OK, I have a question...

Assuming that a gun in this condition had no significant historical value, how much would you give for it...AS IS?

Personally, I couldn't stand to look at it for very long, AS IS, and would probably give a few hundred bucks just because it was an RM.

Some more experienced (than mine) opinions please (my oldest Smith is a late-40's K-22)...

TIA.

Gordy

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'Merica!

Handejector:

There are infact a few true restorers that still do oven bluing like the S&W carbonia process and Colt heat blue. They also know how to properly polish a gun and even have the correct roll marks for the addresses etc. They can restore a gun to factory perfection, HOWEVER, like all bluing they can not duplicate the aged finish. I disagree with you on your original point, but have to contend that it is impossible to duplicate the aging that bluing takes on after 130, 100, 75, 50 or even 25 years of proper storage. Most collectors will see the slight variance in color tone when looking at a NIB original vs. a 100% correct restoration. The same goes for case colors, they loose their vibrance over the decades and take on a smokey haze that I have yet to see duplicated. The best that can be hoped for is a restored gun to age in the up coming decades to look more original. With regard to the RM at hand, it is abused and would benefit from a restoration and BTW, there are some restorers that do not mark their work. Parts replacement, while logical, still makes the piece not 100% original and thus collectors will value it less. Just my 2 cents.

Why don't they just start making guns, and quit refinishing the old ones? Seriously- put some Reg Mags back on the market, with their own logo, of course. It might make sense for people that have to have a "pretty as new" gun.

Which point? Not sure I remember the "original" one after so many "restorations".

I understand that. I mean they ALL SHOULD mark their work. I know people that spot Tommy Haas Single Actions, but many collectors can't. Virtually none of the younger guys coming along will be able to, and that is WRONG. Eventually, down through time, SA collectors will probably just come to believe the guns varied that much in the dimensions of the finished parts, or, more likely, a collector of high-dollar high-condition SA's will have to carry a BAG FULL of gauges to check a gun out.

I think not, at least on small internal parts. I think a collector had rather have a gun that worked, rather than one with a broken mainspring or a busted hammer that won't cock. Chances are, we won't know if a spring or hammer has been replaced with the proper vintage part, and who cares anyway? Of course, a barrel or cyl, or even grips HURTS.

To sum up, ALL refinished guns are not "Restored", but ALL "Restored" guns are still REFINISHED. It AIN'T what S&W shipped, and that is ALL that interests me- what S&W shipped. Collect guns in varied colors of teflon if you so desire- it's a free country.

Gordy,
I would probably just pass, and not make an offer. There are many better guns out there to chase........

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Heck, Mark, that's what I thought SCSW was. Where is this "real money" of which you speak?

Thanks to Bob for his kind words - I'm certainly honored to be grouped with Lee any day.

This has been a very interesting thread to me, and I really appreciate the insightful postings of Mike and all the others who have contributed.

And, despite my little ditty, and never one to recognize that the horse is actually deceased before wielding the crop, I would like to clarify that my personal preference against restoration does not mean that I necessarily mind older refinishes. My main dislike is for modern rework of older guns.

With apologies to those who have already seen the following in the SWCA forum, I'm going to post below a list of ...

"WHAT I LIKE & DISLIKE IN A GUN".

Please realize that this is offered only as my own personal preferences, and with no intention that others "should" share it. Some of my dislikes may be your likes, and vice versa, and more power to you.

It may be interesting as one guy's take on some of the factors that different collectors take into consideration:
**************************************

DESIRABLE FACTORS (in order from most desirable to less-so)

* Documented attribution to a specific individual and usage.
- More famous individual = more desirable.
- More famous usage = more desirable.
- Quality of documentation is extremely important.

* Prototype, "first of", "last of", etc.
- The first or last gun of a model; a factory prototype, etc.

* Documented ownership by a specific individual.
- Same sub-qualifiers apply as to fame of owner & quality of documentation. This would be a gun that was known to have been owned by a specific individual, but his exact usage of the gun, if any, is unknown.

* Rarity of model.

* Quality period of use engraving.
- I do appreciate factory engraving, but wonderful full coverage by a good non-factory engraver is more appealing to me than lesser coverage or quality from the factory. Best is great coverage & artistry from the factory.

