Most excellent news on the Pre-23. I look forward to the pics.

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Centennial Every Day

I got the pictures, but they are at the store computer, not here at home. I'll try to upload them tonight. Except for the fact that they refinished it and that they blued the hammer and trigger...it's really quite nice. I want one now.
Cheers!

Okay, here are the photos of what Michael picked up yesterday. Too bad they refinished it, we'd have gladly given them the same money with whatever it's original finish was, but I guess they thought bright and shiney would be more appealing. Wrong....but too late by the time we heard about it.

He was actually STOPPED by an Army Patrol and they searched his car after he picked it up and before he registered it but they didn't find it. I don't think he would have had a problem as he had already made the bank-payment to register the gun, and legally they have to let him proceed. However, Michael's Spanish is only so-so, and thus I must give him many marks for bravery and cool to have pulled the whole stunt off, registering the gun, and bringing it back here. AS I SAID, now I want one! Kind of as a more-legal companion piece to Phil's.

Due to the crash (and apparent explosion and burning and then being covered by a flood) of Image Cave, most of the photos I ever posted in this thread have disappeared.

However, I probably have most of them and have today opened up a photobucket account and will begin restoring them once again to their correct positions within the thread.

Sorry it took me so long to get around to it, but I figured I'd just be lazy and wait and see if Image Cave came back on it's own. I am now willing to believe it will not.

Not much new to report, but I did get up to the Tulsa gunshow in November and got to meet Handejector, Doc44 and Merlindrb and BMG60, JayceeNC and Curtis (29Aholic). I wish I had been able to talk more than I could but I hope to get back up again as the economy improves. It was nice to meet you all and finally put faces to the names.

Now, I need to start putting photos back where they are supposed to be. Cheers!

Good to see your post.

Definitely one of the all time interesting threads.

John

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I Love This Site

Cal
It was great to meet you at Tulsa, and I too wish we'd had more time to chat. Been meaning to PM you as well, but now it's tax season so not much time. Hope all is well.

Buy it and wear around your local Home Depot. It will feel like its at home.

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Vaya con Dios

Cal, it was really nice to chat with you in Tulsa. Your story and this thread are my favorites on the Forum.

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John

Cal,

thank you so very much for sharing not only the info on the gun, but also the wonderful stories about your friend.

Thanks, Lobo. I appreciate your comment.

I have restored all the photos that I posted in this thread. We are still missing a couple, but I did not originally post them so I have no copies of them. Perhaps the original posters might have lost them the same way I did during the big crash of Image Cave?

Just before going up to Tulsa in November, a copy of "Dead Aim" by Lee Echols arrived, sent to me by a friend. Pre-owned copies of this long out-of-date book which was just a reprinted copy of the earlier original still seem to exist on Amazon. It's a book with some stories of pistol shooters from the 1930's and '40's and '50's. There was at least one good involved story involving Phil Roettinger and a few other "mentions". I actually read the book during the bus trip to Mexico City (it's a short read) to get on the plane North and found that I really liked the part about Phil. I could literally "picture him in my mind" going through the antics involved in the story. It was one of those weird things where you are reading a story about someone you knew written by someone who also knew him and described him well. Sort of surreal. From so long ago.

This thread will pass 40,000 views today I predict. Phil would have been pleased, I would think, that his revolver generated so much interest.

After revisiting this thread today due to a link posted in a recent thread; The last ".357", I found myself digging through some S&W paperwork tonight and thought I noticed a familiar name. Sure enough, on the last page of a Evaluator's LTD ad........

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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

American Rifleman, Vol. 102, No. 12, December 1954 -

"The rapid-fire pistol team of (L to R) Philip C. Roettinger, John Forman, Huelet L. Benner, Thomas R. Mitchel, William W. McMillan and John M. Jagoda"





American Rifleman, Vol. 103, No. 1, January 1955


The 1954 International Shooting Squad which represented the United States in the 36th World Shooting Championship: (seated, l. to r.) Ralph W. Anthony; William W. McMillan; Col. Charles G. Rau, USA, Adjutant; Frank T. Parsons, Captain; Maj. Gen. Merritt A. Edson, USMC (Ret'd), Chief of U.S. Delegation and ISU Vice President; Maj. Harold J. Thomas, USMC, Coach; Harry Reeves; Philip C. Roettinger. (Standing) Walter R. Walsh, Arthur C. Jackson, Robert K. Sandager, Arthur E. Cook, John C. Forman, James M. Smith, William C. McAuliffe, August Westergaard, E. O. Franzen, John M. Jagoda, Offut Pinion, Allan Luke, Huelet L. Benner, Thomas R. Mitchell, Verle F. Wright, John F. Dodds and E. O. Swans

