barrel with no flat area ?
It would appear, from the scant evidence above, that it is not only the special-order 6" barrels that may be round, but that
some of the early regular production barrels were also round. If any of the forum members do have round-barrel 1899's,
I would be interested the barrel length, as well as the serial number or shipping date.

Any feedback information would be appreciated !

Regards, Mike Priwer

[1Aspenhill]

MIke,
Very interesting guns and thanks for the information, it is always great to learn something interesting and new about S&Ws.
Thanks again,
Bill

[smith17]

Thanks Mike.
Ed

[Bullseye Smith]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for the information, didn't know that about the 1899. Now is this the same for the 32-20 of 1899? How many target models were there made in the 38 and 32-20 (if you know)? I have learned alot just reading your notes. Thanks Again John

[cgt4570]

Both of mine (.38 and .32 fixed sights) have flats. Sorry

[DWFAN]

I just viewed some of the picks I have. Saves digging through a pile of guns. The .32 has a flat, one .38 with and one .38 without. Now I'll have to dig it out and be sure.
DW

[mikepriwer]

How many target models were there made in the 38 and 32-20 (if you know)?

John

That is the $64 question. I gave a whole presentation at the last Las Vegas S&WCA
meeting, addressing that very point. If there is an answer, its "Not many".

This question is not limited to targets - it applies to all 1899's, and in both
calibers: .38 , and 32/20 . As far as the factory was concerned, there was only one
model of 1899 , and it was available in two chamberings, two finishes, three barrel lengths,
and two sight configuations.

DW

Let us know the details of the one with no flat, if that is how it is.

Later, Mike Priwer

[Bullseye Smith]

I'm getting a 32/20 target from Lee, and it is hard to wait to see the barrel on it.I will have to go back to the add and see if any Pics show it. Later John

[Bullseye Smith]

Hey Mike,
Here is a PIC of the barrel,


Hope this is a help. Later John

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Mike;

Both barrels of mine have the flat, one target .38, one fixed sight .38.

[mikepriwer]

John

Your gun is what I had expected all 1899's to look like. By the way, your
pictures capture the important elements that define the model of 1899. These
elements subsequently change in the model of 1902, snd then again in the 1902 1st change.

1. The barrel is a straight-taper barrel, with no shoulder where it meets the frame.

2. There is no extractor lug under the barrel, to stabilize the extractor rod.

3. The flat area under the barrel is probably 1 & 1/16", which is the length
of the extractor rod as it projects forward from the yoke.

4. The flat area fills the gap between the bottom of the barrel, and the top of the
extractor.

I'd like to get a measurment of the depth of the flat. If you have a micrometer, could
you measure the OD of the barrel at the frame - first from side to side, and then from
top (of the barrel) to bottom (of the flat)? The side-to-side measurement is typically
about .650 or so. I'm guessing the top-to-bottom measurement ought to be about .680
or so, meaning that the flat is projecting down about .030 .

Regards, Mike Priwer

[Bullseye Smith]

Hey Mike,
When I get it home I will measure for you. Plus our buddy Lee is the photo guy on these, I took them off gunbroker. But it is my gun, and when it comes I will do it. Learn something new every day on here. Thanks John

[DWFAN]

Well I found that other gun and it does have the flat on it. Rats.
DW

[Henry]

Here is another with the 1" flat on the barrel underside.

Mine is a 38 special in nickel, #16741 with a 4" barrel. It has a fixed sight. The strap at the back of the grips has quite a few marks including US, but it does not have a lanyard ring, and apparently never did, so I am confused about its history; Did the US government buy any of these for some other department beside the military or could the US mean something else?

When I bought it a few years ago for $100, it had some improvised wood grips, but I was fortunate enough to later find some 1899 marked originals to bring it back to look authentic.

[mikepriwer]

38 special in nickel, #16741 with a 4" barrel.

This is a curious gun. The Army contract covered the serial numbers
13001 to 14000, so this would not have been part of that contract.

Later, Mike Priwer