Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961
o

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:54 AM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

I think this is sorta exciting: http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5301039...471089232#1471089232 Check out Calmex's post.

Hope he comes back and tells us all about it, with pix!

Edited thread title to show what the topic is about.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 06-21-2007, 04:28 AM
handejector's Avatar
handejector handejector is offline
Administrator
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,010
Likes: 7,103
Liked 48,560 Times in 9,216 Posts
Default

Onomea,
It could, of course, also be a later pre-war NON-Registered Magnum.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-21-2007, 01:21 PM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

This is just in incredible!

Check out this message from Cal as posted in the prewar section:

Arlo/Onomea;
I sent you an email with two photos I have here of the gun. The gun was presented to Phil Roettinger by S & W in early 1942 for winning a match in Floriday, and it is engraved on the gun. He landed with the gun at Guadalcanal and later used it on Bouganville. He kept the gun through those actions -- place names (engraved by him) are on the gun as to where he used it in action. Later he became Station Chief for the C.I.A./Latin America, and kept the gun with him. He even arranged to have the gun registered here in Mexico as a "legal" firearm, which the .357 Magnum does not qualify for.

If you can post the photos, tell me in which thread you have done so and I will go there and tell you all I know about the gun. I do not know if it was a Registered Magnum or not, but perhaps you can tell from the photos. I do not believe there is ANYTHING written on the inside of the crane-yoke, but I will check when I go home today. But I think there is just NOTHING there, although there might be a serial number. I will check.
Thanks for letting me know a bit more about my gun. I knew it was quite valuable, and even more so because here in Mexico the .357 Magnum is illegal. This one was registered, and is registerd to me now by the Mexican Army. I cannot legally take it out and shoot it (although I do now and then as I have stated) but I can own it and most people down here cannot dream of owning a .357 without significant legal risks.
Cheers!
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5301039...391030332#2391030332

Here’s the pix:







On page 24 of the Jinks article, it says, “The last of the prewar Magnums were the 79 units finished in December, 1940. Three more magnums were built during World War II; two units in 1941 and one in 1942. No doubt these were for special high ranking officials.”

Friend Cal has the last pre-postwar magnum!! (Can’t very well call it the last prewar magnum if it was built in 1942.) A Non Registered Magnum. A very, very unique gun.

Man-o-man. Wow!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-21-2007, 01:32 PM
depicts's Avatar
depicts depicts is offline
US Veteran
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 435
Likes: 4
Liked 18 Times in 6 Posts
Default

How cool. You just never know what you're going to run into. It's what makes this so exciting.
__________________
S&WCA #2018
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-21-2007, 02:28 PM
N_itis N_itis is offline
SWCA Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Great gun, great story.

calmex should definately letter it. Although it was presented in 1942, it might have been "built" before then. Perhaps Smith&Wesson had some "club gun" type stock reserved which could be engraved and presented as needed. A call or email to Roy Jinks and a follow up letter request is in order.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-21-2007, 02:39 PM
OFT OFT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Odessa Texas U.S.A.
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

WOW!!! Great gun.

That baby is a safe queen because of the law there. That is a shame.
__________________
OFT/NRA LIFE MEMBER
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:03 PM
mtb1bkr mtb1bkr is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Man,
I would love to have a revolver like that with so much S&W and Marine Corps history tied to it. That is a beautiful gun.

Bill
__________________
US Marine, 16 years+
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:10 PM
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
Absent Comrade
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Any info on what the serial # is on this "Mexican Magnum"?

I have #62459, a 5", blue,original magnas and the HBH. As I "understand" it, #62489 is the LAST N frame made before the war.

Thanks for any info.

Bud
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:30 PM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is online now
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

Wow...just WOW ....what a unique gun!!
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-21-2007, 04:04 PM
jeremyws1 jeremyws1 is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 16
Liked 62 Times in 26 Posts
Default

From Wiki...

"Philip Clay Roettinger (September 22, 1915–January 7, 2002)

CIA Operations Officer (1954-1964) who helped plan and execute the 1954 overthrow of the Left-Wing Guatamalan government led by Jacobo Arbenz after it threatened to nationalize property owned by the United Fruit Company.

Served as a U.S. Marine Corps Colonel in the Pacific during World War II.

Graduated from Ohio Wesleyan University.

Son of former Ohio Judge S. C. Roettinger

Was a member of the U.S. shooting team in the 1948 Olympics in London.

After the CIA, Roettinger settled in San Miguel Allende, Mexico to devote time to painting and raising a family."
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 06-21-2007, 05:10 PM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

Marvelous. Just marvelous! I'm just speechless...

Lee, you were right about it being an NRM (non–registered magnum). Not that that detracts from the value – either in the commercial sense or the historical sense – a whit! Or maybe it is one of those “club guns,” I s’pose.