COMPETING IN THE RAPID FIRE PISTOL EVENT OF THE 1948 OLYMPIC GAMES ARE THESE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. SHOOTING TEAM (FROM LEFT TO RIGHT): MAJOR PHILIP C. ROETTINGER OF CINCINNATI, OHIO, JOHN B. LAYTON OF TAKOMA PARK, MARYLAND, AND FRANK R. CHOW OF SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA.



For a CIA Man, It's 1954 Again - Los Angeles Times

Phil Roettinger - IMDb

Until I read the little book by Lee Echols "Dead Aim" mentioned above, I did not know anything about Evaluators Ltd. . Maybe I had read about it once or twice somewhere, but it was something that was "before my time". Reading about it in the book, I started to enquire about it and found out exactly what it was and that Phil had been involved to a degree.

It was something he never mentioned to me, because had he done so I would have asked him "What was Evaluators?" So it never came up. I knew he had run his legitimate -- and on the side clandestine -- firearms manufacturing company in Mexico City. But the story about Evaluators Ltd. in Echol's book was all new history to me.

Reading the links that Lobo Posted, made me realize that Mr. Roettinger was a man of ethics not politics. And I'm positive that we all can learn a lot of him.

He was a really great guy all the way around. He wore a stock O.D. green Marine Corps cover everyday he was alive and walking the streets here in town. He had two V.W. Safaris, one blue one that was his and a brownish/gold one that had earlier belonged to John Muir (How to Keep your Volkswagen alive: for the complete idiot). A 1972 model.

The blue one -- exactly like my own but made in again 1972 whereas mine was one of the last 1980 models -- had special mounts for a Kayak rack he had built to be able to go paddle around the local dam in his Kayak. Oh, and he had an altimeter installed in the dash panel. He told me -- this would have been in 1998 or so -- that he took his blue Safari down to Guatemala in the late ´80's or very early 90´s before I met him and that he enjoyed having the Altimeter during those mountain drives.

The John Muir Safari is still here in town, being driven by his ex-gardiner. I see it from time-to-time. I saw the blue one, only a few years ago, parked in the airport parking lot in Huatulco, Mexico when I flew down there with the family for a week's get-away. I recognized it from the mounts for the Kayak holder and the altimeter in the dash. I have no idea who owns it now, or how it ended up there.

By "Safari" I mean the Mexican V.W. product, not some other maker. It was known as "The Thing" in Canada and the U.S., but here is was called the "Safari". The Type 181 V.W. Civilian copy of the German W.W. II Kubelwagen. Phil's blue one was exactly the same color as mine, but had an altimeter in the dash panel and the pre-1974 flush-body air-intakes instead of the post-1974 intakes which stick out at the back there. I drove mine for 20 years around town -- generally with my targets just sitting in the back. Why not? I called mine "The Batmobile". The garage in the house was "The Batcave". In cheeky moments, the step-son is "Alfred". Phil had two of the 1972 models and one of them is still seen around town.

Lately a couple or three really lucky guys managed to get themselves some Reg. Mag.s that they posted here on the Forum and in a couple cases they showed the grips numbered to the gun. I am too lazy to reread this thread all through again but I think it was mentioned the grips on Phil's gun are not numbered. Here is a shot I took today (I'm batchin' it today so I have some peace around here) of the backside of the grips which you can see are not numbered to anything:



Since I had the gun out of it's protective cacoon, I thought I'd take a few shots of it. I am not a good photographer and I don't have a great camera but I thought this one was sort of nice:



...and I liked this one too...



...and I threw in the "The First and the Last" type photo of my nearly-the-last Pre-War Magnum with a modern-latest-type 627. I think they're cool together.

