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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 09-29-2007, 07:40 AM
Frank from jersey Frank from jersey is offline
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Does anyone know anything about this cartridge tested by the US Gov't in the 1906 handguns tests? It was used in the 1st Model Hand Ejector Triple Lock.See Stand Cat of S&W Pges 158 and 159. Thanks Frank Jr.
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Old 09-29-2007, 07:40 AM
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Does anyone know anything about this cartridge tested by the US Gov't in the 1906 handguns tests? It was used in the 1st Model Hand Ejector Triple Lock.See Stand Cat of S&W Pges 158 and 159. Thanks Frank Jr.
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Old 09-29-2007, 10:05 AM
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Yes, what do you want to know about it? Headstamps are all dated April 1906. I know of at least 4 different styles of brass/bullets, etc. Examples are hard to come by. S&W called it the .45 S&W Special cartridge and chambered a small number of early T-Locks in this caliber. The test trials report gives info. on the procedures used. S&W was hoping the new S&W .44 Special cartridge would be adopted by the Ordnance Dept as the new big bore military round to replace the .38 Long Colt round, but military thinking was that the old .45 Colt round could be redesigned to better adapt to a new handguns for the military and the Ordnance District came up with the new round and it came to be called .45 Frankfort, after the Frankfort Arsenal where it was made. If you have an early T-Lock with a serial numer beginning with zero or a serial number under # 20 approx., you may have one of the guns chambered for the .45 Frankfort ( .45 S&W Special). There are no caliber markings on these guns, so you can only tell by chambering a .45 Frankfort round in the cylinder, by process of elimination trying various .44 & .45 rounds. ( .44 Spl. is loose, .45 ACP falls in too far, .45 Colt won't chamber, etc. ). Ed.
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Old 09-29-2007, 10:18 AM
Frank from jersey Frank from jersey is offline
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Thank you for your response on this. I was wondering if its anything like this 45 Special
cowboy load that I heard a few shooters talking about. You wouldn't know if anyone has drawing on the .45 Frankfort as most "new" ideas seem to
reinvent themselves from old ones. Thanks Frank Jr.
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:23 AM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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Howdy

The 45 Cowboy Special is a brand new cartridge that was invented by Adirondack Jack (I don't know his real name) just about a year or two ago. It basically reproduces the powder capacity of the 45 ACP round, but has a standard 45 Colt style rim. It differs from the 45 AR because it does not have the 45AR type thick rim.

The purpose of the 45 Cowboy Special is to provide the 45 shooter who wants to down load the 45 Colt round with a smaller case that will burn small powder charges more efficiently. The case capacity of the 45 Colt does not take well to light loads. The 45 Cowboy Special is shorter and has less case capacity than the 45 Schofield.

45 Cowboy Special
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Old 09-29-2007, 03:00 PM
Frank from jersey Frank from jersey is offline
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Thanks Driftwood I was wondering how close the .45 Cowboy Special is to the .45 Frankfort.
Any place I can go to see a set of drawing of both? Thanks Frank Jr.
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Old 09-29-2007, 03:08 PM
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Is that Frankfort Arsenal, or Frankford Arsenal?

T-Star
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Old 09-29-2007, 05:33 PM
waelkhntr waelkhntr is offline
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Texas Star,
It is the Frankford Arsenal.

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Old 09-29-2007, 05:58 PM
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SO
If one of those T.L. were found,can the round be found or duplicated with components in a reload??

PackN
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Old 09-30-2007, 04:46 PM
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Any thing can be duplicated. A custom ammo. maker can make you up a batch of .45 Frankford ( .45 Special) brass and you can load your own using ,45 Colt bullets. Ed.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:51 AM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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I just got an e-mail from Adirondack Jack, the inventor of the 45 Cowboy Special round. The 45CS is exactly the same length as a 45ACP, but it has the same rim configuration as a 45 Colt.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:40 PM
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The "new" 45 Cowboy Special sounds oddly like either the old 450 Colt or 45 Webley rounds.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:18 AM
Frank from jersey Frank from jersey is offline
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Thank guys for the info. Does Midway or any of the places that sells reloading supplies carry the .45 Cowboy Special brass? I have a Sheriff's Model SAA in . 45 ACP that will not chamber .45 Auto Rim but if the .45CS is the length of the.45ACP .45 CS should work.Thanks agaim. Frank Jr.P.S. Sorry about the misspelling of the .45 Frankford name I should know better I almost live right across the river from the place.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:47 PM
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Interesting thread.........
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Old 12-15-2018, 08:51 PM
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But sort of old.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walnutred View Post
The "new" 45 Cowboy Special sounds oddly like either the old 450 Colt or 45 Webley rounds.
……..or the older lighter original .45AR load.(?)

Dale
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walnutred View Post
The "new" 45 Cowboy Special sounds oddly like either the old 450 Colt or 45 Webley rounds.
The 450 Colt/Boxer is ~ .685 overall case length.

455 MK-II ~ .747

45 Web ~.825

455 MK-I ~.885

Cowboy Spl ~ .893 same as 45 Acp and AR

45 S&W Spl/45 Frankford Model 1906 had two OAL case sizes: .919 & .923

45 Schofield ~ 1.100

45 Colt ~1.280

Rem-UMC 45 Short Colt ~ 1.102 (this is not the Schofield, it has a smaller rim diameter. And no military counterpart.)
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
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……..or the older lighter original .45AR load.(?)

Dale
Correct. Usually loaded lighter but could be loaded to exactly duplicate the 45 AR.

And also can be loaded to duplicate the 45 ACP. But that defeats the purpose of the 45 CS for use in cowboy matches.
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:50 AM
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Couldn't you just trim back regular .45 Colt brass to the length of .45 ACP? Seems like that would be the simplest way to do it? Or would the case walls then be too thick to seat the .45 Colt bullets?