OFT, it’s no “safe queen!” Calmex says he takes it out and shoots it. And with its campaign history in the Pacific, no way to call this baby a safe queen! Who could imagine a more colorful, magnificent provenance for a gun!

N_itis, I suppose it might be one of the two 1941 guns. That's true. If so, still mighty darn cool. But I am holding out for it being the last one, the 1942 one!

Bud, I don’t know the SN. Hopefully Calmex will tell us here, or if he is concerned about it being public he can email us, for the RM data base and so we can get Roy (Roy Jinks, the S&W historian) to check it out. Plus he needs the factory letter from Roy anyway, of course (only $30, Cal) to document it properly. (Great to see you posting again, Bud, by the way. I have missed your always informative posts in your absence!)

Jeremy, good work on the Wikipedia bio. Man, this just gets better and better, doesn’t it? What a provenance!

After I posted the above info from Calmex, I went out for my morning walk and was thinking about this. With the Marine Corps and CIA background, records should be available from both organizations on Roettinger’s career. Plus the info along the lines Jeremy has turned up. And an Olympic shooter to boot! What an incredible, just incredible package Calmex has, and can further put together. What a display it would make!

Who knows, maybe if Calmex does put it all together, we could talk him into displaying at one of the SWCA meetings! Heck, I might even come over from Japan to see that!

Say, if you plug "Guatemala" and "Roettinger" into Google, all kindsa stuff turns up!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-21-2007, 05:53 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,499
Likes: 913
Liked 6,390 Times in 1,310 Posts
Default

Arlo

Don't know if he'd be able to travel with that gun, being as how its registered
with the Mexican Army. And if he did, and returned without it, what might happen
then ?

Later, Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:10 PM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Arlo

Don't know if he'd be able to travel with that gun, being as how its registered
with the Mexican Army. And if he did, and returned without it, what might happen
then ?

Later, Mike Priwer
Mike, well, for starters, if I traveled with that gun, and returned without it, there'd be a coupla corpses lying around wherever the gun dissapeared!

No way I would ever let that one go, come hell or high water, were it mine!

Seriously though, you make a good point. Taking it out of country and then bringing it back might well be impossible. Hadn't considered that.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:58 PM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is online now
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

I doubt that gun will ever be allowed to leave Mexican soil. If he did get it here, he'd never get it back home. Shame, really.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:57 PM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf:
Any info on what the serial # is on this "Mexican Magnum"?

I have #62459, a 5", blue,original magnas and the HBH. As I "understand" it, #62489 is the LAST N frame made before the war.

Thanks for any info.

Bud
Bud, here ya go: 62485. Cal said he did not mind me publishing the SN here.

I am in touch with Cal who is workin' his butt off right now, crunch time at whatever work he does, and too busy to hang out with us at the moment -- plus his internet connections are iffy -- but he says he'll try to write up more about the gun and his friend Phil tomorrow, or barring that, on Sunday. He is pleased that we find his gun interesting, and says he has some interesting stories that Phil told him...

Say, maybe one of you boys with a pipeline to Roy could ask him details on that SN and then post here for the rest of us? I am an SWCA member, but have never used the site or contacted Roy. (Like it here just fine. )
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-21-2007, 08:35 PM
lonewolf lonewolf is offline
Absent Comrade
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Thanks, Arlo. Very interesting,and the #'s seem to fit. My NON-Reg, went to nearby NH, where I bought it about 15 years ago.

Its in excellent condition, but like ALL my revolvers, see's regular workouts in my "back yard". But only with "prudent handloads", ranging from 1200 fps. lswc gas checks, to 750 fps. wadcutter target loads-but ALL in .357 Mag cases to prevent chamber erosion.

Bud
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-21-2007, 09:58 PM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

