The Really Old Chief's Special Thread

[Hondo44]

That's a beauty! Model of 1953, first to have a real J frame size grip. '54 is about as good an estimate as I anyone can make.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Love these early Baby 'J's. Supposedly the square butt was introduced c. 1952. I don't imagine there were any made on the Baby J frame. I'm thinking square butt introduction had to have been introduced simultaneously with the standard J frame with the larger, egg shaped trigger guard.

Anyone have insight on this?

There was at least one!
See Posts #10 and #16 here-
A Scarce Li'l Baby.....

[mooshoo]

love those chiefs, the perfect friend and like a good friend there always there when you need them!

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by handejector

There was at least one!
See Posts #10 and #16 here-
A Scarce Li'l Baby.....

Lee,
Ask, and you shall receive. Thanks! It's great to pin that down! Rare, rare, rare.
Neat story. I've always said, a "good show" is not always relative to its size but more to what you find. Do you think the seller had any idea what he had?

[Goony]

Got to keep a thread such as this alive. Here's my three digit serial number Chiefs Special.



Also, a couple folks along the way asked qustions and so far as I can see never got responses.

First, from #148 in this thread:

Originally Posted by majake

I got this from my grandfather who was a sherriff's deputy. It says airweight on the barrel and the ser# is 452xx. Im suspecting it's pretty old. Is it safe to shoot?

From the photo, your revolver appears to be an early Airweight with its original alloy cylinder. You will typically see a caution with regards to these that they are unsafe to shoot, although I cannot verify any instance in which one has actually "blown up." At the very least, now that you are informed of the potential risk involved, if you do nevertheless choose to shoot it, be sure you are using a mild load - absolutely no +P or anything like that in this gun!

Posting #97 also I don't think ever received any answer:

Originally Posted by Rikkn

Here is one I dug out, this has me stumped - I cannot date it as the SCS&W book does not tell of one in the gray box, and the s/n 98J839 is not there either. This one is unfired, 36 no dash, I am guessing mid 60's. Anyone have a clue ? What is value of one like this nowadays ?
Thanks, Rick

That actually is datable from the SCSW - it's one of the infamous "floating J" serial numbered guns, and was most likely shipped in late 1971. I'll leave it to one of our resident experts on S&W packaging to comment on just how unusual the gray box may be and if it enhances the value much above the more common blue box.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Goony

From the photo, your revolver appears to be an early Airweight with its original alloy cylinder. You will typically see a caution with regards to these that they are unsafe to shoot, although I cannot verify any instance in which one has actually "blown up." At the very least, now that you are informed of the potential risk involved, if you do nevertheless choose to shoot it, be sure you are using a mild load - absolutely no +P or anything like that in this gun!

To me, majake's gun appears to have a steel cylinder. That would be a very late gun for the aluminum cyl.

[Oyeboteb]

I can finally join this Thread!

I can not post an image presently but will offer a short describe -

S&W 5 Screw, Snubby, Half-Round Front Sight, .38 Special, 5 Shot Cylinder, Flat Latch, Serial Number on Butt, underside of Barrel, and, Cylinder Face, is 979.

I can not access my big S&W Book at this time...can anyone tell me roughly when this one was made?


Thanks!

[ButchG17]

Yup, this is a great thread!

Here's my offering....my 1960 vintage Model 38. I bought it well used in 1980, and it been in my pocket near every day since then. I recently added a laser grip though, the sights seem to be shrinking.

[Goony]

Originally Posted by handejector

To me, majake's gun appears to have a steel cylinder. That would be a very late gun for the aluminum cyl.

Lee, I agree that at 452XX it would certainly have to be one of the very last ones, but there were some made up into the 40K serial number range, and it still looks to me as if that could be an alloy cylinder....

I'd like to have been able to see the other side to determine if there was a "bug" screw.

Maybe even after all this time, majake will weigh back in to settle the matter.