I took these today for another thread in this section on old clunkers that still have some use entitled:
Lets Not Forget Those High Functioning Ugly Ducklings

Here's what I got today. It's cloudy here, threatening rain but it better hold off because we don't sell Ice Cream when it rains. It can rain tonight after we close. These were just taken within the last half-hour for that ugly-duckling thread but should also be posted here I guess.

Cheers!

Cal, thanks for re-posting the pictures. I was living in San Miguel at the time when Muir and the Santa Fe NM contingent was in full force. I did meet Phil, along with several other of his contemporaries, WWII veterans and other agency men.
Raining here in Texas as well, same weather pattern.
Resolved to getting down to visit next tip south. Even if it hairlips the pope.

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Halfway and one more step

Thanks, calmex!
There's no such thing as too many pictures of that historical S&W.

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John

Thank YOU, JayCee. Ah-hem, yes, I guess I'm beginning to notice that.

I think this is the most amazing and interesting thread that I've ever read in my almost 9 years on the forum.
MORE please!

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Sure you did

Very interesting. Thanks. Almost as interesting as the revolver are the laws in Mexico.

"..cannot legally . shoot it." "...cannot dream of owning..." Either that thing is full-auto with a 100 round auxiliary cylinder and shoots armor piercing or Mexico is adopting the gun laws of California?

John
Scoundrel and Ne'er-Do-Well in Training

I think many would agree that Mexican gun laws are far more stringent and repressive than those in effect anywhere in the USA. Only problem is that the Mexican Narcos pay no attention to the Mexican gun laws (or any other laws), just like in the USA.

Then here's a new shot of the cut in the trigger guard for you. That has never been properly photographed and now that I am figuring out how to do half-decent close-ups with this camera....

Thank you. I had to photograph our new IPSC Club patch for the guys down here and read this post just before taking the shot, so I threw in Phil's revolver with a new-production 627 and the patch because the two revolvers "spice up" the photo.

Kurt Sutter fans will notice that our San Miguel - Queretaro IPSC club blatantly ripped off his intellectual property by using the name "SaM-Qro" IPSC. Oh, well. We're in Mexico. We don't use no stinkin' copyright lawyers. Sorry, Kurt. Love your show, though.

Mexican gun laws are draconian. Violation of them (by the law-abiding) can go very badly for a person. Yet, at the same time, if you jump through the hoops and you have your permit you are fairly safe if you stay within your permit's limitations.

I covered pretty well the Mexican Gun Laws in this thread:
International law or protocol

At the time Phil originally registered his NRM here it was under the 1972 gun law which prohibited many, many calibers and firearms. (The .38 Super became prohibited at that time although many U.S. gun writers continue to insist it is legal in Mexico, which for civilians it is not.) He registered it as a .38 Special and it is thus registered today. His background and connections would have made that easy for him.

Although Mexican Gun Laws are very strict, like anything in Mexico, the "law" is variable. A stern-faced Mexican desk sergeant in charge of gun-registration may balk at your old pre-model 10 because it does not have a Model number on the yoke and it would behoove you to not point out the flaw in his knowledge in anything other than the must humble of tones. At the same time, the next person in line may have given the Sergeant a nice bottle of 100.00 dollar-a-bottle tequila last Easter and the Sergeant won't look too close at the fact that the Mini-14 he's trying to register is in fact illegal for civilian ownership.

That does not mean that being caught with a Mini-14 so registered on the highways is going to save you from the full weight of the law. However, the same Mini-14 used to defend your home during a home-invasion would be considered "duly registered" because you weren't out-and-about with it.

New members to our group -- especially the Nervous Nellies -- often try to peg us down to specifics with questions that start off like; "well...what if I did THIS, would that be okay?"

The frustratingly true answer is often "It depends...." because it certainly does. Who you know. Where you were. Who exactly caught you? The law is variable.

And it would have been more-so in 1972 when Phil registered the thing. And Phil was a "get 'er done" kind of guy anyway. He'd have had no problems. Somewhere around here, I have the original "Mexican Registrations" in his name. I suppose I should dig them up and scan them, although they are all just more bureaucracy in Spanish.

Hiya Cal, glad to see the new pics, keep rocking.

Thank you, Curtis!

Everyone should know if you haven't read the whole thread that 29aholic paid -- out of his own pocket and at a time of dire financial need himself -- for my factory letter on this revolver. I cannot thank him enough, and he deserves all possible credit for having stepped up and done it because I'd still have not gotten 'er done.