I was the first IPSC Section Coordinator for the Province of Manitoba, Canada in 1980. Jeff Cooper was still World Director at the time. In 1990 Canadian Doctors told me my constant throat irritations were caused by the cold Manitoba climate and that perhaps I should consider moving to warmer climes. I came down to San Miguel de Allende, Mexico and worked around for a few years on odd jobs and finally ended up owning an Ice Cream Store. I bought myself an old classic VW Safari (Thing) because I thought it was cool.
One day, coming out of a restaurant, I saw an old guy admiring my car. I walked up to talk to him and he told me he had one JUST like it, same color, same model. His name was Phil Roettinger. He made some quip that I sensed was gun related -- oh, I remember, he made a Rat Patrol quip, that was it, and I shot back with another.
"You a shooter?" he asked me. I told him I was. He told me I should come up to his house some time to look at his guns.
"You have guns here?" I asked, astounded. I had thought that was impossible. He made a comment about how his former job had allowed him to get guns registered here in Mexico and left it at that.
Anyway, this is a long story and I am trying to make it short; I went to see him. We hit it off like peas in a pod even with 40 years difference in age. I mean, you had to SEE this guy. Big tall guy, beautiful ex-wife who still visited him all the time. Nice photo on his living room wall, the wife sitting on Manuel Noriega's knee. I mean, all the stuff that just made a young -- well, younger -- guy like me shake his head in absolute disbelief.
He showed me his guns and I saw the old 27. I picked it up, asked his permission to test the action, and admired it openly. He told me he had used it in the Pacific Campaigns -- in later years he told me so much more about that -- and had used it as a principal sidearm in the C.I.A. whenever he thought things might go really amiss. (His C.I.A. issue gun was an old pre-1957 style M & P .38 Special, no serial numbers, no markings. Period. A Doctor here in San Miguel owns it now. The Mexican Army ENGRAVED a serial number on it when they registered it. Aggghhh!!! Idiots!)
I remember turning to him that first day with the 27 in hand and saying, "When you die, this one's mine!"
His eyes sort of lit up, and he drawled, "Well, okayyyy." With a smile.
This started a friendship (this was 1991) that lasted until he died. He would come to my Ice Cream Store almost every day, and I ALWAYS stopped what I was doing to go sit and talk with him while he ate his Ice Cream. We talked about everything;
- Guatemala, and what happened there.
- Guadalcanal, and the whole campaign.
- Thompsons versus Grease Guns.
- Thompsons versus Garands, at night, during a Banzai attack.
Come on, figure it out. My Dad landed at Normandy (Juno) and I had become an EXPERT at making him talk. Phil was like my Dad, he wanted someone to tell this stuff to. I could ask whatever I wanted, I had 10 years to do it, and I asked a lot. He always answered as best he could. His ex-wife and daughter always told me that "Dad never talks to ANYONE...except you."
I remember doing so many things with Phil, whenever I could. It was sort of like the relationship between Denny Crane and Alan Shore on Boston Legal except we weren't lawyers. We were great friends, but 40 years apart in age and experience. I remember going to the 80th Birthday party of a first-day survivor (Stan Levine) of the landings on Tarawa, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. Man, there were two other Tarawa vets there. I went with Phil, and Phil's other "best friend", Colonel Phil Maher who was the American Consul in San Miguel at the time. It was Maher who, after Roettinger's death, arranged with the Mexican Army to actually let me register the Magnum he left me. Maher kept complaining "Cal wasn't even in that war..." . I was the youngest guy in the room by half. Roettinger cut him off with the comment, "No, but he SHOOTS better than you."
Anyway, I had a great time hanging out with those guys. They always called me "Boy" or "Kiddo" or whatever, but I didn't mind. Maher was also a W.W. II vet, a P-51 Pilot from the Pacific, and also later C.I.A. . I mean, those two guys knew were the bodies are buried and they were both ardent "gun guys". They are both gone now, but like my Dad, they were real heroes to me. They will live in my memory.
I was back in Canada in 2001 visiting my Mother, who had suffered a stroke. My Dad died in 1994 while I was down here and I wanted to be with Mom. When I got back here, I found out that Phil Roettinger had died and been buried while I was away. Well, that's life. My girls in the store told me; "The Spy has died." They called him "El Espia." They knew he was the ex-CIA Station Chief. It wasn't a secret or anything.
A month or so later, my phone rang at the store and it was Phil's daughter calling. She told me she was selling off her Dad's guns with the help of Phil Maher, (two Phil's, always confusing) the Consul. She paused, and then said; "He always wanted you to have the big one."
I sort of choked up for a minute, not knowing he had ever told anyone, and then blurted out; "I know."
"Well," she said, "come and pick it up."

Over the next few months, Phil Maher (the Consul) helped me with the Mexican Army so I could register the gun. Get this, I am Canadian, but the American Consul came to bat for me. Why the hell my country isn't backing the U.S. more is beyond me because in MY experience, well....the U.S. Consul sure went to bat for me and he didn't have to do that.
So, I have the gun. It is in my safe. I sometimes take it out -- in the bottom of the gunbag, and shoot it. It is not really dangerous, all the Police here KNOW I have a gun permit and can take my .38's and .22's and .380's -- the only guns permitted for civilian ownership in Mexico -- out to shoot. So they don't check me. They just wave me on through in my blue Safari (Thing). I reload for the gun, as I could never BUY .357 ammo here. Sometimes I do get the odd box of Factory .357 stuff smuggled down, it's how I get my brass -- but generally I have to reload. I can buy .38 Special ammo, and I sometimes shoot it with that. I guess you could call it a "Safe Queen with priveleges."
I tend to "baby" the gun, though, and don't shoot it often.

The other Phil, Phil Maher -- the former American Consul -- died past January. Another great loss of another great man.

I don't know what else to tell. If someone has specific questions about things, ask away. I will answer if I can, and will be honest about it if I do not know.