Even if it is a steel cylinder, I'd still maintain that putting +P ammo through it wouldn't be advisable.

Additional Edits: I downloaded that photo and manipulated and enhanced it by various means, and will now concede that it is in fact a steel cylinder. Just didn't look that way to me at first. One of the perils in living in a high definition world with older, low definition eyes....

With regard to James' post following this one, when I (too casually) looked at that photo, the gun didn't appear to be nickeled, but the label in the other photo is marked "N" for finish, and of course you are absolutely correct.

Maybe I should just stop responding to questions, as I don't lately seem to be getting any of the answers right.

[JSR III]

That actually is datable from the SCSW - it's one of the infamous "floating J" serial numbered guns, and was most likely shipped in late 1971. I'll leave it to one of our resident experts on S&W packaging to comment on just how unusual the gray box may be and if it enhances the value much above the more common blue box.

The box is gray/grey because the gun is nickel.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

I can finally join this Thread!

I can not post an image presently but will offer a short describe -

S&W 5 Screw, Snubby, Half-Round Front Sight, .38 Special, 5 Shot Cylinder, Flat Latch, Serial Number on Butt, underside of Barrel, and, Cylinder Face, is 979.

I can not access my big S&W Book at this time...can anyone tell me roughly when this one was made?


Thanks!

I don't even have to look that one up, 1st year, 1950; maybe 1st month.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Goony

Lee, I agree that at that serial number range it would certainly have to be one of the very last ones, but there were some made up into the 40K serial number range, and it still looks to me as if that could be an alloy cylinder....

I'd like to have been able to see the other side to determine if there was a "bug" screw.

Maybe even after all this time, majake will weigh back in to settle the matter.

The cylinder matches the barrel and yoke quite well, I'd have to say steel.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Researcher1

I picked up a chief's special tonight with a low 300XX serial number. Can someone please tell me when this gun was made. Thank you. It has a flat latch and serrated front ramp. Everything is matching on it and it is in very good shape. I kinda bought it on the spur of the moment not really knowing much about it except it was probably relatively old with the serial number. The gun is in very good shape other than a little blueing wear on the cylinder and one grip has a slight nick in it. I got it for $195. How did I do?

Welcome to the forum. I don't see that you ever got an answer. Frankly that price is a bargain for any Chief of any vintage in that condition. For that "Baby" Chief made in 1953 it's less than 1/2 price, sometimes only a 3rd.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I don't even have to look that one up, 1st year, 1950; maybe 1st month.

Thank you Hondo44..!


Is there an opinion among informed Collectors of these early Chief Specials, on when or roughly what serial Number the Half-Round Front Sight was succeeded by the Ramp Sight?

[Garywapx]

This one is from 1963 grips are numbered to the gun.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Thank you Hondo44..!


Is there an opinion among informed Collectors of these early Chief Specials, on when or roughly what serial Number the Half-Round Front Sight was succeeded by the Ramp Sight?

I have never found the answer more clearly defined than right here in this thread. As with most changes there is a transition period over time because the guns were not completed or shipped in serial number order.

Therefore in this thread I find the high number round sight #'d 11,6XX, but most below the 4600 range. I find the lowest #'d smooth ramp (the 1st style ramp) 466X up as high as 9108 and lowest #'d serrated ramp sited guns from 27XXX and up. So both round sites and smooth ramps at least mixed in a transiton period of 466X to 11,6XX.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by smith17

Paul:
Is yours not a pre-12 with the C prefix?

On another forum recently, the bug screw monicker was thoroughly discussed and I believe it was decided that it was the large upper screw that was actually called the bug screw as it is shorter than the others and was a bugger to get threaded. The smaller screw was probably to keep the bug screw from unthreading. As I remember the discussion.
Ed

Just the opposite; the large short screw is the upper sideplate screw (most often seen w/o the smaller screw) and notched for locking in place by the smaller or "bug" screw when it is present (as shown below).