I owe you! Hope things are improving up there for you job-wise! Things are still slow down here, but not as bad as they were in 2009 - 2010.

Cheers!

I snapped a last couple shots over the top-rib of the sights. The rear sight is "as I got it" when Phil died, I did not paint it or anything.



Kinking the hand a bit to get a better shot further up the rib.

Lots of Phil Roettinger ads around town right now for the "Feed the Hungry" Art sale. Here's a "copy and paste" of one of the ads running around town on the Internet and on flyers and such. Phil painted. I think it was his wife Holly who told me once that painting was something he found useful as a Spy. He could put on his "old Gringo" outfit and go set up on a street corner and paint all day, watching whoever or whatever he wanted to watch without drawing suspicion.

Also, a "link" is being sent around town with the revelation that Phil might have been in the C.I.A., linking to this article:
http://www.umbc.edu/che/tahlessons/p...udent:RS10.pdf

So that's all kind of interesting. Here's the copy of the "Feed the Hungry" ad going around right now. As I said in an earlier post, at the end of things Phil was often quite contrary to many things he'd done earlier. I actually never talked as much with him about his "change of heart" in regards to the past as perhaps I should have. I guess I really never knew enough about it to even start the conversation in the first place. And I was more interested in World War II anyways, at the time.


A collection of artworks that have accumulated over the years is coming out of Feed the Hungry’s closet. We have lowered the price on 68 paintings and photographs by 50% to 75% off of their listed prices. Half of this collection is the work of "fine artist” Phil Roettinger.

The prices are ridiculously low… the object is to get this very fine artwork out of the closet and onto the walls of appreciative art lovers!!

Join us on Saturday, July 12th from noon till 4pm for a glass of wine and take home one or more of our treasures!

Cash is preferred but we can accept your Credit Cards.

Feed the Hungry Center
Camino a la Cieneguita 100

Look for the article in Friday’s Atencion: Art Comes Out of the Closet!!



HOW TO GET THERE:
Cross the railroad tracks and veer right onto the paved road:
In less than 2 minutes you will see a tienda and the Ramirez Construction Materiales bodgea directly in front of you;
That is where you turn RIGHT.. Camino a la Cieneguita 100 is clearly marked, there is a mosaic of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the wall, and a red Feed the Hungry sign… hard to miss, but people do… (hint: if you drove past Ramirez Materiales Construyendo you have gone too far… turn around)

Feed the Hungry is the second driveway on the LEFT… also marked with a red FTH sign. We’ll see you there!!!

How "Feed the Hungry", a Gringo run local charity ended up with a large quantity of Phil's art to sell is beyond me. One of our own Gun Club guys is quite involved in Feed the Hungry and so he tuned me into all the hoopala going on just today. I do intend to drop by the event and take a look at what's there. Maybe I'll run into someone else who knew Phil. Or maybe not.

Here is a link to the actual blurb in Atencion San Miguel (the local English language Newspaper which should never be taken too seriously) about the Art-auction next week which will have Phil Roettinger paintings. Myself and several guys and girls from our gunclub will be going to see who's there and who's who.

Art comes out of the closet | San Miguel de Allende | Atención San Miguel

As I mentioned, one of our own Gun Club guys is involved in Feed the Hungry. He did me the favor of actually going and photographing a few of the Roettinger pieces that they are selling this weekend so I could post them here. When I saw the photos, I said; "Say, Phil was pretty good!"

My friend asked me had I not ever looked at his work? I had to reply that although I had probably leaned against the stack of framed paintings in his little studio more than a few times while visiting him, we were talking about guns and W.W. II. I wasn't looking at his art and he never really mentioned it.

But it's not bad stuff. This is an "artist community", I get to see a lot of junk. There's no guns in these photos, but they are thread related I think. Anyways, here's 3 of them for you to see for yourselves.

Cheers!

Well here's hoping the fund raiser goes well, I'd have liked to get a piece of work done by Roettinger.
I've been down on the border for the last week, kind of out of touch.

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Halfway and one more step

Well, I read this too late. I was there, there was a lot of stuff, and I doubt it all sold. I'll have my guy try to photograph what remained so you can choose a piece and we'll see if we can get you a "rock-bottom" price.

