|
|
04-25-2022, 12:11 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19
Likes: 20
Liked 27 Times in 12 Posts
|
|
1905 4th change target headed my way
I will have a 1905 4th change target coming my way soon, somewhere in the 300,000 serial number range. It has convex no-medallion grips, it's 38 special, and has no "Made in the USA" on the right side of the frame and no S&W crest or other markings on either side of the frame. I am new to the target models, the grips are 1920 or later I ascertain. Is the serial range correct for a Target model, assuming they were built and shipped later than regular models. I have read also that Target models often lack markings on the frame that conventional models have. Is this gun likely made 1920 or so?
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 07:58 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Central Oklahoma
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 1,845
Liked 6,042 Times in 1,108 Posts
|
|
Well............
302321 shipped in June 1919 and 348849 shipped in July 1920 if that helps, but I don't think target or not had anything to do with ship dates, just how bad you wanted to hit something!
Lets see some pics!
230948 shipped in 1914
__________________
When words fail, music speaks.
|
The Following 12 Users Like Post:
|
Billylee, delta-419, digi-shots, Hawg Rider, James E. McCall, LanceWhite, moosedog, pawncop, RKmesa, Russell Cottle, SS336, Wiregrassguy |
04-25-2022, 10:59 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar City,Utah
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 5
Liked 3,007 Times in 837 Posts
|
|
I have two. One from 1924 and one from 1934. To tell you the truth, I have never fired either, but the workmanship on these is second to none. I think everyone should have at least one in their collections. Enjoy. Big Larry
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 01:04 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,500
Likes: 5,121
Liked 19,049 Times in 6,879 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbrgr1
I don't think target or not had anything to do with ship dates
|
Actually there are some indications that it did. Target models were in less demand and orders were therefore slower in many cases. So ship dates on target models are sometimes later than fixed sight models in the same serial range. Keep in mind there was a cost differential. Also, police agencies accounted for a significant portion of purchases and they tended to buy mostly fixed sight revolvers.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 03:04 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Central Oklahoma
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 1,845
Liked 6,042 Times in 1,108 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK
Actually there are some indications that it did. Target models were in less demand and orders were therefore slower in many cases. So ship dates on target models are sometimes later than fixed sight models in the same serial range. Keep in mind there was a cost differential. Also, police agencies accounted for a significant portion of purchases and they tended to buy mostly fixed sight revolvers.
|
Thanks! Always learning..........
Would they make a bunch of target models and then wait for orders? or make a bunch of everything and the targets were just slower sellers.
__________________
When words fail, music speaks.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 04:43 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Grinder's Switch, TN
Posts: 1,680
Likes: 1,440
Liked 1,444 Times in 664 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbrgr1
... Would they make a bunch of target models and then wait for orders? or make a bunch of everything and the targets were just slower sellers.
|
They most likely built some target models from scratch, but... On pre WWII guns, they could easily convert any fixed sighted M&P to a target model by simply milling off the front sight blade, then milling a notch in the base and drilling a hole for a pin to retain the new sight blade. All barrels at that time were actually forged with the fixed sight blade, so the blade always had to be milled off to build a target sighted gun. It was (and still is) also a simple procedure to mill a groove in the top strap of the frame to accomodate an adjustable target sight.
Mark
__________________
S&W Forum Member #721
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 07:53 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19
Likes: 20
Liked 27 Times in 12 Posts
|
|
Here are a few pics, I have it in hand. It has holster wear (it appears) on the barrel and finish loss on the frame. Action is butter smooth and the trigger pull is definitely lighter than a standard M&P. Looks like it was carried and used some.
|
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 09:49 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,051
Likes: 918
Liked 9,935 Times in 3,651 Posts
|
|
Yeah, but----------------------------------------------
The target guns got special treatment (starting I don't know when, and stopping I don't know when), but there was a whole lot more to it than swapping sights----------
This from the 1925 catalog (following a bit where they're doing their damnedest to convince the reader fixed sight guns are just as good as target guns---which are merely-------------------different: "For these reasons a special type of trigger pull is desirable-----not by any means simply a very light pull, but one having the peculiar quality termed "short and crisp" by shooters. This not only requires a special type of notch and trigger point, but requires a different adjustment of the working parts of the action."