[/QUOTE]

[JSR III]

I don't even have to look that one up, 1st year, 1950; maybe 1st month.

Actually, the dates are deceiving. #6 was the first "J" frame made and is listed as 10/27/1950, #972 is listed as 11/19/1951, a little over a year later.

I would think that 979 would be around the same timeframe, but only a letter will confirm that.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by JSR III

Actually, the dates are deceiving. #6 was the first "J" frame made and is listed as 10/27/1950, #972 is listed as 11/19/1951, a little over a year later.

I would think that 979 would be around the same timeframe, but only a letter will confirm that.

Hi Bob,
Yes, you're no doubt probably right. I was answering his question literally since he asked when it was made. The difference of course being Smith's "batch assembly" system and the "1st in the vault, last out" syndrome which can delay shipment by years sometimes.

The 'date made' is unconfirmable albeit the one I prefer to shipping date.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I have never found the answer more clearly defined than right here in this thread. As with most changes there is a transition period over time because the guns were not completed or shipped in serial number order.

Therefore in this thread I find the high number round sight #'d 11,6XX, but most below the 4600 range. I find the lowest #'d smooth ramp (the 1st style ramp) 466X up as high as 9108 and lowest #'d serrated ramp sited guns from 27XXX and up. So both round sites and smooth ramps at least mixed in a transiton period of 466X to 11,6XX.

Thank you Hondo44,


Interesting and fun...

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by JSR III

Actually, the dates are deceiving. #6 was the first "J" frame made and is listed as 10/27/1950, #972 is listed as 11/19/1951, a little over a year later.

I would think that 979 would be around the same timeframe, but only a letter will confirm that.

Is anything known about what happened to Serial Nos. 1 - 5?


Thanks for the additional info on mine...much appreciated!

Inferences or peramiters of when made...Letters which can say when shipped...shipping dates of course liable to have been subject to what was elected for an Order from whatever array of ready Stock or delays in completing individual examples needing correction or something...all tolled late '51 for mine, as an educated guess, is plenty close-enough for me.

Maybe someday someone will begin a 'Registry' for early 'Lettered' Chief's Specials, and, we can see how shipping dates relate to Serial Nos. over a longer span of time.

So far, looks like it took about a year for the first Thousand to be made?

[Green Frog]

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Is anything known about what happened to Serial Nos. 1 - 5?


Thanks for the additional info on mine...much appreciated!

Inferences or peramiters of when made...Letters which can say when shipped...shipping dates of course liable to have been subject to what was elected for an Order from whatever array of ready Stock or delays in completing individual examples needing correction or something...all tolled late '51 for mine, as an educated guess, is plenty close-enough for me.

Maybe someday someone will begin a 'Registry' for early 'Lettered' Chief's Specials, and, we can see how shipping dates relate to Serial Nos. over a longer span of time.

So far, looks like it took about a year for the first Thousand to be made?

I wonder about that too. Perhaps the first 5 were prototype shop guns, built for testing and never meant for circulation??

This is a good idea, and I wouldn't be surprised to find someone is already doing this. With the improving access to stored data @ S&W, perhaps the next edition of SCSW or some other book will have it.

I think this estimate might be a little low due to the vagaries of mfg vs shipment dates. This little gun seems to have been pretty popular from its introduction. I may be wrong, but I'd guess quite a few more than 1000 came out that first full year of production.

Just FYI, BC # 42287 is still a true Baby, but has flat latch and serrated ramp front sight. How many years (total did they make the BC?)

Froggie

[Green Frog]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Just the opposite; the large short screw is the upper sideplate screw (most often seen w/o the smaller screw) and notched for locking in place by the smaller or "bug" screw when it is present (as shown below).

I believe "bug screw" is a fairly common term among machinists to describe the bug-like appearance of a second, smaller screw used just for locking its larger partner in a specific postion. In the case of the Air Weight, I would think use of a bug screw would have probably been useful to discourage cranking down too hard on that top screw and stripping out the threads in the aluminum frame... JMHO.

