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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 03-10-2007, 08:41 PM
gerhard1 gerhard1 is offline
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Except for possibly improved steel, what are the differences between the US M1917 and the Brazilian contract 1937 revolvers?
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Old 03-10-2007, 08:41 PM
gerhard1 gerhard1 is offline
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Except for possibly improved steel, what are the differences between the US M1917 and the Brazilian contract 1937 revolvers?
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Old 03-10-2007, 09:57 PM
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To my mind, there are none worth mentioning except one. The top of the frame on a 1917 is rounded, and on a 1937 it's flat and MUCH easier for me to shoot accurately. It's amazing how much that small difference improves the sight picture.
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Old 03-10-2007, 10:18 PM
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Don't forget the price difference. 1917s bring twice, or more, what a 1937 brings.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pisgah:
To my mind, there are none worth mentioning except one. The top of the frame on a 1917 is rounded, and on a 1937 it's flat and MUCH easier for me to shoot accurately. It's amazing how much that small difference improves the sight picture.
Pisgah said it right with regard to sight picture! I have both, the 37 has a better sight picture.

However, there have been a few rounded M37's noted!
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Old 03-14-2007, 06:14 AM
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Do we really KNOW whether the steel was improved, via better heat treating? Did the Brazilian guns maybe use some remianing M-1917 parts?

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Old 03-14-2007, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Do we really KNOW whether the steel was improved, via better heat treating? Did the Brazilian guns maybe use some remianing M-1917 parts?
I see two distinct types of Braz's all the time- the flat-top Commercial type with checkered grips and high polish, and the standard military type round-top with duller blue and smooth grips. The interesting part is MANY of the flat-top Commercials will have a barrel, or cyl, or both, with eagle head inspector's marks, meaning they are left-over WW I parts. Of course the military types often have the same marks, sometimes on the frames as well.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:52 PM
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Below is a picture of the rear sights of both guns.



The sights are the most obvious difference. As is the finish. Most of the Brazilians, unless refinished, tend to have the civilian polish. Another difference is that the Brazilians' will have a S&W trademark stamp on the left side of the frame and the one line "Made in the U.S." on the right side. They will also not be stamped U.S. property.

The first group of guns was shipped to Brazil in Feb. of 1938 with other shipments going out till Oct. for a total of 25,000 guns. SCSW reports that some of these had serial numbers as low as 16974x. Later shipments were in (sn range 181983-207043)and 1946 when another order was shipped. These guns were the equivalent of what S&W offered to the U.S. military and civilian markets of the time.

Roy Jinks says that by 1921 (pg. 205 of the "History")S&W had used up it's supply of parts for the U.S. military version and was useing only civilian parts. And that this was what was used for the Brazilian contract. But folks have reported seeing GI marked parts on Brazilians. It makes sense that they are on later Brazilians from the 48 order which may have incorporated guns produced for WWII. This is what S&W was doing for the civilian guns it sold commercially at the time, useing parts produced for WWII. A check of the serial number may tell you. Or a letter from Jinks.

At any rate the steel used spanned a time from the 30's to the mid to late 40s and was as good as what was available to anyone at the time. The M1917 was dropped from production in 1949.

tipoc
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:11 AM
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I've got a 1937 Brazilian SN 164XXX that has the rounded topstrap, it looks like SCSW is off by at least 5,000 on the serial numbers.

My gun also has smooth grips like a 1917, without the medallion. The right grip has the SN stamped in it in 2 rows, while my 1917 has the sn marked in pencil.

The frame has the eagle head stamp with "S2" under it. The Cylinder has the Eagle Head stamp with "S24" under it. The barrel has the Eagle Head Stamp with "S2" under it.

The original finish appears to be similar to that of my 1917. I can take pics and post if anyone is interested.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:55 AM
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Here some of the stamping used on the 1917 aka.Brazilian that went south of the border.
Jim







[img] http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/jacamo/DSCN7237.jpg?t=1174070990[/img]

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Old 03-16-2007, 12:02 PM
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Buckwheat01, that is some awsome photo work in your pictures. Great close up work.

44and45
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Old 03-16-2007, 12:42 PM
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Buckwheat - They are the same stamps on my gun. Am I correct in calling them Eagle Heads?
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Old 03-16-2007, 12:57 PM
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I have a Brazillian,that I bought through Navy Arms(and so marked on inside of front grip strap) in 1989 that is serial# 111380. Gun was in ""extra fine" condition,came with medallion grips(#,but not to this gun). Rounded."old style" rear sight.