As an aside, the single action trigger pull of the time was 3-4 lbs. for target, 5-7 lbs. for fixed sight. In the for what it's worth category, I had 14 M&P Targets in my collection of target guns ranging in age from those shipped in 1910 to those shipped in 1936 (just because I had the hots for M&P targets). The single action trigger pull was 3.5 lbs. right down the line.
Now, during the time of the top-breaks, it was commonplace to create a target model simply by swapping out the sights.
Ralph Tremaine
Last edited by rct269; 04-25-2022 at 10:08 PM.
|
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 10:13 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar City,Utah
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 5
Liked 3,007 Times in 837 Posts
|
|
Check out the front sight. Appears to be a special order thin round top. I have one of those on my 1920's 44 HE 2nd model target. Big Larry
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 10:26 PM
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 1,048
Liked 6,619 Times in 1,535 Posts
|
|
1905 Targets are some of the finest revolvers ever made in my opinion. I have always enjoyed shooting mine and marvel at their workmanship.
__________________
John. SWCA #1586
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 10:30 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2020
Location: AZ-Sierra Vista
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 3,901
Liked 6,728 Times in 1,283 Posts
|
|
|
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-25-2022, 11:42 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pikeville, Tennessee
Posts: 6,051
Likes: 918
Liked 9,935 Times in 3,651 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryofcc
Check out the front sight. Appears to be a special order thin round top. I have one of those on my 1920's 44 HE 2nd model target. Big Larry
|
The Thin Round Top Blade was standard on hand ejectors from 1905 to 1923----and available on order up to 1942.
Ralph Tremaine
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-26-2022, 11:05 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar City,Utah
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 5
Liked 3,007 Times in 837 Posts
|
|
Not much help but my # 477937 Target, was shipped 5-1924. All standard with the patridge front sight. Non medallion stocks numbered to the gun in pencil. Big Larry
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-26-2022, 12:35 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,046
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
|
|
I have not seen a white plastic bead on any K frame target made in the 1920s, plus that sight does not appear to be S&W. The stocks on Rodan's gun are from the 1930s so not original either.
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515
Last edited by glowe; 04-26-2022 at 12:36 PM.
|
04-26-2022, 08:02 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19
Likes: 20
Liked 27 Times in 12 Posts
|
|
Serial number is 302377, the grips are not numbered but a perfect fit. Wonder if the grips are original to the gun or not?
|
04-26-2022, 09:53 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Grinder's Switch, TN
Posts: 1,680
Likes: 1,440
Liked 1,444 Times in 664 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceWhite
Serial number is 302377, the grips are not numbered but a perfect fit. Wonder if the grips are original to the gun or not?
|
Hundred year old pencilled serial numbers on grips can be nearly impossible to see. Sometimes you can detect faint numbers with different lighting angles, and sometimes they show up better in a photo than with the naked eye.
If both panels fit the frame perfectly, it would be easy to think they're the ones that left Springfield attached to that gun. If you're not sure what to look for as far as how they fit, show us pics that show the fit on all sides of the grip frame. There are plenty of us here who can usually tell at a glance whether a set of grips was fitted to the gun they're on.
Mark
__________________
S&W Forum Member #721
|
04-27-2022, 11:08 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar City,Utah
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 5
Liked 3,007 Times in 837 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelgun610
Hundred year old pencilled serial numbers on grips can be nearly impossible to see. Sometimes you can detect faint numbers with different lighting angles, and sometimes they show up better in a photo than with the naked eye.
If both panels fit the frame perfectly, it would be easy to think they're the ones that left Springfield attached to that gun. If you're not sure what to look for as far as how they fit, show us pics that show the fit on all sides of the grip frame. There are plenty of us here who can usually tell at a glance whether a set of grips was fitted to the gun they're on.