* Rarity of variation. (unusual original combinations of barrel length, caliber, finish, markings, etc.)

* General historical attribution.
- Usually this will be specific known military or police usage.

* Highly expert specialized period of use modifications.
- Roper grips. Pope barrels. K-chuks. Etc.

* Colorful or less expert or "folk art" period of use engraving or other decoration.
- I like odd personal decoration that a long ago owner has applied, even if the artistic quality may not be high.

* Oddball period of use modifications.
- Someone went to the trouble to mount a single shot .22 barrel on top of the .44 barrel on a Model 3? Kewl!

* Original unaltered condition.
- While I like this, it is the least important of the "desirable" factors to my taste.


NEUTRAL FACTORS – The following don't really matter much to me. Listed in order from "kind cool" to "kinda uncool":

* Mechanical repair to make a gun functional without replacing major components.

* Period of use factory refinish or rework.

* Period-of-use non-factory refinish or modification (cut barrel, changed sights or grips, etc.)

* Mixed numbers


NEGATIVE FACTORS - Listed in order from "ick" to "abomination".

* Mechanical repair which disposes of or substantially visibly alters a major component.

* Recent factory refinish on older gun.

* Recent professional refinish or alteration on older gun.
- i.e., modification or refinish not intended to appear as original factory.

* Professional restoration on older gun.
- An attempt to make the gun look as it originally came from the factory.

* Buff & bumper-shop refinish.

* Alterations intended to deceive the observer as to the history or original configuration of the gun (i.e. fraud).

Thats my list. YMMV. - Jim

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Jim Supica

All:

I have very much enjoyed the discussion that TJ's RM has elicited. It has made me evaluate my own likes, dislikes, inclinations, and natural tendencies. I have decided that like all aspects of my life, my thoughts on this topic have evolved, and will continue to evolve with the acquisition of more wisdom, more age, more (or less) wealth, or if find something that I "want" or "like" and I need to adjust my thoughts to justify the acquisition.

As I have read the posts here and on the SWCA Forum, it seems to me that there are three groups of collectors/accumulators/shooters/firearm enthusiasts when it comes to this issue: Group 1) those who would restore, Group 2) those who are opposed to any restoration and Group 3) those who are somewhere in between.

I would classify those in Group 1 (where I currently reside on this issue) as "fixers." They are naturally drawn to broken things, and people and want to make them better, cleaner, nicer, smarter, etc. than they were when they acquired or came into contact with them. They look at the TJ RM and think "I would love to own that neglected piece of history and turn it into the showpiece of my collection". They have these thoughts, even though they know that such a restoration will most likely not increase the collectibility of the item. These are the same people that purchase neglected grips/stocks and re-checker and refinish them. They find joy and satisfaction in mowing their own lawn, fixing their own cars, volunteering at homeless shelters, counseling the mentally ill, and doing things with their hands.

Group 2 (which I find myself drawn to, but I can't seem to break free of the "fixer" core of my nature), is comprised of individuals that have at their core the noble objective of safeguarding the purity of our collecting/accumulating/shooting hobby. I liken them to the environmentally conscious individuals who dedicate their life to preserving the wilderness nature our National Forests - fighting for legislation to keep the motorized vehicles, ski lifts and masses of humanity out of the pure and untouched wilderness so that it can be preserved for future generations just the way that God intended it to be.

Group 3 is everyone else, and I would imagine that members of both Group 1 and Group 2 occasionally jump in and out of Group 3 to suit their needs, wants and desires at any given stage in life.

What I wholeheartedly agree with is that if a gun is restored, the artist should take credit for, and mark his work. I observe the restoration skills of Doug Turnbull and would be proud to present any firearm that he restored as a "Doug Turnbull Restoration." The same could be said for several other restorers that have been mentioned. This may impact the value, but I think in time the work of such restoration artists will be seen for what it is - beauty in function and the artisans themselves will be honored creators of one-of-a-kind firearms that were custom "re-created", "refreshed" or "restored" for the current owner. This strikes me in the same vane as having Wayne D'Angelo master engrave a signature piece for your collection.