1937 Brazillian side plate,which is also # to gun,as are all the other parts. Assembly # 85768 on frame & yoke are identical. There is also the small Eagle with S2 under it,on the frame under the barrel,but alongside there is b 4 0 3 4 in larger numerals,and this number also appears on crane.
An R 43 is right alongside the "eagle" in the crane recess in frame.

So,it appears that this was one of the frames that S&W got back from the Govt. circa 1920,or a completed gun that had stayed in Springfield for close to 20 years.

S&W must have really had to "scramble" to fill that 1937 order for Brazil,and I think any suitable N frame,1917 parts etc. was used.

Bud
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:09 PM
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clang444
yes you are correct
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:38 PM
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The small eagles head marks are U.S. Army Inspectors of Ordnance stamps. There were two different types, similiar in appearence. They had an S or E prefix and than the inspectors number, if I remember right, a seperate number for each inspector.

The type stamp on Buckwheat's gun was used from May of 1918 to Apr. of 1919 or thereabouts.

In his "History" while Jinks says that the firm had depleted it's supply of wartime products by the 1920's on the next page he says that 10,868 frames were on hand, many already serial numbered from 1930s production. So something is off somewheres.

Acording to my letter from Jinks on my own 37 it was part of the first shipment to Brazil. It is straight up and down a Brazilian. No U.S. stamps on it anywheres. It's below, next to a 1917, it's grips were worked over by a Brazilian GI.



That U.S. marked frames and barrels were used on the Brazilian order is undeniable.

Many folks never bother lettering their Brazilians as they "have no collector" interest. I think they should. In which order to Brazil was the gun shipped? Early or late? If some frames were used for the orders which had already been serial numbered than the sequence for those shipped to Brazil is out of order.

Did Brazil request the flat top sights? Or were these on the civilian models and when did they show up?

Did S&W get some 1917s back from the U.S. Army to fill the Brazilian order or were they inspected but never sent? Interesting questions.

tipoc
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Old 03-16-2007, 04:19 PM
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Another question...my Brazilian has a serrated trigger, the 1917 a smooth. Variations?

tipoc
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Old 03-16-2007, 07:21 PM
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So was Buckwheat's gun above (and my simarly marked 1937) actually produced during WWI, or was just the frames, barrels and cylinders produced and they sat around in parts bins for almost 20 years?
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:02 PM
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Grettings all,
I think some misconceptions could be formed from reading this thread, and once they are repeated a couple of times, they will become "fact". You know how that goes- "I saw it on the S&W forum, so it must be right".

So.......
Let's establish some basic facts-

First, NO 1917's were produced for WW II. The factory was too busy with K-frame 38's for the Brits and the U.S. to produce any N-frames. The military did not need 1917's- they had plenty. They even sent some to the Battle of Britain. ALL the parts with Springfield Eagle head inspection marks were made during WW I. The government had NATIONALIZED the factory- SEIZED control of it, and declared it a branch of Springfield Armory. I know one or two guns might have gotten out during WW II, but I am saying there was NO general production of 1917's during WW II.
And NO, S&W did NOT get any 1917's back from the Army to fill the order.

FLAT-Top frames- Engineering Order from Neal & Jinks: "October 17, 1927: Oredr to square top strap and front sight of 44 Hand Ejector revolvers per H. Wesson"
From factory advertising brochures and catalogs, we know that ALL K and N frames soon had the "new, improved sights" for the fixed sight guns. OK, so any 1917 made for COMMERCIAL sale after 1927 or so has the flat top frame. Now, it gets vague- did S&W fill the 1938 order with all "commercial type" guns, or a mixture of commercials and military types built on WW I frames. I know many commercials, Brazilian and regular, have WW I barrels and cylinders, because they have the eagle heads. OR, did they only supply the military types for the 1946 order?

Grooved Triggers- another Engineering Order, dated March 18, 1929. It made all K and N frame triggers grooved.

The book says 1917 parts were exhausted by Jan, 1921, or NOT! The book was written 30 years ago, and Roy has found much more data since then. MAYBEthat should read they had sold all the FINISHED guns left over by 1921. I know that 44 HE 2nd models were STILL being built on 1917 frames into the late 20's. You can see one on GunBroker Auction # 67875749 - I have held that 44-2nd, and it has the eagle head in the crane cut, and was shipped in Sept, 1926.

Serial numbers- Who Knows? Bud said he has #111380 in his post. I have #150571. These fall within the range of numbers built for the Army during WW I. So, we can assume that perhaps some serial # blocks got skipped, or some frames got numbered during WW I, but never built. Many frames had to be built and not numbered, later to be used for 44-2nd's. Either that, or the number was removed, and replaced with a number in the 44 HE series.

