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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 05-10-2008, 10:19 PM
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Would any of you know where i can get some 38/200 British ammo. I am putting a WW2 handgun display together and i have 2 British tanker holsters For my Victory and Webley revolvers that have ammo loops on them.If i can find some 38/200 ammo i am going to make up some dummy rounds to put in the loops.I have looked in Shotgun news and midway with no luck. Thanks for any info. papabyrd
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Old 05-10-2008, 10:19 PM
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Would any of you know where i can get some 38/200 British ammo. I am putting a WW2 handgun display together and i have 2 British tanker holsters For my Victory and Webley revolvers that have ammo loops on them.If i can find some 38/200 ammo i am going to make up some dummy rounds to put in the loops.I have looked in Shotgun news and midway with no luck. Thanks for any info. papabyrd
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Old 05-10-2008, 11:25 PM
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I have a small quantity of this ammo, I believe it South African, and may be a bit more 'modern' than you want, but how many rounds do you need?



This is the real thing, but I only have this picture of it:
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:10 AM
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You might contact Sullivan's Classic Arms in Cumming, GA or Brocks Surplus (www.brocksguns.com) near Watkinsville, GA.
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Old 05-11-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
ButchG17
Thanks for the info.ButchG17 if you would like to sell a box 12 rounds is all i need as the holsters has 6 loops each. E-mail me what you want for it and i will send you a momey order or pay-pal you the momey. my e-mail address is
[email protected] . thanks again
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:51 AM
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Butch

Your ammo is not South African.

CIS is Charter Industries Ltd, Singapore in 1973 (GC is a date code using the numbers of the letters in the alphabet). Source: Revolvers of the British Services by Chamberlain and Taylerson.

Peter (in South Africa)
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:27 AM
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Here's a pic of a couple boxes I have, the open box on the left is Austrailian and I think the others are Canadian. There are similar photos in Charlie Pate's book (U.S. Handguns of WWII).



Sorry I don't have any extras to spare, but I'll keep my eye out for you.

I recently got a box of South Africa .380 from an ammo collector who used to live in South Africa. I haven't had a chance to photo it yet, but the headstamp is marked:

P.M.P. 69
.380 MK 2Z

Box is marked:
12 CARTRIDGES REVOLVER .380" NK 2 Z
PATRONE REWOLWER .380" MK 2 Z

Peter, I think you might know the fellow that gave me the ammo.. his name is Paul Murphy.
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by papabyrd:
If i can find some 38/200 ammo i am going to make up some dummy rounds to put in the loops.
Simple solution is to shorten some 38 Special cases and use them. No one will know unless they look carefully! Peter
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:07 AM
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I know that this is a dunb question, but as a shooter, I have been shooting .38 S&W in my British Victory. Is the .38S&W the same round as the 38/200? And is it safe to shoot them in a Victory?
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by delta-419:
I know that this is a dunb question, but as a shooter, I have been shooting .38 S&W in my British Victory. Is the .38S&W the same round as the 38/200? And is it safe to shoot them in a Victory?
Yes and Yes.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PJGP:
Butch

Your ammo is not South African.

CIS is Charter Industries Ltd, Singapore in 1973 (GC is a date code using the numbers of the letters in the alphabet). Source: Revolvers of the British Services by Chamberlain and Taylerson.

Peter (in South Africa)
Thank you Peter! Great info!

Can you do the same for this one?
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Old 05-14-2008, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ButchG17:
Can you do the same for this one?
No! This headstamp is not shown in the book, but I guess that it is Fabrique Nationale.

Peter
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PJGP:
Quote:
Originally posted by ButchG17:
Can you do the same for this one?
No! This headstamp is not shown in the book, but I guess that it is Fabrique Nationale.

Peter
Bummer.....Fabrique Nationale is what I rather expected. Strange they would leave FN out if indeed it is made by FN.

Thanks anyway!
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:33 PM
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This is a great site for determining headstamps.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/heads...des_bottom.htm
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Old 05-14-2008, 03:59 PM
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That's FM on the headstamp; not FN. But I doubt if it's Fabrica Militar in Argentina.

PMP is Pretoria Metal Pressings in South Africa, I believe?

Note the subtle variations in bullet shapes.