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I have never found the answer more clearly defined than right here in this thread. As with most changes there is a transition period over time because the guns were not completed or shipped in serial number order.

Therefore in this thread I find the high number round sight #'d 11,6XX, but most below the 4600 range. I find the lowest #'d smooth ramp (the 1st style ramp) 466X up as high as 9108 and lowest #'d serrated ramp sited guns from 27XXX and up. So both round sites and smooth ramps at least mixed in a transiton period of 466X to 11,6XX.

OK, but what happened to the sights between numbers 11,6XX and 27XXX? Were they still non-serrated ramps, back to round, or what? Also, I don't have my SCSW with me right now... what was the last date and the highest known SN for the change from Baby Chief to the "full sized" J-frame Chief Special? Was it as early as the time the Model 1953 I-frames were being discontinued, or what? Somebody oughta write a book! (Hint to Hondo44)


Froggie

[handejector]

Originally Posted by smith17

Paul:
Is yours not a pre-12 with the C prefix?

On another forum recently, the bug screw monicker was thoroughly discussed and I believe it was decided that it was the large upper screw that was actually called the bug screw as it is shorter than the others and was a bugger to get threaded. The smaller screw was probably to keep the bug screw from unthreading. As I remember the discussion.
Ed

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Just the opposite; the large short screw is the upper sideplate screw (most often seen w/o the smaller screw) and notched for locking in place by the smaller or "bug" screw when it is present (as shown below).

Originally Posted by Green Frog

I believe "bug screw" is a fairly common term among machinists to describe the bug-like appearance of a second, smaller screw used just for locking its larger partner in a specific postion. In the case of the Air Weight, I would think use of a bug screw would have probably been useful to discourage cranking down too hard on that top screw and stripping out the threads in the aluminum frame... JMHO.

"Bug Screw" is a rather ambiguous term. You won't even find a definition in the American Machinists' Handbook.
So, we are left with traditional usage and colloquial definitions of the term.
All my life, I have heard it used for screws that lock other screws or parts. Decades ago I first heard it used to describe the screws that lock the trigger guard screws of Mauser rifles.

Roy Jinks, now the factory Historian and formerly Production Manager of S&W calls the large upper sideplate screw the "bug screw", so we can assume that terminology is acceptable at the factory!

Parts catalogs of the pre-war era call them:
Plate Screw (large head)
Plate Screw (small head)

One can see how the factory personnel would prefer 'bug screw' to 'large upper sideplate screw' for conversing day in and day out.
This is a reasonable application of the term.
Note that it functions in a manner different from the other sideplate screws, and most screws in general. Think about it- most screws go through one part and into another which is threaded. This upper sideplate screw does not. It actually clamps or locks the upper sideplate corner in position by threading directly into the frame and clamping the sideplate with its large overhanging head that descends into the countersink.

The gun pictured above has:

a bug screw that has a bug screw.

[crsides]

I think some of the confusion comes from the use of "UPPER" side plate screw, a term we all associate with the large head screw seen on all 5 screw guns.

Now comes along a second screw which is even higher "UP" than the upper side plate screw. So the confusion may come from just which screw on the airweight 37 pictured is the "upper" side plate screw.

My vote for bug screw goes to the smaller screw (the most upper one).


Charlie

[handejector]

Originally Posted by crsides

My vote for bug screw goes to the smaller screw (the most upper one).


Charlie

Let me know when you tell Roy and the factory oldtimers- I wanna be there.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by handejector

Let me know when you tell Roy and the factory oldtimers- I wanna be there.

This is probably an issue about which we'll all have to agree to dis-agree.

I'd like to be there when Roy and the factory oldtimers tell Supica & Nahas, and Browning employees; reference 'Bug Screw' with illustration, pg. 409, SCSW 3rd edition.

[JSR III]

Is anything known about what happened to Serial Nos. 1 - 5?

