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04-09-2008, 07:42 PM
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I recently picked up a M&P model of 1905. I started researching them and while there is alot of info out there its scattered. I was thinking about setting up a database for pre war M&P's. I thought it would be helpful for newbies and non newbies alike. What do you guys think? Feel free to tell me you think its a complete waste of time or if its a good idea..lol
Thanks
Rob
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04-09-2008, 07:42 PM
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I recently picked up a M&P model of 1905. I started researching them and while there is alot of info out there its scattered. I was thinking about setting up a database for pre war M&P's. I thought it would be helpful for newbies and non newbies alike. What do you guys think? Feel free to tell me you think its a complete waste of time or if its a good idea..lol
Thanks
Rob
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04-09-2008, 08:45 PM
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There were a million of them built by 1940.
1,000,000.
You sure you want to try this?
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04-09-2008, 09:03 PM
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That is a lot of them but I'd be willing to try. I wonder how many of these old girls are still out there.
Quote:
Originally posted by SaxonPig:
There were a million of them built by 1940.
1,000,000.
You sure you want to try this?
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04-09-2008, 09:13 PM
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There's a fellow who has written a book on the M&P. I have his name and the book title somewhere. He also sells his book directly. Maybe someone else will recall the author's name and the book title, contact info. If not, maybe I will be able to find my note on it in another computer later in the week.
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04-10-2008, 12:41 AM
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Rob;
I believe you're considering quite an ambitious undertaking. I'm wondering to what end, or purpose, such an excercise would serve? There is, as you know, a great deal of information available on the 1905 Hand Ejector M&P. A plethora of comprehensive data exists in book form, magazine articles and more recently by perspective of contemporary time, here on the Forum as well.
You could certainly learn all that you desire to know about this subject from those resources very quickly, depending upon your level of motivation. If the purpose of compiling a database of the 1905's is to determine survival rates in general or of specific variations, that might be a purposeful objective. I seem to recall Mike Priwer commenting on "survival rates" and he has indeed, devoted significant academic study of those particular revolvers.
Seperating the variations and engineering "changes" might be one way of narrowing the million benchmark of 1940 and developing categorical indices. That is, 1905 1st., 2nd., 3rd., 4th., etc.
In the case of the "Victory" models, this would be redundant since a database already exists and has been compiled and maintained by members of this forum.
Barrel length, caliber variations, square or round butt, fixed sight, adjustable sight or target type and finish would be a whole other enchilada and seems perhaps even more daunting. If you decide to pursue compilation of such data by serial number it would be interesting, but by my reckoning, a herculean task. I hope you're a very young fellow, because it might take a little while to accomplish. Good luck!
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04-10-2008, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Onomea:
There's a fellow who has written a book on the M&P. I have his name and the book title somewhere. He also sells his book directly. Maybe someone else will recall the author's name and the book title, contact info. If not, maybe I will be able to find my note on it in another computer later in the week.
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The name of the book is "America's Right Arm" by Henwood. It is one great book. I list it as one of the must have books in anyones S&W library along with Pate's Handguns of WW2 and SCSW by Supica.
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04-10-2008, 07:10 AM
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I hear ya TJ... John Henwoods book is a "must have". I got my signed copy from Bert Garber @ BSG books. He generaaly has them in stock, and can be emailed at: [email protected]
Best,
David
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04-10-2008, 03:15 PM
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Just curious how big your staff is. Logging the M&P, with its variants, will certainly be more than a full time job for one person. But it will keep you off the streets.
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04-10-2008, 03:49 PM
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If you are a member of the S&WCA, Joe Miller has a very good set of survivor
files, among which are .38 M&P targets, and 32/20 M&P targets. These are all
guns known to exist.
I've long been collecting ,38 M&P targets, and at one point had about 100 of them.
I still have my lists, but its not clear to me exactly what purpose would be
served, with any kind of database.
The underlying problem, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is that 1,000,000
guns were made from 1899 to about 1941. Roy Jinks has all the records, on
microfilm, and he uses them when writing letters. Suppose you got lucky, and
he adopted you, and left you all these records . What would you do with them ?
They are originally hand-written, so they do not lend themselves to automation.
It seems to me that, if there are questions about these guns, one of the important
questions would be: how many were shipped as targets ? Its doubtful that anyone,
as a collector, is going to come across all 1,000,000 guns, so the next best
thing is to go through all the records, counting the number of targets shipped.
The problem with this approach is that the records do not always specify the
gun configuration. I've lettered several targets , for which the records are
incomplete.
I'd be interested in learning what it is you would do with any data you gathered .
What would be the purpose of this project ?
Later, Mike Priwer
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04-10-2008, 05:15 PM
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Thanks, TJ. That's the book I was thinking of. Don't know how extensive it is on the prewars, but assume it would be a good place to start.
Quote:
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Roy Jinks has all the records, on microfilm... They are originally hand-written, so they do not lend themselves to automation.
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Actually, there is technology -- I guess software combined with optical scanning --that can automate this now. E.g., the national census data is now converted from paper records to computer files using this technology. Then again, it is handwriting, not just paper (or microfilm). But I suspect it is possible nowadays to automate the conversion of these records to computer files. I know that there are optical scanners used to read handwritten postal addresses today. I bet it happens, the conversion of the written S&W shipping records to computer files, if not in the next coupla years, further out.
Sure hope so!
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04-10-2008, 05:59 PM
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Arlo
One of the problems with the records is that a lot of them are not
even readable to the human eye. It is not uncommon that Roy can not
read them , so I have to wonder what kind of translation would occur.
I can tell you that, very recently, I had the occasion to go through
the West Point records from 1900. They are all automated, but they are
pdf files. With the new Acrobat 8 reader, they are searchable, but then
they were type-written in the first place.
I'm not so optimistic that we will see the historical S&W records in
machine-recognizable form. Among other issues is the long-standing
concern about inappropriate people having access to the records, which would
span a whole bunch of faked-up guns suddenly appearing on the market. This
has been a long-standing concern, and I think is, in no small way, part of
the reason for the delay in automating the records.
Later, Mike
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04-10-2008, 07:28 PM
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My thinking was to try to document as many surviving guns as possible. In what condition they survive, any modifications that were made to them over the years, etc. Maybe show examples of completely original guns and also guns that have been modified.
I was thinking that any data I collected would be shared. Maybe put the data on a website.
This project idea doesn't really serve any purpose other than sharing info about these guns.
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04-10-2008, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
... I'm not so optimistic that we will see the historical S&W records in
machine-recognizable form. Among other issues is the long-standing concern about inappropriate people having access to the records, which would span a whole bunch of faked-up guns suddenly appearing on the market. This has been a long-standing concern, and I think is, in no small way, part of
the reason for the delay in automating the records...
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Good point, Mike. I had not even thought of that. I was reflecting, tho, that if the records were accessible to all on the ineternet, for example, that the likely result would be no need for a letter from Roy/the S&W historian, and how I would miss those letters...
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