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Old 12-16-2018, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les.b View Post
Couldn't you just trim back regular .45 Colt brass to the length of .45 ACP? Seems like that would be the simplest way to do it? Or would the case walls then be too thick to seat the .45 Colt bullets?

Best Regards, Les
I was thinking something along the same lines...…..unless they were worried about someone trying to stuff a full .45Colt load in the shorter/trimmed headstamped .45Colt cases......and possibly increasing pressure to an unsafe level with them?

Maybe it is a proper headstamp thing?

Dale
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:37 AM
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I don't see the logic of these shorter .45 loads. The gun adopted would have probably been the Colt New Service, which indeed was adopted as the Model of 1909, or the new S&W TL. The guns were easily capable of taking longer brass and the solution was to use the .45 Colt, but with a wider rim to facilitate extraction in DA revolvers. And that is what the Army did: they made the .45 Colt M-1909 ctg., used until enough M-1911 .45 autos were available. But they loaded it light, to 725 FPS, probably to limit recoil bothering the average soldier.

I don't shoot in CAS matches, but think they ought to use cartridges available in the era they profess to emulate. Doing more smacks too much of gamesmanship, not of reality-based gunfighting skills ca. 1880.

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Old 12-16-2018, 07:35 AM
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Texas Star, you got that right.

Like all firearms competitive games I've participated in, eventually they all get corrupted from the original intentions.

Cowboy shooting is no exception. Soon with all the exceptions made to the original rules, it all comes down to those with the most money and trick stuff. The most competitive are those with the 'race guns' as funny as that may sound for 19th century hardware!

And the mouse fart loads they use wouldn't even knock over a real bad guy.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:29 AM
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Interesting old thread subject matter,I have seen nearly every shooting sport come to that very situation of where you guys are talking about. I went to a range a few miles from here where they were trying to get a HS aged group of kids into clay shooting .i was shocked these kids parents had gone out and spent literally thousands on guns,vests ect .I though wow I shot my first clay with a H&R single shot and thought I was in high cotton because mine was name brand my best buddy used a bolt action 16 gauge .We weren't realy poor or I guess we were to dumb to know it if we were.

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Old 12-16-2018, 06:30 PM
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I had one of those Rem-Umc short .45Colt cases. Schofield length, narrow rim, balloon head, no extractor groove. Just said "Rem-Umc 45Colt" on the headstamp. It was nickel plated.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:20 PM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is offline
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For every "Gamer" in cowboy shooting there are 2 or 3 that prefer the full power or close to full power loads. My personal "Light" load for 45 Colt was a duplicate of 45 S&W Schofield loading.

The ammo the OP was talking about went into production as the "45 US" round, 230 grain round lead nose bullet at 810 fps. This is what Colonel Thompson base the 45ACP on. And that is what I used for Cowboy Action Shooting in my 45 revolvers and 1911's for Wild Bunch.

The 45 Frankfort or 45 US was the issue ammo for the 1909 revolvers but would fit the officers personal SAA's or Schofields (if anyone still carried one!) I have examples of factory ammo with lead and with jacketed bullets, my jacketed ammo has a 1920 or 1921 headstamp, the lead has 1912 headstamp. Of course they are both marked FA!

I bought out a fellow shooters supply of modern 45 Schofield hand loads using Starline Brass. I got 700 rounds for $100. I have fired it in Rossi 92 Carbines and Marlin 1894 rifles, and several revolvers in 45 Colt. It is made to 45 Schofield length, but has a 45 Colt rim. In other words it is 45 Frankfort/45 US!

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Old 12-16-2018, 08:18 PM
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"The 45 Frankfort or 45 US was the issue ammo for the 1909 revolvers but would fit the officers personal SAA's or Schofields (if anyone still carried one!)"

Let me clarify some confusion. There is no cartridge officially named the .45 Frankford. A small number of short-cased (ca. 0.92") rimmed .45 cartridges loaded with smokeless powder were made by Frankford Arsenal for use only in the 1906-07 Army Pistol trials. Most collectors today call it the .45 Model of 1906 cartridge, but in fact there was never an official name assigned to it by the Army. The Frankford Arsenal production of these short .45 cartridges was of such poor quality that those submitting guns for the trial received permission to use similar cartridges specially made by UMC. There was an idea at that time that some inventors might want to use that same short .45 cartridge for semiautomatic pistols entered in the trial but none did, so they were used only for Colt and S&W revolver submissions. S&W called it the .45 Special, but the cartridge was never manufactured by anyone in commercial quantities.

The cartridge used in the Model 1909 Colt revolver (a slight modification of the.45 Colt New Service revolver) was named by the Army as the ".45 Revolver Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909" It is essentially identical to the much older .45 Colt cartridge, except it has a slightly larger rim diameter than the .45 Colt to facilitate extraction when used in hand ejector revolvers. It was made only by Frankford Arsenal. It bears no relationship to the so-called ".45 Frankford" short .45 cartridge of 1906. The Colt Model of 1909 revolver and its ammunition had a very limited service history, primarily used only in the Philippine campaign against the Moros as a stopgap measure pending official adoption of the .45 M1911 pistol. The Model of 1909 cartridge was impractical for use in the old Colt SAA revolvers due to overlapping rim interference, but the .45 Colt cartridge (or the shorter .45 Schofield/S&W) could be used in M1909 revolvers.

BTW, the very first .45 cartridges made for use in semiautomatic pistols were hand made by Colt, modifying .45 Colt cases. Not too successful as the cartridge was so long.

Last edited by DWalt; 12-17-2018 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:05 PM
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There is more info in an older thread; ".45 'Short' Colt" with a lot of good comentary by DWalt..............
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