#1 is on display at the S&W factory museum IIRC. 2 & 3 were shipped out of the country, # 4 was being chased by a friend of mine and #5 was shipped to a writer at one of the gun magazines.

I would guess that most of the first 100 are buried deep in private collections and won't see the light of day for years to come.

I started a thread about them a while back asking for photos of early Chief Specials and there were several 5 digit, a couple 4 digit and maybe one three digit. IIRC one member posted about 2 from the first 100 but that was all.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

This is probably an issue about which we'll all have to agree to dis-agree.

I'd like to be there when Roy and the factory oldtimers tell Supica & Nahas, and Browning employees; reference 'Bug Screw' with illustration, pg. 409, SCSW 3rd edition.

There's NO doubt the little locking screw is a bug screw.
It is.
That's a fact.

My post was to explain that Roy and factory workers considered the upper sideplate screw a bug screw, and it fits the locking definition of a bug screw.

I don't see much to disagree about. If they used the term, they have to be right- they made the gun and they made the screw. If they had called it a doohickey, it would be a doohickey, no matter what we called it.

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by handejector

they made the gun and they made the screw. If they had called it a doohickey, it would be a doohickey, no matter what we called it.

Question about those doohickeys if you please

I have seen some of those old pictures that show numerous screw machines on the S&W shop floor from back in the day.
Is it safe to say that S&W manufactured their own threaded fasteners (screws if you will) and if the did, these were a cut thread, correct.

Has Smith ever used a fastener with rolled thread?? Any insight on if / when commercially purchased rolled thread screws might have been incorporated or do they still use a cut thread ?

[bmcgilvray]

Doohickey works and is always appropriate for any little appendage, protuberance, appurtenance, attachment, thingy or indeed, thingamabob.

Bug is shorter though.

[bettis1]

I think we're finally getting to the bottom of this dilemma. It is called, or they are called "Bug screws" because they BUG people!

I propose calling the smaller screw the "Locking Screw" and the larger screw the "Screw that is locked". Anyone confused there???

Bob

[bmcgilvray]

Hi Bob and Merry Christmas to you.

Of course you know that we will now have to call all the other screws the "screws that are not locked."

I'm still trying to hang with all these technical terms.

[Oyeboteb]

Originally Posted by JSR III

#1 is on display at the S&W factory museum IIRC. 2 & 3 were shipped out of the country, # 4 was being chased by a friend of mine and #5 was shipped to a writer at one of the gun magazines.

I would guess that most of the first 100 are buried deep in private collections and won't see the light of day for years to come.

I started a thread about them a while back asking for photos of early Chief Specials and there were several 5 digit, a couple 4 digit and maybe one three digit. IIRC one member posted about 2 from the first 100 but that was all.

Thanks JSR III, good to know the first few are sort of accounted for.


Seems like as is so often the case, the earlier or earliest designs of a given production model are often the most charming.

I always liked the Chief's Special, but like the half-Round Front Sight ones best of all.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by handejector

There's NO doubt the little locking screw is a bug screw.
It is.
That's a fact.

My post was to explain that Roy and factory workers considered the upper sideplate screw a bug screw, and it fits the locking definition of a bug screw.

I don't see much to disagree about. If they used the term, they have to be right- they made the gun and they made the screw. If they had called it a doohickey, it would be a doohickey, no matter what we called it.

No, I don't disagree that they have the right to call it anything they want including a "doohickey" since they made it and thank you for that historical perspective and technically correctness.

But that the upper side plate screw "fits the locking definition of a bug screw" which is a screw that locks in place a larger screw...can we agree to disagree there?

I admit I'd rather err on the side of clarity to my reader by using the SCSW explanation and hope you won't begrudge me that with the qualifier that Lee's official 'call' is "a bug screw that has a bug screw".

Peace?

[donniedee]

love the ol chiefs

[deserttrans]

Picked this up today and was needing help on it's Birthday? Excellent condition, hardly a mark on it. Ser# 69J88.