The 1917 Brazilians will one day be researched and understood much better. It is an interesting gun, and actually a significant contract in company history.

Now, a gentle chide- Buy the books, and read them, and understand there may be errors, omissions, and LATER data. But READ them. If you hang around this column, <span class="ev_code_RED">you NEED Neal & Jinks</span>. Roy's History and SCSW#3 are NOT enough. I would pay $150 for the Engineering Changes alone if I did not have them in Neal & Jinks.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:18 PM
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Thanks Lee. I have Neal and Jinks and will take a closer look at it. One value of this forum is to clear up misconceptions. I have no problem with mine being cleared up nor with my questions being answered or being pointed in the right direction for sources. That's why I come here.

The Brazilians have not been properly researched. By many S&W afficionados, for many years they have been classed as a "South of the Border" order and thus of less or little interest. Perhaps evan poor quality guns. Neither is true.

It is true that there is a lot of variety in these guns and some unanswered questions.

Clearly a number of frames, barrels, etc from the WWI 1917 were available to S&W for the first part of the Brazilian order. If Jinks is right there were at least two other shipments to Brazil, one as late as 48.

tipoc

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Old 03-17-2007, 03:05 PM
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A lot of good information in this thread. It still does not begin to scratch the surface of all the possible things that went on with the brazilian orders. Quite a few variations of the brazilian model
tipoc raised some interesting questions
Jim
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:02 PM
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While I'm waiting to get my 1937, does anyone here know what the holsters and accessories go with it? Thanks, Kevin
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:10 AM
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Too bad I have to tell you that a braz rig is nearly impossible to put together being the only source the brazilian widows of carioca veterans. In more than one year of daily hunting I was able, thank to a couple of brazilian friends of mine, to find a post WWII holster made for the second shipping of guns from the USA in 1946, an original WWII pistol belt and a, possibly post WWII, first aid pouch. I'm living in Italy but here you cannot find a single piece of braz equipment left back.
If it may interest, brazilians never adopted a revolver ammo pouch but they did put rounds in compass pouches. You can't believe it, but after serious research and veterans memories, it seems brazilians never had half moon clips but auto rim rounds. There is an empty crate of autorim in a braz museum.


Shot at 2007-07-16
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:40 PM
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artu44, very nice collection. Thanks for sharing it with us.
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Old 07-21-2007, 01:54 PM
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My Brazilian No. 16359x is Eagle S34 stamped on the barrel flat and Eagle S2 on the crane flat. The yoke and cylinder are unstamped. The piece is all numbered matching. Apparently this one was put together of surplus parts.
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Old 07-22-2007, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
only wish I'd grabbed a few 1937's when the first became available for $250
i found one so they are still around. not much blue left but a great shooter
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:48 PM
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My Brazilian is a refinished shooter, SN 203904 on butt, cylinder and bottom of barrel; assembly number 37465 on crane and frame; grooved trigger; small S&W logo on left side, Brazilian shield on the right; NA Ridgefield, NJ stamped on frame under stocks; some pitting under stocks, covered by refinish; no numbers on stocks; still some signs of pitting on right side panel; hammer checkered. Couldn't find any other markings, if there were any they may have been lost in refinish. Bright & shiny bore. Rounded top.

Strictly a shooter, not original, but i'm happy to be the current owner. I hope everyone else that has one of these enjoys shooting it as much as i do mine.

rayb
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Old 08-08-2007, 06:59 AM
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Just bought my (first ?) Brazilian yesterday, $450.
Commercial blue, about 85%, no military marks other than the Brazilian crest on the side-plate. SN is 142923, has swivel and lanyard loop, all #s match, has import mark under bbl, TA CO SA CA. Has grooved trigger.
Bore is excellent, gun is very tight, action very smooth.
Smooth grips were modified by grooving with a gouge, and are bad, but I have a pair old yellowing pearls on it right now and it looks great.
Wear of blue is holster wear, with slight rust pitting on the grip.

I have wanted one of these for about 15 years,
asked about a 1937 in a shop yesterday, was told, "yeah, we have one in the back just came in...". He said $450, and I jumped on it.

Can't wait to shoot it.
This gun is probably 70 years old and is still tight as a new revolver...Smith makes a great six shooter.
My birthday (60) is Thursday, so this became part of my gift to myself along with a 1907 Savage .32 pistol with steel grips.

Thanks for all the great posts on these guns here...to actually know what I have in hand adds a lot to the pleasure of owning this piece.

But you all know that....
Mark
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