Thanks for reading and suffering through my remembrances of how that gun came to be sitting here in my safe.
Cal Nordman
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-21-2007, 10:21 PM
c pierce c pierce is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Calmex THANKS for that great story. It brought back a lot of old memories.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 06-21-2007, 10:48 PM
RKmesa's Avatar
RKmesa RKmesa is offline
SWCA Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 7,354
Likes: 27,584
Liked 45,310 Times in 4,759 Posts
Default

cal:

Great story and a wonderful gun. Thanks for taking the time to share.

RK
__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 06-21-2007, 11:13 PM
Babalooie's Avatar
Babalooie Babalooie is offline
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Near Chi-town
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 215
Liked 193 Times in 99 Posts
Default

Fantastic story. You have been truly blessed to have known such interesting heroes. On the other hand, you would not have ended up with the piece if you didn't deserve it. Old guy probably felt you earned it because of your relationship, and the fact you would properly take care of it.

All I can say, is, WOW!!!!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 06-22-2007, 05:09 AM
fat tom's Avatar
fat tom fat tom is offline
Absent Comrade
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Central South Carolina
Posts: 7,215
Likes: 6,581
Liked 12,383 Times in 2,810 Posts
Default

Great story! Congratulations on your good fortune in owning such a fantastic gun and in having known the two Phils.
f.t.
__________________
South Carolina-God's country
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-22-2007, 06:01 AM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is online now
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

Cal, what a wonderful and heartwarming story.
You were blessed to have known such a man as Roettinger, and he was blessed to have a friend such as you.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 06-22-2007, 09:24 AM
jd hubbard jd hubbard is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

The only thing as nice as a great old S&W is a great story about its history. Thanks.
__________________
JD
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:50 AM
hsguy hsguy is offline
Moderator
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 5,199
Likes: 1,041
Liked 6,601 Times in 1,533 Posts
Default

Thank you for the wonderful history. If you do a google search for "Philip Clay Roettinger" lots of info about him is to be found including the fact he did the cover art for a July 1939 Saturday Evening Post. A very interesting man. John
__________________
John. SWCA #1586
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-22-2007, 11:18 AM
handejector's Avatar
handejector handejector is offline
Administrator
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,010
Likes: 7,103
Liked 48,560 Times in 9,216 Posts
Default

calmex,
Wow, wonderful gun, and a great story. I thank you for sharing both.
Both Phil's sound like great men.
We would love to hear some of his stories when you have time. Particularly any stories relating to that gun in action in the Pacific.
And one other thing, please. Can you send one of us a better pic of the left side to post here? I blew it up, but it is a little too fuzzy to read anything but 'Guadalcanal'.
Thanks again.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-22-2007, 12:19 PM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

First off, I don't own a digital Camera. I will try to get a friend to do a photo if I can. The black and white photo was taken by a Liberal Artist here in S.M.A. who asked me if I couldn't come up with a "classic gun" for her to include as a photograph in her photographic exhibition so as to appeal to a "Conservative" clientele. She was not bad to look at, so I told her, "Boy, do I have the gun for you." She came over and we photographed the gun in Black and White, because that was the way she works, with the book "Shooting" which contains chapters written by Jeff Cooper underneath, and a target all shot to hell in the background (shot by the 27).
She gave me prints of the photo, and told me that it had sold VERY well, despite San Miguel's Liberal-limp-wrist-Artistic environment. Go figure. I have a large, framed copy of the print on my office wall and under that I have a photo of Phil Roettinger in his Marine Corp uniform taken when he won his National Championship. I will see if I can find someone who has a camera that I want to come over and take another photo of the gun -- I mean, I own the damned thing and so don't take photos of it. I just go over and look at it. Sometimes, I dry snap it (with snap caps to protect that precious firing pin). Occasionally, I shoot it. So there. But I will see what I can do.
The names on the side of the gun -- which are clear in my original print but seem fuzzy in the Internet photo -- are; Guadalcanal, Cape Torokina, Koromokina, and Piva Forks. It was a scan, after all, and might have blurred scanning? The last three names being, I believe, on Bouganville. Phil considered Bouganville the worst fight of all, it was the one he talked about the most.

I'm really busy right now so I don't have much time for the Internet -- which doesn't work all that well here anyway, but I will tell you one story about the gun that always comes to mind when people ask me about it.