[JSR III]

Just a guesstimate but I would think late 60's or early 70's.

[Hondo44]

Very nice acquisition! I agree with JSR III. If the stocks are numbered to the gun which I have no doubt, it's no earlier than c. '68 when the diamond stocks ended.

When it was made and when it was shipped will most likely differ somewhat. The 1st can't be verified but of course a letter can confirm the latter.

[deserttrans]

Thanks for the great info. The stocks are numbered to the revolver. The manual is date 3-67. Is the 3 inch barrel a lower production for the most part? I have not seen many with the 3 inch barrel. Your help and comments are greatly appreciated.

[Goony]

Serial number 69J88 should've shipped in 1971.

[deserttrans]

Thanks again!!

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by deserttrans

Thanks for the great info. The stocks are numbered to the revolver. The manual is date 3-67. Is the 3 inch barrel a lower production for the most part? I have not seen many with the 3 inch barrel. Your help and comments are greatly appreciated.

Although the tapered barrel 3" guns showed up early Dec. 1950, 2nd month of production, they are far outnumbered by the 2". But with their c. 15 year longer production, they in turn outnumber the 3" heavy barrel introduced in '67 as the 36-1, at least in my experience. However the rare 3" targets are Mod 36-1s w/HB.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

But that the upper side plate screw "fits the locking definition of a bug screw" which is a screw that locks in place a larger screw...can we agree to disagree there?

Peace?

We can.
Bug screws do lock other screws. They also lock other parts. Apparently, S&W's personnel thought they locked the upper sideplate corner.
I was surprised the Machinist's Handbook did not define the term.

[handejector]

Today I stumbled across something I had forgotten about.
While looking for another Engineering order, I saw this one.
From Neal & Jinks, Rev. Ed., page 237.

Remember, the Engineering orders in N&J are from a factory engineer's notebook, and were recorded at the time. So, we know that the factory called the upper sideplate screw a "bug screw" at least back to 1943.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by handejector

Today I stumbled across something I had forgotten about.
While looking for another Engineering order, I saw this one.
From Neal & Jinks, Rev. Ed., page 237.

Remember, the Engineering orders in N&J are from a factory engineer's notebook, and were recorded at the time. So, we know that the factory called the upper sideplate screw a "bug screw" at least back to 1943.

HE, thanks for that although I took your word for it. Did you happen to find any Engineering orders in N&J referring to what the factory called the "bug screw" that locks the "bug screw"?

Thanks,

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Did you happen to find any Engineering orders in N&J referring to what the factory called the "bug screw" that locks the "bug screw"?

nope.
They stop at 48-49 except for a few grip notations for 51.

I'm not going to let this bug me or screw with my mind.
Could it be the "bug screw's bug screw"?

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by handejector

nope.
They stop at 48-49 except for a few grip notations for 51.

I'm not going to let this bug me or screw with my mind.
Could it be the "bug screw's bug screw"?

That's too bad, I wonder if Roy has more insight on post '51 or post "airweight" factory inside nomenclature. As I said earlier I'm happy to use your "bug screw that locks the bug screw". I don't think we'll hear different. I won't let it "bug" me either, in fact I find it to be one of many of those interesting S&W collecting sidebars to 'kick around'.

[Elroy]

Would this pre-36 Chief Special have RIGHT HAND ejector rod thread??

Originally Posted by Elroy

Serial #484xx would date to what ?? '54 ??

A 4 screw Chief Special. Serrated ramp with the long guard.

The ejector needs to come apart and I need confirmation on what hand thread. I'm thinking it's RIGHT HAND but boy is it tight. Before I get real serious with it I want to make sure I'm turning it in the correct direction.

Surely one of you guys can confirm thread hand. Thank you kindly in advance

[mbliss57]

I picked one up at a show yesterday.. 5 screw with round trigger guard but ramp sight and raised cylinder release. '52-'53