With that said, I am grateful for the revolvers that bring us together on this forum. Thanks for putting up with my rambling thoughts and observations, and may you find joy and happiness in whatever "Group" you find yourself in

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

RK, Jim, and others

The answer to any question is always " Yes, No, and Maybe ". In a somewhat meaningless
way, that sums up this thread.

The reality of any gun is who owns it, and what they want out of it. After all is
said and done, either the gun will be refinished/restored, or it will not. If we
accept that this RM has a lot of abuse and neglect , not related to its LE duty,
then sooner or later, it will be refinished/restored, if not by the present owner,
then by a future owner. I think it is inevitable.

One of the more enjoyable commets, on this thread, was a question about having
cosmetic sugery for a wife of 20 or more years, or somthing like that. I laughed
to myself - I'm sure that marriages have broken up for related reasons !

Later, Mike Priwer

Mike: My Mom who is 67 had some facial cosmetic surgery done and my Dad (71) seems to be smiling a little more these days. She was not refinished, merely restored! Seriously, I think it made her happier too and that is what is important. Likewise if the gun looks like a dog with no historical pedigree, if it is restored properly, and I too agree someday it will, then it will be more desireable to the right person.

It all boils down to money. That gun is a rusty old piece of **** to me... but it's still worth something because its an RM. If some guy thinks it's cool that it has suicide/homicide blood stains all over it, fine...let him shell out the money and take it. Me personally, I like things that are beautiful and functional. Whether its an old RM, pre-series, or a newer Colt Python, I want a gun that looks and functions good. If I had that gun I would sell it to someone who truly appreciates old worn out rusty things, and I wouldn't care what they did with it. I'm glad there are people who like guns like that, but I'm not one of them.

I'm not sure if gun collectors and/or dealers are like furniture dealers but as an antique dealer who occasionally sells furniture to other dealers the first thing I hear is {Don't clean it, don't refinish it. etc." Then they attempt to buy it at a very reduced price because of the "issues" Nine times out of ten the next time I see it, it's setting on the showroom floor refinished and/or worked on. As Shakespeare said, "They doth protest too much." All that being said, If it was mine in that condition and I wanted to keep it forever, I would have it redone by someone who knew his business. Otherwise, let the next guy mess with it.

Has it been lettered? Give the full accounting. To much speculation as to it's history and condition unless we get some better pictures and history as promised.

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... fortunate son...

I've been following this since it started and can see both sides. I have a M1 Garand that when I ordered from CMP was going to restore, but when it arrived I found by the SN it went to the USMC at Parris Island in January of 1944. It has earned it's dings and scrapes and wear. By it in my gun cabinet is a 98k Mauser seized in a meth lab several years ago, rough enough that many feel I should refinish, but all I have done is firelap the bore trying to get it to shoot well. I also just put a LOT of time and effort into getting a 1905 .38 parts gun back into service. It required a new cylinder, ejector, etc. to turn out to be a great shooter [sitting in the desk right now, loaded]. I am in the process of stripping a 27-2 of Duracoat to bring it back to it's polished blue appearance,even though I was told again today, that almost all the blue underneath is worn off. There are as many opinions as individuals and I for one would like to know more of the history of this fine gun. Only then can I make my decision as to what my opinion will be on it. If it is due to neglect, I would side with giving it the TLC I think it deserves, and refinish. If it acquired that abuse through battle scars, clean it as well as possible. If through a suicide, I really don't know, but I would probably decide to refinish to give it some dignity back.

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Always bet on stupidity.

...in the meantime, maybe we could turn down the lights on TJ's RM a little??? Great thread. Thanks, Jerry

I was hopeful that TJ would email some more photos to post. I have not received any yet. I do not believe that it has been lettered.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

+1 on restoring it. Think of it this way, if you purchased a vintage Rolls Royce that was rusted, with flat tires and torn leather on the seats, but runs, would you really feel good about driving it around so you could be seen in it? I think you would probably try to get it restored.

By the way, the gun has been lettered. For all of you S&WCA members, there is a
registered magnum file that has this gun in it. All of the relevant information is in
that file.

The gun appears to be correct - except for the finish !

There would be no additional information in a letter , as to what the Sheriff did with the gun.