My father fought in Europe, but friends of his had fought -- and been captured -- early in the war against the Japanese. Many died building the Burma-Thailand Railway, but some came back, and I was always interested in BOTH wars. I had read, or somebody maybe told me, when I was very young, about the "Possum Squads." The groups of men who went out amongst the Japanese bodies after an attack to make sure they were all dead and that nobody was laying in wait to try to kill just one more American. Normal proceedure was a shot to the head of the "corpse", just to make sure.
One day I was driving through San Miguel, back when it wasn't so conjested with cars, in my V.W. Safari. I had the roof and windshield down, and spied Phil Roettinger walking up the big hill towards his house. I pulled over and told him to "hop in", I'd take him home. Phil had the same type of car as me, but rarely drove once he started hovering around 80 years of age.
Anyway, almost immediately, our conversation turned to guns, and more specifically, THE gun. The Model 27.
"Did I ever tell you," he began with a ****-eating grin, "that THAT gun will go through both sides of a Japanese helmet?"
I remember turning to look at him as I drove, and answered, "With the Japanese head still in it, of course."
Phil's smile froze, and quickly disolved. He looked away from me, eyes squinting as if there was really enough wind to cause that at 10 miles an hour on our cobblestone streets, and then he said; "So, you know about that, huh?"
We didn't say anything more, and arrived at his house right away anyway. But the change in his demeaner, the way he looked away -- I guess my little wisecrack brought back more memories than it was meant to. I never asked him about it, but I know Phil would have been the type of man to not just order someone else to go do it, he would have been the first to do it so his men could see him do it.
Anyway, it's a story about the Model 27. It might not be the one you wanted, but it is always the first one that comes to mind when people ask me about it.
Cheers!
Gotta run.
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 06-22-2007, 02:50 PM
bk43 bk43 is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by calmex:
Thanks for reading and suffering through my remembrances of how that gun came to be sitting here in my safe.
Cal Nordman
I, and I'm sure others here, can only dream of owning a gun like yours. I'll read whatever you write and be waiting for more. Thank you!

Bob
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 06-22-2007, 04:21 PM
handejector's Avatar
handejector handejector is offline
Administrator
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,010
Likes: 7,103
Liked 48,560 Times in 9,216 Posts
Default

Quote:
Anyway, it's a story about the Model 27. It might not be the one you wanted, but it is always the first one that comes to mind when people ask me about it.
Cal,
First, don't bother with the pic. I blew up the black & white, and could read them after you listed them- THANKS.
As to the story, doesn't bother me a bit. Those men are Heroes, and all are due respect. They fought well, and long. Kudos to your Dad for Juno.
I am one of the dinosaurs that knows war is not genteel, nor clean and sterile. I don't care how one kills my enemy, even if he's already dead. I have a son who might wind up in Iraq, or some other armpit of the earth. I will tell him to err on the side of killing one too many instead of one too few, and doing too much collateral damage instead of too little. I have the dubious honor of having served in the only war we did not win. This, and our young being pulverized every few days by the IED's in Iraq, inspire my philosophy.
One does what one has to do. For example, I have never seen it in print as stated to be official, but the Airborne troops of D-Day were told they would not be taking prisoners. They would not have the time, personnel, or logistical ability to handle prisoners. Some old Troopers used to talk about it......
Thanks again for sharing some of the history tied to that gun.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #29  
Old 06-22-2007, 06:27 PM
Walter Rego Walter Rego is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Occupied California
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 1,512
Liked 5,558 Times in 1,602 Posts
Default

Calmex, thanks for sharing the story. I do have to ask this though. Given the corruption of the government and police in Mexico, aren't you worried that if the word gets out of the value and historical significance of such a gun, that someday it will be confiscated, only to end up in the personal collection of some corrupt official? If it were mine, I'd be figuring out a way to get it out of that county for safekeeping.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-22-2007, 07:10 PM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

Walter, I’ve been thinking about how Phil Roettinger retired to the area where Cal is, San Miguel de Allende, in the middle 1960s, and how Cal has been there for 17 years or so now, I guess. Of course Phil was very well connected, no doubt. But it seems both of ‘em, Phil and Cal, have made comfortable lives there.

While we do hear a lot about Mexican corruption and such, I bet if you become part of the community down there, learn how things work, that you are pretty safe. And it's also true that homes get broken into and guns stolen in the States, so who’s to say where it would be safer?

Cal, I just love those stories. I’d like to hear of any exploits Phil told you about, either in the Pacific as a Marine or in Guatemala or elsewhere, involving that “last magnum,” or involving any other guns for that matter.

Interestingly (to me), my dad was also a Marine Corps officer in the Pacific and later also a CIA officer, though in Asia and Europe in the 50's and '60s, and Vietnam, his last post. He passed on 12 years ago, but if Phil and he did not know each other, I bet they were aware of each other. (My dad didn’t have a cool magnum like that, tho, dadgummit! He favored a Browning HP.)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:29 PM
Homie Homie is offline
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 776
Likes: 574
Liked 271 Times in 181 Posts
Default

This is a great story about two legends- Phil and the Magnum. I don't know if many of you are aware of it but it was won with a gun made down the road in Hartford.

Cal, keep the stories coming!
__________________
Good shooting.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #32  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:58 PM
Babalooie's Avatar
Babalooie Babalooie is offline
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Near Chi-town
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 215
Liked 193 Times in 99 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bk43:
I, and I'm sure others here, can only dream of owning a gun like yours. I'll read whatever you write and be waiting for more. Thank you!