Cheers!
Cal

Thanks Cal, making a donation, scoring a painting of a campesino and getting an excuse to go pick it up! Que buen negocio!

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Halfway and one more step

Well, Old TexMex, your contribution came through. My friend James picked up your Roettinger painting and delivered it to the store this morning. I let my employees -- who all knew Phil Roettinger -- look at it and we had it hanging in the store for the morning.

It's at home now, and I've taken a photo here of it with Roettinger's revolver laying on it.



...and here's the way it would have looked if Clint had actually made "Non-Registered Magnum Force" during the title sequence -- assuming they used a Roettinger painting as the backdrop instead of a red screen. Unfortunately, that script got dropped in favor of something more comical and they made "City Heat" instead. Oh, well.

Thank You for This post! I think it answers a question that came up today when I was on the phone trying to get some answers on Reg. Magnum #40 and its history. The grip frame was altered at the Frank Pachmayr shop. I had a question on how far out the strain screw was as the recollection was the gun had some factory service grips that were modified to fit the new grip frame. There was apparently a grip adaptor on the gun at one time that conformed to the grip and the top of the strain screw. I figured it was a Pachmayr (or Mershon) but the older Pachmayr one for the N frame doesn't quite jive on the bottom with the modification. Seeing yours makes sense that I have a feeling that the grip adaptor was contoured and cut down to anchor on top of the strain screw. It is obvious from yours that this was not an unusual practice, combined with one of the adaptors I have has some grinding done on the right side.

When I get new grips made, or old ones modified, I will add a modified Pachmayr adaptor to blend with them as well. Again, this thread has been an amazing read and very motivational for me now having a Registered Magnum with more "history" and use than originality. I don't think anyone I know would take a pristine Reg. Magnum over yours with all the scars and battle memorials and owned by a truly great man.

Cal, thanks for the new photos and updates for what is still (does this sound familiar) my favorite thread on this or any other gun forum. Ever.

Oh, and I ordered an autographed copy of Dead Aim thanks to this thread and look forward to reading it soon. Can't wait.

Also agree (of course) with the wise Nyeti that no minty Registered or Non-Registered Magnum could compare with Phil's salty-but-still-nice .357 and its unique history.



#threadfortheages

While I am still working on the history on mine, this thread was the inspiration for me to pull the trigger on Reg Magnum #40 that had a very long history at LAPD and was converted to a 3.5" nickel and round butted by Frank Pachmayer........as much as it is wonderful to find them in near new condition in the box, I love the ones where you just look at the gun and can feel real emotion and history flowing out of it. Some of these have some real personality and were "there" during a time when they were carried by the greatest generation. As we lose these great men and women everyday, it is important that these historical treasures remain with us as reminders of these Americans great sacrifices for this country.

So, I have to ask...how did it shoot? I have not shot Phil's in quite a while, but everytime I did shoot it I always really enjoyed the experience. I love my Model 28/23 competition gun and have it tuned to perfection but Phil's is Phil's. It's a whole 'nuther thing.

Photo: Phil's gun mixes nicely with guns we're actually using. Top to bottom:

- a friend's post-war transitional Outdoorsman that had a bulged barrel and other "issues" that has been refinished and barrelled with a Model 23 barrel fitted with a pinned Red Ramp front sight. Cokes from Ebay.

- the Model 28 that has become my current Mexican IPSC revolver, now with Yellow-Green ramp front sight, Heavy Duty Cylinder, and a little tuning. Great gun.

- Phil's. What more needs to be said? It was Phil's. It's the one we compare the "feel" of all our double-actions to and hope to come close. The single-action pull, as I have stated in other threads, is much heavier on Phil's than I would have thought he might like. But it is.

- My 1956 era Heavy Duty. Of all these guns, Phil's is rarely used these days. The rest, certainly monthly and some almost weekly.