Later, Mike Priwer

Boy this has been a great thread, but there is one salient piece of data that is missing. How much does TJ currently have in the gun?

I don't expect TJ to provide an answer, because I sure wouldn't tell you how much I paid either, but what is the value of the gun right now?

If you were in the Leave It As It Is Camp - what would you pay for a gun like this?

If you were on the Refinish side, - what would you pay for this gun? How much would you put into the refinish or restoration and how much would the gun be worth after refinishing?

Which would increase in value faster - the gun as is or with a good refinish/restoration?

If it's hard to find a qualified refinisher/restorer now - what's it going to be like 30 years from now?

My apologies if taking this to the monetary level seems crass, but what better way is there to make this decision?

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

Clang444: That is a good way to look at this. If the value is rather low because of its poor condition from neglect, then a proper restoration may not make it as desireable as a 100% NIB gun or even one with 60% original finish with no pits and rust, just honest holster wear, it still should have more desirablity than a similar gun in poor shape. Go price some Turnbull restored guns and you will see I ain't blow'n smoke!

It extremely hard to set a price without more details and pictures but I'll throw out some numbers just for grins. Lets say the gun functions O.K. is worth 900 bucks "as is" with rusting and slightly pitted barrel. Another 800 bucks for a O.K. restoration and rebluing, and $200 to restore and refinish the grips. The refinished gun would look pretty good but far from perfect because of extensive polishing to rejuvenate the finish. It would not be "jaw dropping" beautiful, but it would be a nice gun to shoot and show off and would recoup that amount invested someday not too far away. A nice original RM for a little more money would be worth more money faster and would keep appreciating in value MUCH faster! If the gun was left "as is" it will still appreciate, and probably at a faster rate than the refinished gun.

I don't agree with this notion. Rather, I would think that, in its present condition, its
going to be a hard gun to sell/resell, particularly over time at a higher and higher price.
Certainly someone will want it, but I think its market is going to be more limited, in its
present condition, than if it were refinished.

Consider the KCPD guns. Most have been refinished at least once, perhaps twice, and yet
they sell very well. Some of them are even in relatively poor condition, interenally and
externally, but generally they are presentable. That is the big issue with the gun in this
discussion - it just isn't very presentable, and that will affect how saleable it really is.

Later, Mike Priwer

What is harsh in the world of used firearms is that condition is extremely important in their perceived worth. I own a very nicely refinished Mauser "Bolo" C96. The only reason I could afford it was that it had been refinished. My WW1 Luger is original and worth substantially more because it is in good shape and will appreciate accordingly. A great gun with history like TJ's is caught in the gap of being a desirable type, but a poor condition piece. I like the RR analogy earlier as being a good example.

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Always bet on stupidity.

Deacon,
Please explain the "RR analogy". I'm too lazy to look back thru 5 pages for it. I don't recall that one.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Deacon, If I may,
R and R is the Rolls Royce analogy. If you have a beat up Rolls, then you should restore it back to pristine condition. As posted by the Virginian about 6 posts up.

this is compared to my analogy of a wife after 20 years. you love them for their intrinsic values. don't need to have them go for cosmetic surgery just because they gained a few pounds or sag here or there.

granted, this revolver has been through the ringer. but i still wouldn't change it.

Duhhh.....Thanks! I remember now. My memory span isn't even as long as my........................ what were we talkin' about?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

with this event http://www.barrett-jackson.com/
around the corner, i am not sure the RR analogy works. every year the same line is repeated on the cars, "an older restoration", or "a budget restoration" the condition of these autos is every thing and a recent resoration on top of an older restoration with them is a good thing. but, it is also stated often that the sale price of some of the cars does not meet the cost of the restoration. the only ones that do very well seem to be hemi powered 'cudas that are "lettered" that way.

This has been a very interesting thread, and I have enjoyed reading the different points of view. Hopefully we will hear more about the ultimate fate of the gun in question!