Bob
This is just my humble opinion, but I don't feel that someone actually owns a priceless treasure as this; they merely have custodial responsibility for it and are required to make sure that it is preserved for future generations.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #33  
Old 06-23-2007, 09:03 AM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

I agree with you. It's not like I am a collector, although I can understand collecting. The gun was left to me by someone who wanted it "cared for" and looked after. So it is my job to do it.
To answer an earlier thread about travelling with the gun outside of Mexico, I had a chance yesterday when the Mexican Army Captain in charge of firearms registration happened to visit my store to play "what if" with his knowledge of the system. I asked him, hypothetically, if someone WANTED to take a registered prohibited firearm OUT of Mexico, HOW would one do that?
"Well," he replied, "if it is registered and needs to be repaired by someone who does not LIVE inside of Mexico, it would have to be disassembled and the broken part shipped or preferably taken to the U.S. for the repair." We discussed this, and I asked pointed questions and have come up with this answer.
To remove the .357 from Mexico, I would have to disassemble it totally. This means, I hope you understand, removing the barrel pin and barrel as well. All the parts OTHER THAN THE ACTUAL FRAME can be transported (by me, as I have the permit) without hassle. The frame can also be transported, by me, without hassle, as long as the other parts are not present. In other words, I would have to tear the gun down and transport ALL the parts up to the border and cross them. This is not illegal. I would then have to return and grab the frame and transport it to the U.S. . To do that legally, I would need to have the A.T.F. form that allows me to import it but those are not all that hard to get, I had one for my K-38 when I was hoping to come up for a match in San Antonio -- although I never went due to finances. BUT, I got the import form easily enough.
I have rebarreled several guns, I have no problem actually doing it, and have all the tools here. I simply would have a problem doing it with THIS particular gun. I can imagine Phil wincing in Heaven and striking me with a lightening bolt for even doing it.
The penalty to be caught on the open highways -- especially outside of this State of Guanajuato where I would have no protection (my girlfriend works DIRECTLY with the State Governor, it helps when I can have "the man" give anyone hassling me a ring on the phone over some minor indiscretion...) would be JAIL. And remember; a MEXICAN Jail. Going to a Mexican Jail for ANY gun is a risk I am sure some people would take, but not me.
So I cannot bring the gun out to show it. But I have it and will protect it. IF I ever thought I had to sell it, I would inform you lot -- after all, I really seriously doubt there is a group of people in the World more qualified to have it -- and that would be that. If my health fails, or something happens to me, I have shown my girlfriend these threads and informed her that she should make sure the gun stays protected and that she should inform you all of it's sudden availability.
But I am only 49 (I was an IPSC Director at 22, the youngest in the World at the time according to Cooper and Murray D. Gardner, the Canadian Regional Director of the time), and I intend to last a while longer.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #34  
Old 06-23-2007, 09:14 AM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

On Phil's National Championship, I believe he won that with his .45. In the Marine Corps photo -- taken on the day -- I have in my office he has his Marine Corps Armorer customized 1911.
That gun resides with my best friend, Al Williams here in San Miguel. We fitted a .22 Conversion kit to the gun and registered it as a .22. Although the .45 HAD been registered, there was just no way we could get it registed to a civilian. Mine we got away with -- the .45 we could not do. We registered it as a "Ceiner .22" and the Mexican Army bought it.
I realize this is a bit off the M27 topic, but all of Phil's guns went somewhere and we generally got them good homes. I was lucky enough to end up being the home of the .357, which I am beginning to understand is a bit more classic than even I had imagined.
Gotta run again, it's a busy time in the Ice Cream business with the kids just getting out of school and stuff. I am glad you are all so interested in the gun. I really only have one other gun story involving the M27 from the Pacific, and it's probably not a great story but I will tell you about it when I get some more time.
Cheers!
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #35  
Old 06-23-2007, 12:57 PM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is online now
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

Cal, thanks so much for taking the time to tell us about the gun and the hero who owned it originally.
I know it's selfish of me, but I'm sad that you can't bring it to the U.S. for "show and tell" at a collector's meeting.
However, I'm sure it's in good hands with you from now until you can no longer take care of it.
I wish you a long and prosperous life!
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 06-23-2007, 05:22 PM
merlindrb's Avatar
merlindrb merlindrb is offline
SWCA Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Liked 224 Times in 34 Posts
Default

Cal - thanks to Arlo (Onomea) I've just picked up on this thread.

I collect pre-war magnums, specifically those with interesting histories. I have many that I cherish but none of them has the degree of personal involvement that you've had with this gun.

I envy you the pleasure of knowing Phil and ownership of such an extraordinary firearm. Thank you for sharing the background story.
__________________
Dave Ballantyne
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-23-2007, 07:26 PM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

I thought you’d appreciate the gun, and the story, Dave. I think it’s just great that the gun went to a close friend.

Say, do you think my surmise that it is the last magnum built to prewar specs is correct? As I posted: On page 24 of the Jinks article, it says, “The last of the prewar Magnums were the 79 units finished in December, 1940. Three more magnums were built during World War II; two units in 1941 and one in 1942. No doubt these were for special high ranking officials.”