I have to get grips made for it. I am working on some options. It also needs a rear sight screw, but I will shoot it without it......likely just once. I daily carry a soul-less polymer pistol. I am a professional trainer, and it is a tool (HK VP9) that gets treated like one. I have taken up competitive shooting again after a 20 year hiatus. It is purely for fun and I am shooting all steel non-pretending to be tactical stuff. I am using a 686SSR with the only goal......beating the autos, and keeping my revolver skills in tact. I started my cop career with a 4" 25-5, so I am sort of old school with the N frames and revolvers in general. I have a lot of collectable and wonderous revolvers and 1911's that are my passion. I have finally gotten to the point of not having to justify any sort of need for many of my guns and I simply love them for what they are. I have started writing for some places outside of the Surefire Combat Tactics magazine and most of those articles will be on revolvers and 1911's. Trust me, a article with my name on it will be published on the 3.5" S&W .357 Magnum that I consider the best looking and most purposeful revolver ever made.....just an opinion.
Again, while the true museum quality guns are great, the ones with a "story" are my favorites.

Nyeti,

Good to see you posting here and especially in this uber thread. I have been super busy of late and rarely post on any of the forums any more...but I have to check in on this thread from time to time.

Look forward to your article-- hope they will give you the space to make it a "best ever" piece like the one you did on our beloved German staple guns.

Grin.

Clyde

Phil's NRM has a rather heavy single-action pull, in my opinion, being close to 3 pounds although very crisp. This surprises me, as Phil was a target shooter and I did not expect this. The double-action pull is smooth, light enough to be "wow" at around 8 pounds -- this with all springs tightened correctly.

My only real point of comparison is a friend's RM that we found in Leon, Guanajuato, about an hour-and-a-half drive from here. It was owned by the son of a man who supposedly was the original owner but without a letter that would be hard to prove. At any rate, it has been here for quite a while. However, if it's only been here 55 years of it's 76 - 77 year lifetime, how would we know without a letter? It would certainly seem to that family that the gun had been around for a long time, but that proves little.

The trigger actions on my friend's RM are the reverse of mine: single-action very light, almost touch-feather light although it has no push-off nor will it let go slapping the side of the cocked, unloaded revolver. The double-action pull was heavy at around 12 - 13 pounds and not delightful. This after cleaning about 55 years of crud out and lightly oiling it. Since I do not have a large gaggle of RM - NRM examples around here to compare, it's all I've got to go on when I comment that Phil's single-action seems heavy to me.

Phil's gun on top, my friend's RM on the bottom which he got for an even 1,000.00 dollars as the family was selling it to "pay some bills" and were thrilled to get one-thousand bucks for it. His has to stay hidden at the bottom of his safe as it cannot be registered now (Phil's came to me registered) here under the law...but he has it.



A photo I have not posted of my Model 28/23 Mexican Competition gun, marked in .38 Special with a Heavy Duty cylinder installed and green-ramp front sight. Next to Phil's, this is my favourite revolver and the one I use more than any other. It turned out nice and I shoot it a lot.

Barrel length on the two Magnum's? Bottom rm looks like a 3.5 inch.

Phil's is a 5. Bottom one is a 4. Both pretty much "bang on" for measurement. I know of a 3.5 incher in Mexico City, but getting it is still something under negotiation. I have photos of the 3.5 incher, but going there and picking it up and smuggling it back here (not to mention the transfer of around 1,500.00 dollars) is a song-and-dance yet to realized.

Calmex, looks like your nrm has a king reflector. Is the 4 inch a call bead, or standard patridge. I like details. The rm I just purchased has a red king reflector and king rear white outline square notch. Regards from Minnesota.

Hello Lowhog. What's the weather like up there? It was cold here last night but warm and sunny again today. Crazy mountain weather.

Phil's gun has the King reflector sight as you say, but I have no good photos of that. I will have to take one. Be right back.
Say, that came out okay. I should add here as an "edit" that Phil's front sight is 1/10th of an inch in width.



Phil's gun is a 5 incher, pretty much bang on.



The 4-inch RM belonging to my friend has a Call bead as you correctly surmised. I have no decent photo of it, and will have to rephotograph the gun when my friend gets back from sailing around Puerto Vallharta harbor, whenever that will be. In this photo, you can almost see it. I was foolish not to document that bead but will do it when he gets back.



The bead is "flush" into the sight, not protruding at all. I have gone through all the photos I took -- some of which I did not post at the time -- in the hopes of finding one that showed the bead but to no avail. But it is not simply a patridge sight, it definitely has the little Gold Bead. Wish I had taken a more decent photo of it.