Sorry It took so long for me to get on here and reply to you all. Yes this is my RM- I'm going to get some more pictures on here soon.
Gun has been lettered by Roy- Not much info other than being shipped 2-16-39 to Sheriff A.C. Ammen- shipped to him at the court house in Decatur IL., 3.5 inch barrel, Mcgivern gold bead front sight.
RM is all original- stocks numbered to gun- Mechanically fine- bore decent, chambers ok- nothing that can't be soaked off.
I have decided soak it in solvent for a while and try to get all the active rust off. Lovingly scrub with brass wool and see what it looks like.
I have VERY LITTLE in this gun- purchased from a young guy who needed money- not sure where he got it from- didn't ask, but the gun apparently never left Macon CO IL- till I bought it and moved in 30 miles away.
Due to the provenance and my proximity to Macon Co- I have no intention to sell it. I think I will clean it up as good as possible and merge it with the other's in the safe.
Thanks for everyone's input- I will send more pictures- before and after the cleaning.
Terry Jones

Terry, congratulations on owning a great model of S&W with local history, and thanks for being so good natured with all of our opinions!

You've obviously raised a topic of great interest to your fellow collectors, and we've had a wonderful time with it! -- Jim

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Jim Supica

Mr. Jones,
I agree with Mr. Supica, congratulations! Thanks for sharing with us. It's been a joy reading all the replies.

Bob

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"Onward thru the Fog"

Terry,

Great acquisition. Since you live so close to where the gun was shipped, I'd spend some time researching Sheriff Ammen's career. You might find some very interesting items to include with his gun. Although our opinions seemed to range over the spectrum on the restoration issue, the one thing that we all seem to agree upon is the historical significance of an old lawman's gun. You might get lucky and find some folks who are still around that remember him.

Bob

New photos added 11/29/07 - see page 1. BTW, TJ indicated that he is not interested in selling the RM.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I'm for refinishing it on the grounds SaxonPig iniitially posted.

Unless that soaking really works some magic, that it.

Terry, welcome to the place and good luck on the rust control/removal. If you ever head downstate, email me and we can hit some good shops down here!

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Always bet on stupidity.

Terry - Are you out there??? - We would love to know if you have done anything with this interesting gun???

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Wow, back from the dead agter 6.5years. Yeah, I want to see some current pics as well . Please

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

An excellent essay on the aspects of collecting. EDUCATION!

I didn't think Lee used so many words, but this topic sure drew him out.

This thread gave me a lot to consider about the collection I inherited and the one I have accumulated myself. There is an old Colt Police Positive in the inherited group, that was (as best I can tell) refinished quite professionally over fifty years ago, it was a display item since my childhood, due to its provenance.

For me, a gun is more than an implement for throwing lead, that's why I'm here (small talk about wars, cigars, cars and bars notwithstanding).

If it weren't for who owned it, who used it and why, I'd be at a glocktalk site comparing kydex, feed ramps and mag releases.

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Halfway and one more step

And "beauty is only a light switch away?"

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Halfway and one more step

What a beauty. I have a Triple Lock I got 40yrs ago that looked the same. I got it operational after a period. It still sits on my desk, loaded.
It looks great next to my SAA BP with the hacked off barrel and no site.
No opinion, but you will be from this time on, known as the guy with the old RM.

It's deja vu all over again...

Sebago Son- No, I don't worship diplomas. Mine or any other's. They are mere symbols. It's the accomplishment that matters. The experience and acquisition of knowledge. The diploma is just paper.

To the original question, we need to decide two matters. 1. What is the purpose of the revolver? If it is nothing other than a collectible object, then do nothing. Display it as is. If it is a firearm, then some sort of repair would be in order.

But that brings us to issue #2. Can it be repaired? And at what cost? If a master smith demands 3K to make it good, is that a wise investment? How much can we spend? Every man will have a different response to that.

As for me, I would not have bought that gun at any price.

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No life story has happy end.

I have a number of marked, scratched or battered S&Ws. A 27-2 with someones SS#, a 38-44 w/ blood mark, a 38 no dash with very tacky nickle, these are just fine shooting though appearance challenged, and that's nowhere near all of them.. Good looks don't mean poor performance. My Parker double even suffered from some previous owner scrubbing the " brown stuff off it", but it's murder on bobwhite.

Guess I'm just not educated enough...
I'll try to do better, honest.

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Halfway and one more step