N_itis, speculates that it might have been built in ‘41, which is possible enough, I suppose.

Bud, AKA Lonewolf, said that his understanding is that the last prewar N frame was 62489. Cal informed us that the SN of his magnum is 62485. Not sure where Bud learned that, but the remaining four could well be be 38/44s or 3rd Model HEs, I think.

I’d like to think Cal’s gun “The Last Magnum!” In any event, what a super gun and history!
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-23-2007, 08:21 PM
10-12 10-12 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 456
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Default

I’ve read many interesting threads on this Forum but I have never enjoyed one more. Thanks for sharing, Cal. As an old soldier, I really like those “war stories.”

Thanks,

Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #39  
Old 06-24-2007, 09:12 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
Absent Comrade
US Veteran
SWCA Founding Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Diego, CA. USA
Posts: 10,536
Likes: 3,529
Liked 6,883 Times in 2,796 Posts
Default

Arlo & others, 62485 was not the last pre war assembled Magnum shipped in WW2. My notes and factory records show there were three more shipped after 62485. They were 62186, 62187 and 62188. Two in 1943 and one in 1944. They were all blue guns with 8 3/4 inch barrels. Ed.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #40  
Old 06-25-2007, 02:41 AM
Onomea's Avatar
Onomea Onomea is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oregon & Japan
Posts: 14,103
Likes: 45,793
Liked 33,035 Times in 9,024 Posts
Default

Ed, thanks very much for the definitive clarification. So Roettinger's magnum was fourth from the very last. Still, I bet a more illustrious magnum, given its wonderful history, does not exist.

Thanks so much, Cal, for bringing it to our attention, and sharing its history with us!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #41  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:23 AM
cxm's Avatar
cxm cxm is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Florida, CSA
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Liked 37 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Cal,

Regarding the 1911 your friend has that was used in the 1942 Mid-Winters...

Would you know if the barrel bushing has "HARPE" stamped on it?

Thanks

Chuck

Quote:
Originally posted by calmex:
On Phil's National Championship, I believe he won that with his .45. In the Marine Corps photo -- taken on the day -- I have in my office he has his Marine Corps Armorer customized 1911.
That gun resides with my best friend, Al Williams here in San Miguel. We fitted a .22 Conversion kit to the gun and registered it as a .22. Although the .45 HAD been registered, there was just no way we could get it registed to a civilian. Mine we got away with -- the .45 we could not do. We registered it as a "Ceiner .22" and the Mexican Army bought it.
I realize this is a bit off the M27 topic, but all of Phil's guns went somewhere and we generally got them good homes. I was lucky enough to end up being the home of the .357, which I am beginning to understand is a bit more classic than even I had imagined.
Gotta run again, it's a busy time in the Ice Cream business with the kids just getting out of school and stuff. I am glad you are all so interested in the gun. I really only have one other gun story involving the M27 from the Pacific, and it's probably not a great story but I will tell you about it when I get some more time.
Cheers!
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 06-25-2007, 06:13 AM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

I don't know. But I can find out. My best friend here has the gun. It's registered as a .22, but of course he has the .45 slide and barrel hidden at home. I'll ask him to check and get back to you on that.
Phil told me that the .45 had been accurized by the Marine Corp Armourers. It also had Hi-viz fixed sights installed, front strap checkering, and a reworked trigger. Nice gun, for the time period.
So I have the 4th last gun of the Pre-War 27 style. Well, one cannot complain, can one?
Cheers!
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #43  
Old 06-25-2007, 01:49 PM
cxm's Avatar
cxm cxm is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Florida, CSA
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Liked 37 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Thanks very much Cal.

Jesse Harpe was one of the first gun smiths to do accuracy jobs on 1911s and he had some parts made with his name on them... most often seen is the barrel bushing. I think the Marines used some of his parts... in fact I have been told he did some guns for them... which is what I am hoping will turn up.

Jesse was a great gentleman... it would be great to see one of his guns survive.

V/r

Chuck


Quote:
Originally posted by calmex:
I don't know. But I can find out. My best friend here has the gun. It's registered as a .22, but of course he has the .45 slide and barrel hidden at home. I'll ask him to check and get back to you on that.
Phil told me that the .45 had been accurized by the Marine Corp Armourers. It also had Hi-viz fixed sights installed, front strap checkering, and a reworked trigger. Nice gun, for the time period.
So I have the 4th last gun of the Pre-War 27 style. Well, one cannot complain, can one?
Cheers!
Cal
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-25-2007, 03:20 PM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

Yeah, well, I talked to my friend today. I asked if there was any markings on the barrel. He said, "Uh, I think there is something on the barrel bushing...".
He hasn't gotten back to me yet, but it looks promising.
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #45  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:06 PM
cxm's Avatar
cxm cxm is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Florida, CSA
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Liked 37 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Cal,

Thanks very much... I'll cross my fingers...