T-Star
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:09 AM
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Hi ButchG17,

I have several containers of the same cartridges that you show in your photo. They are packed 30 rounds in clear plastic and have a a white plastic tape outside the clear plastic that is marked "FN". The tape also has "OXYLESS NON MERCURIC" and "30 CART .38 ORDIN, BALL" on the tape. Head stamp markings are the same as your cartridge.



Quote:
Originally posted by ButchG17:
Quote:
Originally posted by PJGP:
Butch

Your ammo is not South African.

CIS is Charter Industries Ltd, Singapore in 1973 (GC is a date code using the numbers of the letters in the alphabet). Source: Revolvers of the British Services by Chamberlain and Taylerson.

Peter (in South Africa)
Thank you Peter! Great info!

Can you do the same for this one?
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Star:
PMP is Pretoria Metal Pressings in South Africa, I believe?
Note the subtle variations in bullet shapes.
T-Star
Sorry about the delay in responding T-Star. Yes, PMP is Pretoria Metal Pressings. Ammunition was first made in South Africa at the start of WW II. The SA Mint (as in money)set up two factories for 303" rifle ammo (the Mint because they were experts in metal pressing). By mid 1943 over 600 Million rounds had been produced and throughout the war SA was a major supplier of 303"; headstamp was "U".

Revolver ammo (380 Mk 2Z) first produced in 1959 with headstamp "U"; changed to "S A M" in 1961. Around 1965 ammo manufacture was separated from Mint and new "company" (Govt owned)called PMP established. Headstamp changed to PMP and then in 1973 to "A" followed by last two digits of year, eg "A 73".

In 1969 380 bullet was changed to 165 Gr and then in 1971 to 145 Gr with a 9 mm Para type profile. In 1973 designation was changed to a South African metric special 9,65x19,5R and headstamp is "A 73(etc) 9.65 R1 M1". A metric name for the 303" was also invented!

I will post pictures of two rounds once I find out again how to!

Peter
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:19 AM
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The 002 picture is of the S A M round with 178 Gr bullet and the 145 Gr bullet from the A 79 round. The 003 picture shows the two headstamps.

Peter
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Old 05-24-2008, 11:00 AM
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Greetings All:

This has been an interesting discourse on the .38-200 military ammunition. Peter's illumination of the subject as it pertains to the South African production of .38-200 has been especially noteworthy.

Since there has been no box of the SA .38-200 ammo shown I thought that I would post a couple of pics so that others can identify it in the future. In my experience this SA ammo is very tough to locate in the USA.

Pic one shows the front of the 12 round cartridge box, with the information in English. The side of the box says "P.M.P. 811" which indicates Pretoria Metal Pressings. Since the box shows the older designation of .380" MK 2Z, I gather that this ammo was produced between 1965 and 1973, based on Peter's comments.



Pic 2 shows the reverse side of the box. I presume that the language used there is Afrikaans. Peter, feel free to correct me on that.



I don't know what the headstamp is on these cartridges as I did not want to open the sealed box.

I will post a couple more examples of .38-200 military ammunition below.

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Charlie Flick
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Old 05-24-2008, 11:12 AM
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The next example of military .38-200 ammunition is WW2 production manufactured by Dominion Cartridge Co., Ltd. of Quebec, Canada. This is also a 12 round box. Once again I don't know what the headstamp says as the box was sealed.

One wonders why that size/number of rounds was chosen. Two cylinder loads. Perhaps that was the limit of how many rounds could be easily carried in the P'37 ammunition pouch on the pistol belt.

This ammo was also very difficult for me to locate. This box came from my friend and fellow SWCA'er Dave Carroll.

Charlie Flick

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Old 05-24-2008, 11:21 AM
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The last example I will post today is also Canadian, and was issued to a Royal Canadian Air Force specification. This is a 50-round box. It, too, was manufactured by Dominion Cartridge Co. The headstamp on these cartridges is DC 55 .380. The box is marked on the side "Lot No. 4 Date 2/56".

Regards,
Charlie Flick

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Old 05-24-2008, 12:36 PM
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Neat stuff, it gives me something else to look for at gunshows now.
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:39 PM
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This thread is pretty cool, I have learned more than I knew, and now I have something else to scrounge for at gunshows thanks
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:43 PM
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Charlie here's the crate the South African ammo came in. I bought this in the mid 80's. Century imported thousands of rounds of it. A gun shop I frequented then had stacks of it. I shot it all But did manage to keep one of the crates.