Mark
|
This is so true. I bought a near to mint 20's Reg. Police, and pulled the stocks. No number. My friend took it home and deep cleaned and Ren Waxed it. Got a call a little later. Good news. I went over the stock with a good glass and found the number. I guess the penciled number just fell off after 100 years. Don't have that problem with stamped numbers. Big Larry
|
04-27-2022, 03:39 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19
Likes: 20
Liked 27 Times in 12 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelgun610
If both panels fit the frame perfectly, it would be easy to think they're the ones that left Springfield attached to that gun. If you're not sure what to look for as far as how they fit, show us pics that show the fit on all sides of the grip frame. There are plenty of us here who can usually tell at a glance whether a set of grips was fitted to the gun they're on.
Mark
|
Looking at blown up pictures, the front doesn't fit perfect.
Last edited by LanceWhite; 04-27-2022 at 03:40 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-27-2022, 05:36 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 2,241
Likes: 6,349
Liked 3,401 Times in 582 Posts
|
|
A Birthday Gun "sort of"
Looking at all of the fine old 38 target S&Ws reminded me that I had one buried somewhere in the far reaches of my safe. I never got around to lettering it, those many years ago when I paid less than $250 for it at a local AL gun show. I had seen it at the show several times over the months and nobody wanted the old brown gun from the 1920s. She shoots like a true S&W with a very smooth action with all matching numbers. Why a birthday gun, you ask, because the engraved number on the side of the frame is my birthday only with year, month, and day reversed. I never figured out what
A.P. CO. means. Serial number 445014 if you are like me and have difficulty with the photo of same. She has been carried a lot over the years with holster wear at the muzzle. These target guns are great if you can find one, in any shape, true quality!
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-27-2022, 06:10 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar City,Utah
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 5
Liked 3,007 Times in 837 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta-419
Looking at all of the fine old 38 target S&Ws reminded me that I had one buried somewhere in the far reaches of my safe. I never got around to lettering it, those many years ago when I paid less than $250 for it at a local AL gun show. I had seen it at the show several times over the months and nobody wanted the old brown gun from the 1920s. She shoots like a true S&W with a very smooth action with all matching numbers. Why a birthday gun, you ask, because the engraved number on the side of the frame is my birthday only with year, month, and day reversed. I never figured out what
A.P. CO. means. Serial number 445014 if you are like me and have difficulty with the photo of same. She has been carried a lot over the years with holster wear at the muzzle. These target guns are great if you can find one, in any shape, true quality!
|
Man, if that gun could only talk. You need a letter. I have a 4 digit K22 shipped on my 5th birthday. Big Larry
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-27-2022, 07:15 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Conroe Texas...
Posts: 4,019
Likes: 0
Liked 9,307 Times in 2,633 Posts
|
|
Texas Jake will be along soon to rub it in my face that he smooth-talked me out of my only .38 M&P target...I'll find another one though... ...Ben
__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...
|
04-28-2022, 08:43 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,218
Likes: 34,793
Liked 10,779 Times in 3,671 Posts
|
|
Quote:
I never figured out what
A.P. CO. means.
|
I believe that is Alabama Power Company, Jim. I'd letter that one. It likely shipped directly to APCO in Bham. As a former APCO employee, I'd be interested in seeing that gun in person. Maybe the next Dothan show?
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
Last edited by Wiregrassguy; 04-28-2022 at 08:45 AM.
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-28-2022, 09:03 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Michigan Western UP
Posts: 12,964
Likes: 3,046
Liked 14,343 Times in 5,470 Posts
|
|
God knows that any power company employee running around Alabama in the 1920s would have needed to be armed when telling people their land was condemned for a dam reservoir.
__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-28-2022, 09:14 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,218
Likes: 34,793
Liked 10,779 Times in 3,671 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
God knows that any power company employee running around Alabama in the 1920s would have needed to be armed when telling people their land was condemned for a dam reservoir.
|
Not wanting to hijack this thread, but the letter and APCO archives could turn up some interesting stuff. In addition to in-field exploration and development, Alabama ran a Convict-Lease system to raise revenue in that era. Could have been used in that regard.
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|