V/r

Chuck

Quote:
Originally posted by calmex:
Yeah, well, I talked to my friend today. I asked if there was any markings on the barrel. He said, "Uh, I think there is something on the barrel bushing...".
He hasn't gotten back to me yet, but it looks promising.
Cal
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 06-25-2007, 05:31 PM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

The barrel says nothing. The Barrel bushing says DINAN. That's the latest on that.
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #47  
Old 06-27-2007, 10:43 AM
cxm's Avatar
cxm cxm is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Florida, CSA
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Liked 37 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Cal,

Thanks for the try... somewhere there must be a few out there.... somewhere...

V/r

Chuck

Quote:
Originally posted by calmex:
The barrel says nothing. The Barrel bushing says DINAN. That's the latest on that.
Cal
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 06-27-2007, 06:11 PM
A10ACN A10ACN is offline
SWCA Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Back in the USA!!!!!!!
Posts: 94
Likes: 199
Liked 39 Times in 21 Posts
Default

An Al Dinan built 1911 is nothing to sneeze at either, though if it was built by USMC armourers it may just be one of his bushings.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 06-28-2007, 07:15 AM
calmex's Avatar
calmex calmex is offline
Member
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: BC, & soon, Mexico again!
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 186
Liked 2,082 Times in 606 Posts
Default

I have no idea if the whole gun (1911) was built by Dinan, or just the barrel bushing. The gun is really nice, though, and I imagine Phil would have spared no expense at the time.

One thing I have forgotten to mention, and I don't have a good photo of it but you CAN see what I am talking about in the black-and-white photo of his Pre-27; on ALL his revolvers, Phil had the front-right-side of the trigger guard ground away. Not the entire trigger guard, just the front-right-side, going about half-way through the trigger guard.
I asked him about this, and he replied that he had really big hands (he did, he was a big, tall man, about 6 foot 6 or so) and that he did not like the Fitz cutaway trigger guard idea, so he did this to his revolvers to facilitate getting his trigger finger into the trigger area faster.
I have no idea whether this really helped him, or whether it was just "one of those ideas" that come along from time to time; but ALL his revolvers had it done to them -- except for a Colt Single Action Army in .38 special and a Colt Detective Special which were both gifts given to him by the President of Colt's Firearms at the time Phil was running his "Gun Company" here in Mexico. Neither of the two Colts had ever been fired and he sold them both to Collectors in the U.S. before his death. I believe the guns were taken to the U.S. for him by (then) U.S. Consul Phil Maher, who could manage such things without much hassle "diplomatically". Those two guns had not even been cocked, as I recall. He didn't let me cock them, and there was a plastic-lock-band zipped around the hammers on both of them to stop you from cocking them.
Phil had run a gun company here in Mexico in the '60's under the auspices of the C.I.A., to supposedly make Winchester Model 37A single shot shotguns. But he told me that they made a lot of "other things" there and that the company itself had been set up for that intended purpose; to manufacture stuff for the C.I.A. that they wanted no records of. Silenced pistols, rifles, full-auto conversion units for various types of rifles -- he hinted that he had made stuff for Castro pre-revolution, and he certainly KNEW Castro. It was Phil who had worked with the Mexican Government to get Castro out of a Mexican Jail back in the late '50's, or whenever Castro was jailed here. (Sorry, but Castro never interested me that much, and I just didn't ask much about the incident. It was Phil's ex-wife Holly Sawyer who told me more about the Castro thing than Phil ever did, although he had mentioned that he had met Castro a few times.)
Anyway, I got off track here; all of Phil's "duty" revolvers had the front-right-side of the trigger guard ground away and the Pre-27 was no different. It's something I had forgotten to mention, you can see it in the black-and-white photo, and I mention it just because it is pertinent to the gun.
Cheers!
Cal
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #50  
Old 06-28-2007, 12:23 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is online now
US Veteran
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico! Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The SW Va Blue Ridge
Posts: 17,471
Likes: 88,955
Liked 24,778 Times in 8,481 Posts
Default

Bill Jordan did that, the thinning of the trigger guard, to his revolvers also. He was another big man with large hands.
__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Tags
1911, 357 magnum, bianchi, bullseye, ceiner, colt, ejector, engraved, hand ejector, ipsc, jinks, jordan, m27, masaad, model 27, model 29, n-frame, nra, pachmayr, ppc, sig arms, wwii

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hello from New Mexico Shark Bait New Members Introduction 24 03-31-2015 07:52 PM
Question on .357 Magnum Transitional Postwar MayJimW S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 13 02-15-2014 01:13 PM
New To Forum, I have a gun.... 357 Magnum Transitional Postwar ACK95 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 36 12-30-2011 11:27 AM
.357 magnum transitional postwar box registered magnum S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 13 07-18-2011 10:08 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)