Measurements are 8x6 inches.



With that here are my No 2 Mk I Enfield's. Neither converted to DA. Gun on left is RAF marked right below the cylinder. Gun on right is unit marked on butt SOU 2. RAF gun is 1934. Gun on right 1935. Notice difference in grips. Any ideas on the SOU marking? Could be SOJ.
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Old 05-24-2008, 01:17 PM
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Hey Bruce:

Nice to hear from you. Thanks for posting the SA ammo crate pics, and for identifying the source. It is interesting that Century was able to get this stuff into the USA as for many years there was a trade embargo on SA goods because of apartheid.

Sorry to say I can not decipher the butt markings on your handsome Enfield. However, I bet that the guys on the British Gun Pub Forum could do so easily. Try that angle. Here is the link: http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=56

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Charlie Flick
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Old 05-24-2008, 03:05 PM
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Wonderful info. I'm looking for some 200 gr projectiles to load the 38/200 S&W round. I ordered some .38 cal 200 Gr bullets, sized .360, but they are tripple grease groove rifle slugs. Cast gas checked. I have a brand new box of 100 that look excellant if anyone can make use of them. Any 38-55 reloaders out there?
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Old 05-24-2008, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by delta-419:
I know that this is a dunb question, but as a shooter, I have been shooting .38 S&W in my British Victory. Is the .38S&W the same round as the 38/200? And is it safe to shoot them in a Victory?
The .38 S&W has a lighter 145-grain bullet versus 200-grain for .38/200. But, it is perfectly safe to shoot. I shoot it alot in my Enfield No. 2 Mk. 1 Revolver.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:03 PM
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Charlie & Bruce,

great pics !!

Here's some photos of a box of South African .38/200 that I got from a friend of mine, Paul Murphy, who is from South Africa. He's a "collector" of bullets and is very knowledgeable when it comes to ballistics..







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Old 05-25-2008, 07:59 AM
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Thanks Linda. Coming from a photographer such as yourself that is a compliment.

I find I take better shots outside. Must be the lighting.

On another note. I've found myself this am walking around saying, "rewolwer". Sounding like an earlier Barbara Walters

I only wish I had bought a lot more of this stuff. It shoots really nice too.
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Old 05-25-2008, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ordnanceguy:
The side of the box says "P.M.P. 811" which indicates Pretoria Metal Pressings. Since the box shows the older designation of .380" MK 2Z, I gather that this ammo was produced between 1965 and 1973, based on Peter's comments.
Pic 2 shows the reverse side of the box. I presume that the language used there is Afrikaans.I don't know what the headstamp is on these cartridges as I did not want to open the sealed box.
Charlie, 1965-1969 would probably be more correct, from 69 to 72 the headstamp had .380 A1 and then .380 S&W rather than MK 2Z. However, I don't know what the boxes said.

Afrikaans it is, but as an Englishman permanently living here don't ask me to start translating generally!

Your headstamp is probably "PMP xx .380 MK2Z" (where xx are the year digits), but sometimes the dots in PMP or the MK were left out.

Peter
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:02 AM
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I just ordered some 160 grn from OWS to play with, I like the Enileds they do look cool
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:20 PM
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papabyrd, here is one of the boxes (packages) we have left over, and it is "embossed" 'FN' on the top lid as you can see if you look carefully.........





If you are interested in it, I'll let it go,send me an e-mail
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:17 PM
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I posted this last week under a new heading but so many are looking at this one I though I would put it here also.Thanks papabyrd
Posted 23 May 2008 01:15 PM
About a week ago I posted a request for info as to were i could get some 38/200 ammo to make some dunny rounds to put in 2 british holster bullet loops. I am building A WW2 handgun display. Well one of the replies I got was from
ButchG17 who said he had a few and would send me some for a small price ( which was too small).Then to top it off he pulled the bullets and fired the hulls so all i have to do is put in a filler and stick the bullet back in.This is a very nice man and i just wanted to let everyone know it. Maybe I can return his kindness one day Thanks very much Butch
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:25 PM
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This place advertises correct bullets for the 38/200. 38 Cal. (38 S&W) : Matts Bullets

I've placed an order and will let you know how they work out. I've contacted PPU a couple times asking that they load some 38/200, which would fit nicely with the other odd calibers they load. Maybe if more people wrote in they would consider the round.
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